Tongues: church's stand

[Nick9]

Joysong, you brought up very valid points. As you said that discernment is critically necessary, but speaking in tongue will not harm anyone. If the person is faking it, the only one who is harmed spiritually is the faker himself.

Therefore, about speaking in tongue, the least of the gifts from Holy Spirit, I really don’t see the reason to fuss about it.

I once heard a teaching tape said that Satan wanted us to doubt any gift from the Holy Spirit. He likes to put doubt in people’s minds so the gifts won’t be used. As far as my understanding, speak in tongue is mainly praising God. Satan won’t want that to happen.

It does seem that the speaking in tongues will not harm anyone, but I wonder if this is always the case. I am from a non-Catholic family and my mother came to church with me for a period of time once. One of the things which put her off, however, was the displays of some of the members of our prayer group. There was ‘resting’ in the Spirit and tongues and she didn’t like it at all, and then she stopped coming with me. Just a thought.

 

[Joysong]

Nick9:

However, people in our parish say that everyone can pray in tongues and all you have to do is to start making the sounds, as if it is not a special gift at all. I am left thinking that by their definition I do pray in tongues and should carry on ‘making the sounds’, while at the same time feeling a bit daft. As part of my discernment and because I said I was lost as to God’s will, I was advised to start praying in tongues for 5 minutes and work up to an hour after a month. I have not even attempted this.

Nick, good for you! Anyone can formulate sounds and think it is prayer. Not so. Any true prayer begins deep in one’s spirit and it doesn’t have to be in another language. There is a ‘groaning’ of petition that is often wordless when one is in pain or sorrow, too deep to even voice. There is also high praise that is so exuberant that words would interfere with the glory felt in the soul.

If the Holy Spirit moves the person to pray in tongues, there is a sort of unction that is felt interiorly. Without that unction, you may be only mumbling glossalalia without truly praying. So unless you feel a special call to pray in another tongue, just honor God with what He has given you, using all of your own mental capabilities and strength of personal prayer. He does hear you!

Carole

PS. Thanks for your kind words above.

 

[Nick9]

That is actually a liturgical abuse (to the best of my knowledge) and probably needs to be reported to the local bishop. As I understand it. Nothing…BUT NOTHING is to interfere with the celebration of the Mass and this would be a pretty serious departure from the rubrics that all are bound to follow.

I really don’t like what I’m hearing, but if I were you, I’d call Catholic Answers at 619-387-7200 and talk to them about all this to find out if it’s really an abuse and then how they recommend handling it.

Oh, and yes, I do feel that strongly about this. Fortunately, the CCs in my parish have not done any of this that I know of, and I don’t think our pastor would allow it.

I experienced this while on a renewal day many miles from where I live, so I don’t really feel responsible for it. I **will **speak to those I went with, especially if I decide to go again. I am always interested in abuses, but only deal with them in my own parish. Even here, I am a bit weak, but I have made a stand on some things (the enneagram comes to mind).

 

[Nick9]

If the Holy Spirit moves the person to pray in tongues, there is a sort of unction that is felt interiorly. Without that unction, you may be only mumbling glossalalia without truly praying. So unless you feel a special call to pray in another tongue, just honor God with what He has given you, using all of your own mental capabilities and strength of personal prayer. He does hear you!

thanks Carole What you say is interesting because most of those who do speak in tongues say that they **did **receive an inner urge and it was as if the words just came out. This is one reason I feel that I don’t have the gift and also why I think they may well have it. Of course, Satan could be inspiring them, but I can tell you that many of these people have good fruits, so I think they are very likely to be genuine.

PS. Thanks for your kind words above.

well deserved and thanks again for yours

 

[Nick9]

This is wise, but…
what they are teaching and practicing is not correct. I know from my years in the AoG.

There should never be pressure to speak in tongues. That’s unscriptural and St. Paul specifically condemns that idea in the chapters I cited earlier to the Corinthian church.

There isn’t pressure as such. Except in the sense where any individual in a group feels a certain amount of pressure to conform.

Notice a couple of things.
A great deal of emotionalism in their services.

What has emotion to do with the spiritual realities of the Mass? They are a personal factor and in no way affect the Mass, and shouldn’t.

I wonder if ‘emotion’ is something which God is using these days to attract people? We could call them spritual consolations.

My dear Charismatic Catholic brothers and sisters, for the love of God, please do not let us stray into the errors of those who are already in error outside of the Church. We need to set the example, not follow theirs.

This is why we must be cautious. But we must also remember that God is not bound by the liturgy. One of my lecturers mentioned something similar regarding the Sacraments. They are the ordinary means of obtaining grace, but God also works outside them. I am thinking in this case that *maybe *God is using a more emotional/consolatory approach to attract as many people as He can. I am not making a judgment here, I am just being open minded in a matter about which I have no real insight.

BTW Nick, if you have been confirmed the you already have the fullness of the Holy Spirit. Let no one try to tell you otherwise. They are scripturally wrong.

I am aware of that, but thanks for the reminder. It is interesting that Paul Haffner, as I have posted previously a couple of times, says that later manifestations of the Holy Spirit (i.e. well after Baptism), including tongues, are best looked at as actualizations of the gifts received at Baptism and Confirmation rather than as new outpourings of the Holy Spirit. Many in the Charismatic Renewal actually take this attitude and so differ from the Protestants in that respect. Of course, the Protestants see no value in the sacraments where the gifts of grace are concerned.

 

[InLight247]

It does seem that the speaking in tongues will not harm anyone, but I wonder if this is always the case. I am from a non-Catholic family and my mother came to church with me for a period of time once. One of the things which put her off, however, was the displays of some of the members of our prayer group. There was ‘resting’ in the Spirit and tongues and she didn’t like it at all, and then she stopped coming with me. Just a thought.

Nick, I certainly can understand how people may be turned off by hearing some meaningless sound, especially when they are surrounded by these sounds from everyone around them. It could be confusing and overwhelming, especially if the person is not a Catholic and don’t understand the background from ACTS. But if a person who cannot eat steak happened to walk into a steak house and get upset stomach by the smell, it is not the steak house’s fault.

I have received the gift of tongue by being laid hands from a charismatic priest many many years ago. Our parish has a tongue praying session every Monday evening but I don’t go. I’d rather sitting in front of the tabernacle alone and enjoy the solitude with my Lord. I can have the gift, and I am grateful for the gift, but it does not have to be my praying style.

 

[Church_Militant]

If you say so Joy…

However, let’s be sure to note that this is simply YOUR opinion as a Charismatic, so what does that say?

Zealots? Baloney! Spoken to any serious Southern Baptists lately? They make what I have pointed out look like a warm fuzzy hug. I don’t really appreciate your ad hominem attack there.

I’ve read what the Pope has said about the CCR and have no problem with it, but I also know what I have seen and the fruits of Pentecostal Evangelicalism that have crept into some of those who are part of this, and I think that part is dead wrong.

Over and over again, I have seen and heard both Pentecostals, and Charismatics get all up in hackles when anyone points out that they might not be obeying the very New Testament passages that deal with the gifts they are so fond of. Your tirade here is no different and I’m fine with that, but if one reads the documents from the Church on all this, they are saying the same thing. With correction and discipline and obedience, the gifts are wonderful indeed. So long as anyone tells me they don’t have to follow the rubrics of the Mass, (which BTW, you haven’t shown there are any special ones for the CCR) or the simple mandates of the scriptures specifically speaking of these gifts, then I’m going to take issue with them.

You may think that it is all wonderfulness and light my friend, but I was there in an AoG for many years and that is not what I saw.

Confusion, disorder, disobedience to scripture, disobedience to church authority, showmanship, and other stuff that I won’t even get into. This is all in a n-C community where this is all the norm.

No one so far has condemned the CCR and regardless of your remarks I don’t think anyone will.

All I was originally intending to do was to give the OP the scriptural basis upon which to look into the matter and make an informed decision. (Which is funny in a way because Charismatics do the same thing with selected scriptures in discussing their practices. ) If the parish is on that track and he doesn’t like it, then he has two real options. Take it to the Bishop and see what happens, or just go find a Catholic parish without all that and where he will not feel pressured and more be more comfortable.

I think he’s got plenty to look into and enough to make his decision by now.

Here’s my tongues for ya!
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.

 

[Joysong]

Nick9:

I wonder if ‘emotion’ is something which God is using these days to attract people? We could call them spritual consolations.

God has always been an initiator of consolation in order to confirm a person in virtue. Since this is His habitual mode of acting, we need to be lovingly patient with God’s people and their imperfections and weaknesses, for one day, these consolations will dry up. It is a known pattern that God will lead His people into the desert of dryness, aridity, and seeming abandonment, after they have been strengthened with His visitations.

St. John of the Cross taught that God ‘puts honey on His breast’ to draw us away from the world and attract us to Himself. If you need the teaching, let me know and I’ll look for it, since I can’t remember which chapter it is in as I type this.

So if a new charismatic is exuberant and overly enthralled with the gifts, this will dry up one day in God’s timing. My local community has a lot of elderly people who were there for almost 30 years. They are so refined and gentle that you would never know they are charismatics. Their lives are so beautiful as they minister quietly and humbly to others.

 

[Nick9]

Nick, I certainly can understand how people may be turned off by hearing some meaningless sound, especially when they are surrounded by these sounds from everyone around them. It could be confusing and overwhelming, especially if the person is not a Catholic and don’t understand the background from ACTS. But if a person who cannot eat steak happened to walk into a steak house and get upset stomach by the smell, it is not the steak house’s fault.

I understand, it just seemed inconvenient to me at the time. I can see the virtue in regulating tongues when new people are present. I seems prudent for those who do not understand and I think St Paul would agree.

I have received the gift of tongue by being laid hands from a charismatic priest many many years ago. Our parish has a tongue praying session every Monday evening but I don’t go. I’d rather sitting in front of the tabernacle alone and enjoy the solitude with my Lord. I can have the gift, and I am grateful for the gift, but it does not have to be my praying style.

I am interested in how you knew you had the gift. Did it just come as an urge to pray in that way? I have heard that this is how it is manifested sometimes from those I have spoken to.

 

[Joysong]

For the record, Church Militant, I am NOT a charismatic, so your conclusion that I am voicing my opinion as one, is false.

As for my comment on zealots coming out whenever tongues are the topic, this is just a true observation in the many threads that had to be closed due to excessive rants in opposition to it. It was not directed to you specifically. Hopefully, you noted that several people have entered this thread already with very strong anti-tongue comments.

So long as anyone tells me they don’t have to follow the rubrics of the Mass, (which BTW, you haven’t shown there are any special ones for the CCR) [Of course I haven’t shown, because I don’t know. I simply said to check, rather than assume, as you did, that it is an abuse in need of report to the bishop]

or the simple mandates of the scriptures specifically speaking of these gifts, then I’m going to take issue with them. [As I pointed out, the scriptures you interpreted were simply a discipline in Paul’s culture, and not necessarily a valid mandate, to use your word, for our times. It is the Spirit who leads, and many times contrary to former disciplines. You interpret this as doctrinal matter, which I believe is your error.]

Your tirade here is no different and I’m fine with that, but if one reads the documents from the Church on all this, they are saying the same thing.

Tirade? Now who’s using ad hominem? I am only speaking the truth as I know it regarding the authority of the Church to regulate and approve this movement. You know well that She has!

How about providing documentation that She has spoken with regard to the correct use of tongues in assembly, which you seem to be alluding to without a source?

 

[InLight247]

I am interested in how you knew you had the gift. Did it just come as an urge to pray in that way? I have heard that this is how it is manifested sometimes from those I have spoken to.

It did not just come to me. It was imparted to me from laying hands of a priest during a charismatic prayer session. I remember when he laid his hands on my head, my tongue just became loose and the sound came out naturally without any of my own manipulation.

For the gift of tongue, it is totally in one’s own control when to use it and when to stop. When I pray in tongue, I feel the joy of the Lord and I know I am praising God, very simple. That is my perception of the gift given to me.

 

[Nick9]

God has always been an initiator of consolation in order to confirm a person in virtue. Since this is His habitual mode of acting, we need to be lovingly patient with God’s people and their imperfections and weaknesses, for one day, these consolations will dry up. It is a known pattern that God will lead His people into the desert of dryness, aridity, and seeming abandonment, after they have been strengthened with His visitations.

This gives me hope because I do not rely on feelings at all. I see those around me full of joy and I think something is wrong with me. Maybe there is.

St. John of the Cross taught that God ‘puts honey on His breast’ to draw us away from the world and attract us to Himself. If you need the teaching, let me know and I’ll look for it, since I can’t remember which chapter it is in as I type this.

I can’t remember that particular passage, but I have read St John of the Cross many times and he has helped me a lot. He would no doubt have downplayed tongues as something not to get attached to and feel proud of, without condemning it (possibly). I think he would have said that it is better not to have to rely on it.

So if a new charismatic is exuberant and overly enthralled with the gifts, this will dry up one day in God’s timing. My local community has a lot of elderly people who were there for almost 30 years. They are so refined and gentle that you would never know they are charismatics. Their lives are so beautiful as they minister quietly and humbly to others.

are you a charismatic Carole? I cannot say that I am. I am walking in darkness at the moment, but I have peace.

 

[Nick9]

It did not just come to me. It was imparted to me from laying hands of a priest during a charismatic prayer session. I remember when he laid his hands on my head, my tongue just became loose and the sound came out naturally without any of my own manipulation.

For the gift of tongue, it is totally in one’s own control when to use it and when to stop. When I pray in tongue, I feel the joy of the Lord and I know I am praising God, very simple. That is my perception of the gift given to me.

This sounds a very attractive gift. Did you ask for the gift or did you just ask for a general blessing?

 

[Joysong]

are you a charismatic Carole? I cannot say that I am. I am walking in darkness at the moment, but I have peace.

No, Nick, I am a secular Carmelite and the Rule of Life I follow is oriented to prayer, specifically contemplative prayer – which is totally different than the type of prayer that charismatics enjoy.

When we consider God’s garden, there are varieties of flowers that give their own particular beauty: some grown only in shade, others need full sun, and each blooms in their own season; bulbs in spring, mums in fall, etc.

There are similarly many paths to God and it is He who gives the call and the inspiration as to how we may respond. For each of us that will take on a different color. It greatly disturbs me to see any valid call rejected by those who have no ability to understand it. I suppose that’s the real reason I am defensive of charismatics, even though I have a different vocation. We just cannot put God in a box with our own expectations of His work. He is sooooooo beyond our finite minds.

I’m glad to hear you are at peace. Blessed are you who hunger and thirst for holiness, for you shall be satisfied. I have no doubt that God loves you and faithfully leads you.

 

[saylo]

Nick, I certainly can understand how people may be turned off by hearing some meaningless sound, especially when they are surrounded by these sounds from everyone around them. It could be confusing and overwhelming, especially if the person is not a Catholic and don’t understand the background from ACTS. But if a person who cannot eat steak happened to walk into a steak house and get upset stomach by the smell, it is not the steak house’s fault.

I have received the gift of tongue by being laid hands from a charismatic priest many many years ago. Our parish has a tongue praying session every Monday evening but I don’t go. I’d rather sitting in front of the tabernacle alone and enjoy the solitude with my Lord. I can have the gift, and I am grateful for the gift, but it does not have to be my praying style.

I am just curious. Take no offense.

When you pray in tongues, do you inderstand what you are saying? If so, can you give us an example?

 

[InLight247]

This sounds a very attractive gift. Did you ask for the gift or did you just ask for a general blessing?

God will never force any gift on anyone. I particularly asked for it at the time with a determination to receive it.

It was 16 years ago, way before I get into contemplative prayer.

 

[Nick9]

No, Nick, I am a secular Carmelite and the Rule of Life I follow is oriented to prayer, specifically contemplative prayer – which is totally different than the type of prayer that charismatics enjoy.

we are a bit off-topic (does it matter?), but that’s great, I like the Carmelites. I should imagine that you somehow live the cloistered Carmelite life in the world? I am also looking into a contemplative vocation.

When we consider God’s garden, there are varieties of flowers that give their own particular beauty: some grown only in shade, others need full sun, and each blooms in their own season; bulbs in spring, mums in fall, etc.

There are similarly many paths to God and it is He who gives the call and the inspiration as to how we may respond. For each of us that will take on a different color.

This is interesting. It is easy to see ourselves as being on the wrong path because we don’t fit the pattern set by those around us.

It greatly disturbs me to see any valid call rejected by those who have no ability to understand it. I suppose that’s the real reason I am defensive of charismatics, even though I have a different vocation. We just cannot put God in a box with our own expectations of His work. He is sooooooo beyond our finite minds.

I agree. I believe that God has chastised me in the past for being too harsh with charismatics. All ours seem to do is speak of God’s love, while I sometimes counter that message with ideas of God’s justice. One example is a charismatic woman I know, who is a very loving person, who says that if everyone knew that God loves them they would not want to sin. I don’t think that God wants me to refute such statements somehow.

I’m glad to hear you are at peace. Blessed are you who hunger and thirst for holiness, for you shall be satisfied. I have no doubt that God loves you and faithfully leads you.

thanks

 

[Nick9]

God will never force any gift on anyone. I particularly asked for it at the time with a determination to receive it.

It was 16 years ago, way before I get into contemplative prayer.

ah…I personally have not asked for the gift, but I have been prayed over by charismatics. I never felt the urge to ask for it, maybe because I didn’t feel the need. Now that I realize it’s meant to help us praise God maybe I should ask for it.

 

[Joysong]

we are a bit off-topic (does it matter?), but that’s great, I like the Carmelites. I should imagine that you somehow live the cloistered Carmelite life in the world? I am also looking into a contemplative vocation.

Maybe the forum will indulge us a moment or two.
Secular Carmelites are called to a life of prayer but then take the fruit of it out into their active lives in whatever form of ministry God inspires them with. I am presently considering and praying about a deeper rule of life beyond the duties I committed to in prayer.

This is interesting. It is easy to see ourselves as being on the wrong path because we don’t fit the pattern set by those around us.

Yes that’s true. If you have felt uncomfortable, maybe you are one of those plants that is out of your intended soil. Another consideration I failed to mention is the ph of dirt. Some plants require an alkaline soil, whereas others need acidity. I just discovered a coleus in my garden that did not grow like the others in a nearby area. I tested the soil and found it was very acid. I had grown an azalea there previously, but neglected to add lime to make the soil alkaline.

The uncomfortabililty and possible stunted growth are good symptoms, Nick, that maybe you are not in the right soil. It’s possible you are hearing a different call from God, and it is not charismatic. Try a novena to the Holy Spirit, and regular prayer to Him to guide you.

Carole

 

[saylo]

ah…I personally have not asked for the gift, but I have been prayed over by charismatics. I never felt the urge to ask for it, maybe because I didn’t feel the need. Now that I realize it’s meant to help us praise God maybe I should ask for it.

Don’t have to understand what it is you are saying in a prayer?