Tongues during Holy Mass - Liturgical Abuse?

[Lux_et_veritas]

I’ve done this informal poll of opinions on another Catholic forum and wanted to do the same here.

This thread is NOT about tongues outside the context of Holy Mass. Therefore, I will ask the moderators to help keep this thread on topic. If you wish to discuss tongues in general, there are probably other threads and if not, start one.

In your opinion, is it a form of liturgical abuse for people to engage in tongues during Holy Mass? Please explain your position, whether yes or no.

Also, if your parish allows this, please give us some further details and don’t limit yourself to the 3 questions if you have more comments:

1. Are tongues happening at a specific point in the Mass?
2. Are there practice sessions?
3. Is it pretty much the same people and do they engage in the practice at most Masses?

I’ll explain my position a little later in the thread.

 

[RobNY]

27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, let it be two or at most three, and each in turn, and one should interpret. 28 But if there is no interpreter, the person should keep silent in the church and speak to himself and to God.

1 Corinthians 14:27

To be most explicit: since I doubt any interpreters of tongues exist, my answer is, no.

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

If it is a Mass where the majority are of the Charismatic persuasion of the Church, and this Mass is for them, no problem. That’s why these type of Masses exist, so that Charismatics can experience the full impact of the Gifts of the Spirit.

If it is a non-charismatic Mass, then I think there would be a problem. For one thing, it’s uncharitable, and liable to scare the living daylights out of those who have never experienced it. For another thing, it can be distracting to those around the so gifted. Third, if there’s only one or two praying aloud in tongues, it takes away from the emphasis of the Liturgy of the Word or the Eucharist, and therefore is an abuse, and just plain rude. It’s this type of behavior that makes some resent Charismatics.

In answer to your questions, we (our parish) don’t generally have a lot of Charismatics; such activity is confined to a special Charismatic Mass held in the Diocese at various locations; I’m pretty sure it’s supposed to be a spontaneous “burst” of the Holy Spirit, so I can’t imagine how there could be practice sessions; if it happened at regular Mass, which it does not, I imagine it would be the same people. But it doesn’t happen at regular Mass.

 

[Forest-Pine]

I do not think it is liturgical abuse. It does not in any way invalidate or blaspheme the Mass.

I’ve never noticed it happening during Mass. I’m rather neutral about the topic in general. I do not doubt that the Gift of Tongues exists and if a person is blessed with it, I would think it extremely wonderful to be blessed with such a presence of the Spirit at my church. However, there does not seem to be a distinguishment in many discussions between Speaking in Tongues as in speaking in unknown languages in order to evangelize the gospel of Christ, and speaking in gibberish as in putting audible sounds to the groanings of the soul. The former is a rather powerful gift, the latter the weakest of gifts. If a person was evangelized during Mass because the Holy Spirit moved so powerfully through another as to allow him to speak in a foreign language to an unbeliever, I would be in awe at the majesty of our Lord. Obviously, this is not a common sight, or something we could “practice” for. I suspect that you are referencing the latter case, though. Therefore, the person is simply vocalizing the yearnings of his soul. I do not find the middle of Mass to be the proper outlet for this any more than I find it the proper outlet to just start up a vocal rosary from the pews.

Put in this context, “practicing sessions” and the proliferation of this practice among groups of people does not seem to be unlikely. It also does not seem to be abusive. It does appear to be something within their control and something with a proper context–and that context in my opinion is not the Mass.

 

[thistle]

1 Corinthians 14:27

To be most explicit: since I doubt any interpreters of tongues exist, my answer is, no.

I agree but I even doubt the gift of tongues in terms of gibberish exists. For me it is about real languages. Anyway I don’t think it should be allowed at Mass.

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

It was getting late last night and I was just getting too tired to type anymore. Here is my answer on the subject and I may need to break it down into two posts…

One way in which the liturgy can be abused is if content is added or removed. Rubrics even define where songs/hymns may take place within the Mass (Offeratory, post-communion, closing hymn, etc.). For example, the organist cannot lead us in to a song following the Credo, or Profession of Faith, and we can’t decide to break out in song in the middle of the Eucharistic Prayer.

Each part of the Mass has a name and it is listed in the GIRM as follows:

1. 
   *]The Individual Parts of the Mass
   
   *]The Introductory Rites
   The Entrance
   Greeting of the Altar and of the People Gathered Together
   The Act of Penitence
   The Kyrie Eleison
   The Gloria
   The Collect
   *]The Liturgy of the Word
   Silence
   The Biblical Readings
   The Responsorial Psalm
   The Homily
   The Profession of Faith
   The Prayer of the Faithful
   *]The Liturgy of the Eucharist
   The Preparation of the Gifts
   The Prayer over the Offerings
   The Eucharistic Prayer
   The Communion Rite
   The Lord’s Prayer
   The Rite of Peace
   The Fraction
   Communion
   *]The Concluding Rites
   
   Now, I have heard some Charismatics say that they break out into tongues immediately following the Gloria. Notice in the breakdown of the Mass that immediately following the Gloria is something called, “The Collect”, followed by “Silence” under the Liturgy of the Word. The organist may not lead the congregation into “Amazing Grace”, or any other song for that matter, immediately following the Gloria. To do so would add content to the Mass.

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

All of this having been said, here are my primary objections to this practice:

1) It Adds Content to the Mass which is a violation:
Breaking out into tongues in the middle of Holy Mass adds content to a specific part of the Mass. Content may not be added or removed as individual people, priests, or even bishops feel. The GIRM states where Bishops have flexibility in the Mass, but a Bishop cannot grant permission to sing a song or to hold a prayer/praise session following the Gloria.

**2) The Holy Spirit would not violate the GIRM. **
A question of authentic tongues may involve discernment of “which spirit” is involved in a specific individual’s case of tongues: A) Holy Spirit, B) Diabolic/Demonic, or C) Simply of Human Origin while sounding other-worldy. If such a gift is coming from the Holy Spirit, how likely is it that He would add content to Holy Mass, and in such a way as for attention to be drawn to individuals as opposed to the Lord - Word and Body? You can’t tell me that 100% of the people at a charismatic Mass are fully focused on God as opposed to focusing on people exercising their tongue when it occurs. If the Holy Spirit guides holy Mother Church and if He wanted tongues to take place during holy Mass why would He not drive the CDW to add this content to the Mass, then have people participate?

3) It is far from spontaneous
Another question of authentic tongues in an individual pertains to spontaneity. It is not spontaneous if it is “only done at charismatic Masses”. This is more like self-control when a charismatic is at other Masses. It is also self-control when charismatics have a predetermined part of the Mass in which they engage in tongues. One cannot will the Holy Spirit to give them the gift of tongues at a specific point of the Mass within a specific kind of Mass any more than they can will the Blessed Virgin Mary to appear on demand. In fact, if someon heads to holy Mass with intent to will an episode of tongues, I will go so far as to suggest they may get their wish, but the source may not be divine, and possibly diabolical.

I’ve got more, but I’ll stop here for now.

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

So, if you had it all figured out, why’d you asked our opinions? Was it a test?

I don’t think tongues in a Charismatic Mass “adds” to the Mass. I think it extends the Gloria. But then, I am not a Charismatic, and I don’t interpret tongues, so I really couldn’t say one way of the other. As long as it doesn’t scare people or drive them away, and is kept in the context of a Charismatic Mass, I don’t have a problem with it, primarily because it is a “private” Mass (knowing that no Mass is really private).

 

[netmilsmom]

OutinChgoburbs:

So, if you had it all figured out, why’d you asked our opinions? Was it a test?

She did say in the first post that she was going to explain her position later in the thread. She was looking for opinions of other Catholics.
As the mods say, “Please read and edit before posting.”

You probably didn’t mean it to sound that way, but it looks not so nice. Even with the wink.

 

[Joan_M]

Having people speaking in tongues during Mass is, indeed, a Liturgical Abuse. Nowhere in the GIRM (and they are Instructions, not Guidelines as some would have us think!) does it tell us to speak in tongues.

Further, there is no such thing as a Charismatic Mass. There is the Mass. Full stop. Any tinkering with what the Church has laid down is Liturgical Abuse - some more serious than others.

 

[MrS]

Joan M:

Having people speaking in tongues during Mass is, indeed, a Liturgical Abuse. Nowhere in the GIRM (and they are Instructions, not Guidelines as some would have us think!) does it tell us to speak in tongues.

Further, there is no such thing as a Charismatic Mass. There is the Mass. Full stop. Any tinkering with what the Church has laid down is Liturgical Abuse - some more serious than others.

:yup:

Some children often choose the middle of the Mass to have to go to the bathroom… so I wonder why parents don’t address this function before leaving home…

…so perhaps some adults should ask the Holy Spirit to give them better control over their bodily functions and avoid disruption too.

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

OutinChgoburbs:

So, if you had it all figured out, why’d you asked our opinions? Was it a test?

I called it an informal poll, one in which I clearly stated I would participate.

In stating a particular position, I’m looking to see if someone can find any particular weakness in my argument.

I don’t think tongues in a Charismatic Mass “adds” to the Mass. I think it extends the Gloria. But then, I am not a Charismatic, and I don’t interpret tongues, so I really couldn’t say one way of the other. As long as it doesn’t scare people or drive them away, and is kept in the context of a Charismatic Mass, I don’t have a problem with it, primarily because it is a “private” Mass (knowing that no Mass is really private).

And…you challenge me by saying that

A) Tongues are an extension of the Gloria

B) Masses may be altered for a specific, private group.

Here are my responses:

A) The Gloria cannot be extended or shortened in any way.

From this sermon on the Gloria given by Fr. Eduard Perrone of Assumption Grotto parish, we learn:

The original text of the Gloria dates from the 4th century and was in Greek, originally used for the morning prayer of the divine office. It was later inserted into the Mass in Latin.

This having been said, an extension of the Gloria is as improper as adding content to the Mass. We cannot add or remove content from the Gloria or it becomes something other than the Gloria.

**B) Masses aimed at particular crowds may not alter the content of the Mass. **

This title speaks for itself. This is why Life-Teen Masses came under fire. They were altering the Mass in order to make it more interesting. Holy Mass is for the worship of God Almighty. It is the one part of the week, or day, that we are to abandon our desires to be entertained or do so as we please, with full aim at giving ourselves entirely to Him. This cannot happen as long as we are so attached to others around us. It prevents us from ascending to the highest realm of worship: Contemplative Worship. Contemplative worship requires interior silence. Too much “noise” in the Mass hinders interior silence where we strive to connect with God in Mystical Union.

 

[Caelicola]

I would say that practice sessions would be a giant flashing red flag. However, in general, I have to wonder about this topic. I want to ask, “How would you even know if someone were praying in tongues during Mass?” My guess would be that it is much more common than you realize, but it almost sounds as if these people are shouting them out so everyone can hear them during Mass - I have never experienced (or heard of!) that.

Speaking in tongues is something that I would consider a personal gift, and any pause or group-queue during Mass seems out of place. Although, I can understand why people who may feel a bit of ridicule, intimidation, etc. would want to all go to Mass together, and I don’t think that’s a bad thing.

Naturally, any manufactured changes in the Mass are bad - but I think it unfair to extend this prohibition to personal prayer, whatever form that may take. This is not changing the Mass in any way, only an individual’s participation therein. In my experience you wouldn’t know if someone were speaking in tongues at Mass unless you were sitting right next to them, and then you’d only hear the softest of whispers…

In fact, if someon heads to holy Mass with intent to will an episode of tongues, I will go so far as to suggest they may get their wish, but the source may not be divine, and possibly diabolical.

That is going pretty far, as you said. However, there is definately something here: a conflict between the unbeliebigkeit (unspontaneity, non-user-definition) of the Mass and the supposedly spontaneous, un-forced, supernaturally-timed properties of this kind of charismatic prayer. In this very strict sense, you have a point. But I think this would only hold true in the real world, if for example, there was a pause and sort of a “Let’s all summon the spirit of tongues!” and I would suspect that in reality it’s more of an unspoken “Let’s take a brief minute to allow the Holy Spirit to work through us.”

Not to mention that your analogy completely leaves out the possibility that a charismatic gift could be given and then used by a person as they can best figure out. I doubt if someone with another charismatic gift (say, healing) would be accused of coming by that gift demonically at the first sign of abuse. In other words, perhaps the gift is given once, and not as you suppose, *every time *an instance occurs. I could guess, but I’m quite sure I don’t know.

 

[Prometheum_x]

Lux_et_veritas:

All of this having been said, here are my primary objections to this practice:

1) It Adds Content to the Mass which is a violation:
Breaking out into tongues in the middle of Holy Mass adds content to a specific part of the Mass. Content may not be added or removed as individual people, priests, or even bishops feel. The GIRM states where Bishops have flexibility in the Mass, but a Bishop cannot grant permission to sing a song or to hold a prayer/praise session following the Gloria.

While I cannot speak for other churches which bring speaking in tongues into the mass, I can speak about my own church. Established as a charismatic personal parish of the Bishop, we have specific permission from the Bishop to have a time of charismatic worship during the Gloria. By “during” I mean this: upon completion of one time through the text, the time of charismatic worship is held, and then the last section of the Gloria is repeated. I cannot tell you whether or not the Bishop has authority to do – I see that you claim he does not.

While it is certainly possible that we are mistaken in our judgment, my parish goes to great lengths to be in conformity with the liturgical laws. While there exists the possibility that this pracitice is illicit (because the Bishop does not have the necessary authority), it is in spite of (not because) our attempts to do only that which is lawful.

**2) The Holy Spirit would not violate the GIRM. **
A question of authentic tongues may involve discernment of “which spirit” is involved in a specific individual’s case of tongues: A) Holy Spirit, B) Diabolic/Demonic, or C) Simply of Human Origin while sounding other-worldy. If such a gift is coming from the Holy Spirit, how likely is it that He would add content to Holy Mass, and in such a way as for attention to be drawn to individuals as opposed to the Lord - Word and Body?

You can’t tell me that 100% of the people at a charismatic Mass are fully focused on God as opposed to focusing on people exercising their tongue when it occurs.

If the Holy Spirit guides holy Mother Church and if He wanted tongues to take place during holy Mass why would He not drive the CDW to add this content to the Mass, then have people participate?

I broke the paragraph into 3 sections: First section: God has given us many gifts. We are in no way prevented from misusing them. As well, this section is entirely dependent on a positive affirmation of argument 1, such that if argument 1 is true, this section is relatively moot.

2nd section: is 100% of people the number that is always paying attention at the normal mass?

3rd section: Why doesn’t the Holy Spirit do lots of things? Maybe in its prudential judgment the CDW thought it better to not impose it on everyone? I have no idea – nor does anyone else, until something official is released.

**

1. It is far from spontaneous

Another question of authentic tongues in an individual pertains to spontaneity. It is not spontaneous if it is “only done at charismatic Masses”. This is more like self-control when a charismatic is at other Masses. It is also self-control when charismatics have a predetermined part of the Mass in which they engage in tongues. One cannot will the Holy Spirit to give them the gift of tongues at a specific point of the Mass within a specific kind of Mass any more than they can will the Blessed Virgin Mary to appear on demand. In fact, if someon heads to holy Mass with intent to will an episode of tongues, I will go so far as to suggest they may get their wish, but the source may not be divine, and possibly diabolical.

I’ve got more, but I’ll stop here for now.**

Where is it indicated that the gift of authentic tongues must always and at all times be spontaneous? The 14th chapter of seems to indicate that the speaker has some self control, as they are instructed to speak one at a time (vs. 27). In fact, in verse 32, speaking of prophecy it says, “The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets.”

You are also making the assumption that a gift once given does not remain in any capacity, such that the recipient could use it at a later time. Where is this indicated?

 

[rwoehmke]

Paul tells us that to PROPHESY in tongues there must also be a person or persons with the gift of Interpretation present. It is a totally different situation when one PRAYS in tongues which edifies the person praying and is not meant to be understood by anyone but God. Either gift once given is under the control of the speaker and in my opinion has no place at an ordinary(for lack of a better term) Mass. I pray in tongues at Mass fairly often, but keep it sub-vocal. The use of tongues may be spontaneous, but that does not mean one needs to burst out with it loudly at any time. Is it sometimes an illusion of the person praying? Probably, but not necesarily so. If it brings one closer to God, who really cares as long as others are not being disturbed?

 

[Joysong]

Diane:

I’ve done this informal poll of opinions on another Catholic forum and wanted to do the same here.

Puzzled as to why you are repeating it here? Did it not go well on the other forum? Are you in need of additional support to substantiate your belief that it is, at best, an abuse? Did you initiate your poll for the purpose of “faith seeking understanding?”

~~ Carole

 

[Joysong]

Dear Diane,

Curiosity satisfied. I just finished reading your thread on the other forum, and find that your opinion is already formed.

I’m still of the belief that tongues during Holy Mass is a form of liturgical abuse.

That being clarified, what are you hoping to accomplish over here? Since you are in a traditional conservative parish and not exposed to this, I don’t see where you would personally have a cause to be concerned, other than for the good of the universal Church, which may you feel needs some defense.

We have recourse to ecclesial authorities in that case, and it would be the best course of action for you to contact them. Perhaps you have already begun this process.

We have been down the road of “tongues” in so many threads, as you well know, and it is always a matter of constant division. I know of your deep spiritual piety, so you do not seem to be a person who would foster more of the same by creating yet another thread. I pray that we fan the flame of holy charity instead, by promoting solid teachings and example that will more effectively draw all men to Christ. There is usually little good that comes from debates on this topic, and we saw the priest wisely close a thread on this subject in the “other forum.”

Just my two cents, but with very kind regards,
Carole

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

Joysong:

Puzzled as to why you are repeating it here? Did it not go well on the other forum? Are you in need of additional support to substantiate your belief that it is, at best, an abuse? Did you initiate your poll for the purpose of “faith seeking understanding?”

~~ Carole

As a matter of fact it went fine in the other forum.

I was looking to see what defenses others would put up for the practice of tongues during Mass. That means, I am looking for content likely to come with volumes of responses. Thus far, I have not really seen a response that would drive me to question my own position on it. This means, I am open to the possibility that it is not liturgical abuse if someone can convince me otherwise through something other than personal feelings.

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

Joysong:

Dear Diane,

Curiosity satisfied. I just finished reading your thread on the other forum, and find that your opinion is already formed.

That being clarified, what are you hoping to accomplish over here?

Since you are in a traditional conservative parish and not exposed to this, I don’t see where you would personally have a cause to be concerned, other than for the good of the universal Church, which may you feel needs some defense.

That would be traditional orthodox parish.

As a member of the Mystical Body, liturgical abuse is everyone’s business, if it is liturgical abuse. I can only think outloud and ponder the question and see what others come up with. As stated above, nothing has persuaded me to believe it is not. Usually, the best way to learn is to present an argument that is more objective and see if anyone can poke holes in it with something other than feelings and emotion (subjective).

We have recourse to ecclesial authorities in that case, and it would be the best course of action for you to contact them. Perhaps you have already begun this process.

I am well aware of this avenue and am in the process of putting together a question which will go to the CDW. I will state my willingness to concede if the CDW can help me to understand how it is not liturgical abuse. I believe the CDW will respond according to the will of the Holy Spirit and will accept their answer - heart, soul and mind.

We have been down the road of “tongues” in so many threads, as you well know, and it is always a matter of constant division. I know of your deep spiritual piety, so you do not seem to be a person who would foster more of the same by creating yet another thread. I pray that we fan the flame of holy charity instead, by promoting solid teachings and example that will more effectively draw all men to Christ. There is usually little good that comes from debates on this topic, and we saw the priest wisely close a thread on this subject in the “other forum.”

You say there is usually little good from these kinds of discussions. Maybe the discussion is useless to you, but it has been fruitful for me. I have not found sufficient reason to doubt a conclusion reached through prayer and reflection. I am still open to the possiblity that my position is incorrect, but need the necessary argument to sway me. Since I do not think it will come through either forum, I will let the CDW help me in a final discernment. Only God Himself would know why an ordinary lay person would be driven to ponder such a question so deeply.

The thread he closed was not my thread, but some other thread. There happens to be a very long running thread on “tongues” that has remained untouched, along with mine. The thread I began with this same topic is still running as well. Also, the two sites have slightly different cultures, much like two different work groups would have.

So, who decides what is good to discuss here and what is not?

I may be misreading your post, but it seems you believe that being charitable requires conflict avoidance. Sometimes the most charitable thing we can do is to confront something that may be creating unintended consequences.

 

[Joysong]

Hello Diane,

You say there is usually little good from these kinds of discussions. Maybe the discussion is useless to you, but it has been fruitful for me. I have not found sufficient reason to doubt a conclusion reached through prayer and reflection. I am still open to the possiblity that my position is incorrect, but need the necessary argument to sway me. Since I do not think it will come through either forum, I will let the CDW help me in a final discernment. Only God Himself would know why an ordinary lay person would be driven to ponder such a question so deeply.

If I hear you correctly, you are looking for somebody to back up your spiritual inclination that you obtained through prayer and reflection, and in case you are mistaken, are open to correcting your opinion.

God often drives us to question deeply, IMO, to convict us about a matter. But you know this and are searching it out. No problem. I did see that it was not your thread that the priest closed. Yet after I read some excellent points that he made, I doubt that you you are going to rest with the casual opinion of someone here who does not possess the teaching authority of the Church. That was the basis of why I mentioned the futility of “yet another tongues thread” — and not that you had no right to post, heaven forbid!