Tongues during Holy Mass - Liturgical Abuse?

[netmilsmom]

Lux_et_veritas:

I may be misreading your post, but it seems you believe that being charitable requires conflict avoidance. Sometimes the most charitable thing we can do is to confront something that may be creating unintended consequences.

Understanding that forums are discussion forums, I could not agree with you more!

As my Goddaughter states, “Please tell me when I am doing something that you do not like. How will I know that it offends you if I think everything is okay?”

In my area, (and yours Diane) the modernists rule. We fight or hide to have our Historically Catholic Liturgy. When I was at my last “Catholic Community”, the Grotto was openly slammed.
We have had to defend our position while the Modernist have not. Open discussion leads us to mutual understanding.

 

[Joysong]

.Dear Diane,

I may be misreading your post, but it seems you believe that being charitable requires conflict avoidance. Sometimes the most charitable thing we can do is to confront something that may be creating unintended consequences.

Yes you are misreading me, I believe. If you knew me a little better and/or observed some of my other of my posts throughout my year here, I have on occasion confronted others in sincere charity. In not being able to read my heart, but examining the written word on the surface, the unfortunate consequence of taking this action has resulted in a judgment error of my intention. But we do what we feel God is asking of us, even though we may sometimes fail in applying our human mannerisms to an authentic inspiration.

And it is true that I abhor conflict – not for its own sake, but because the wounds of division take a long time to heal, and people are not always charitable when they defend their “position.”

I may be misreading your thread, as well, Diane, but I sense that your opinion has already been well-grounded on the issue of tongues at Mass, as I observed in the other forum and as I understood from your words here. It seemed that engaging others in this heated topic once again would not serve to change your mind unless something was posted that had the credentials of the Church’s documents. And for that reason, I still believe you may need to search for your answers beyond what we can prove to you here.

Kind regards,
Carole

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

I had been unaware of this fact (about Grotto) until some months after I found the parish, discovered God in a new light, converted to Him in ways that brought about deep change, and realized the treasure, or gem, of the orthodox end of the faith. I lost interest in all of my false Gods, which I did not see as such until I began to attend this most reserved and reverential Mass. Among them were: TV (at least 10 hours of primetime weekly), my job (worked 55 hours easily for 40 hours pay, including Sundays), my hobby (spent at least 6 hours weekly tinkering with my fish tanks and even more in aquarium forums). I was a football junkie, watching football from morning until night on Saturdays, Sundays, Monday nights, and any other time. In all this time, I barely gave one hour to God, being late for Mass and leaving early.

After my full conversion around Pentecost, I was so heavily drawn to Grotto daily that time went by before I realized I had not watched any TV (aside from EWTN), reduced my time at work to 40 hours, and my hobby down to about 1 hour weekly, which is more than adequate for maintaining my fish tanks. I peacefully let go of my beloved aquarium forums in favor of Catholic forums.

I discovered the benefits and beauty of adoration which, at 43, I had never experienced here in the US. I found myself joining in on processions (Corpus Christi) and was moved as they worked their way through the Grotto cemetary. I rearranged my work start time to enable Mass during the week, and Lauds. I joined the secular Carmelite community through Grotto and am in formation right now. I now head to Grotto at 8:30 on Sundays for prayer, 9:00 choir practice, 9:30am Latin Novus Ordo Mass (which does not end until 11:00), head back to the choir room for practice until noon, then I go and have a hamburger or hot dog and socialize until the noon Mass ends and the procession takes place to the Grotto for benediction (or in the Church now that cold weather has set in). I often do not leave until 2 or 3 in the afternoon like so many other Grotto-goers who are there early and stay late.

The Mass became so important to me because it was the Mass that served as the spark plug. I had never experienced a Mass that was not “busy”. I had never noticed how my attention can be drawn to a celebrant that is a little too bubbly and away from God, who should always be at the center of the Mass. I had never noticed how the folk music, which I had once participated in as a singer/guitar/mandolin player, put music at the center of my Mass rather than God. This was true even when I no longer played as I focused on what songs would be played and how they would be played. When the new group brought in trombones, saxophones, drums, electric base, electric keyboards and even accordion, I didn’t notice how it pulled my attention away from God to the music. That is, until I experienced the Mass at Grotto - Gregorian Chant, and pure sacred music. I experienced silence during Holy Communion for the first time at Grotto. And, discovered full splendor listening - in silent, active participation as the choir sang motets and Masses written centuries ago. I joined the choir in the fall, and still find it draws my attention to God more than any other Mass outside of Grotto.

All of this caused me to question everything taking place in the Mass: Does it enable me to focus entirely on God? Or, does it cause me to take my focus from Him to the event (song, bubbly priest, or persons next to me).

THIS is what sparked my interest about tongues at Holy Mass. I did not realize it took place until I engaged in forums. While an episode of tongues may heighten someone’s personal experience if they are engaged in it, there is a distinct possibility that it lures attention away from God for those around the person during Holy Mass.

Right now, it is a matter of inquiry and one that I am attempting to explore with an open mind, but clearly stating where I am currently leaning. If anyone, clerical or not, presented a sound argument for me to consider, then maybe I would not see tongues as a form of unintended liturgical abuse. In no way do I feel people intentionally want to hurt the Mystical Body through their actions. Rather, it is one I believe requires catechesis, if the conclusion I’ve reached are correct. Only God Himself knows the answer now and hopefully, it can be addressed one way or another through a letter to the CDW.

I make it a point to proudly let people know that I am at Grotto. Some make strange faces. But, I have found so many more who long for what she has to offer. A 35 year old relative who went with me one Sunday returned to God and the faith there after being agnostic for about 10 years. A 15 year old relative in a lapsed Catholic family, is making her confirmation there next spring. Both said, “It felt right to receive Jesus on my knees and on my tongue.” Both are now gravitating to orthodox values.

 

[Walking_Home]

Mz. Diane,

You expressed my feelings exactly.

Walking_Home

 

[palmas85]

Lux_et_veritas:

I’ve done this informal poll of opinions on another Catholic forum and wanted to do the same here.

This thread is NOT about tongues outside the context of Holy Mass. Therefore, I will ask the moderators to help keep this thread on topic. If you wish to discuss tongues in general, there are probably other threads and if not, start one.

In your opinion, is it a form of liturgical abuse for people to engage in tongues during Holy Mass? Please explain your position, whether yes or no.

Also, if your parish allows this, please give us some further details and don’t limit yourself to the 3 questions if you have more comments:

1. Are tongues happening at a specific point in the Mass?
2. Are there practice sessions?
3. Is it pretty much the same people and do they engage in the practice at most Masses?

I’ll explain my position a little later in the thread.

When I’ve seen them they always appeared to be staged, kind of like an amen or a hallelujah brother. The funny thing is as I understand it, they are supposed to be a spontaneous thing, with the speaker actually not knowing when it will happen or even what he does or says during the episode. That is why an interpretor was required.

It was ALWAYS the same people, week after week. No change. Usually the words all sounded the same as well.

I guess when our Charismatics got ahold of this idea they decided that that the rarity and uncertainess of the whole thing needed to be upgraded so that they could all take part. You know in full accord with more active participation by the laity and all that.

In Pentecostal Churches, the speaking doesn’t happen all the time and often occurs to a speaker only once, on the day of Baptism into the Holy Spirit. Very few speak on more than one occasion.

As far as it being Liturgical abuse, definitely, without a doubt.

 

[Prometheum_x]

palmas85:

When I’ve seen them they always appeared to be staged, kind of like an amen or a hallelujah brother. The funny thing is as I understand it, they are supposed to be a spontaneous thing, with the speaker actually not knowing when it will happen or even what he does or says during the episode. That is why an interpretor was required.

Neither Scripture, nor Tradition, nor the magisterium say that speaking in tongues is supposed to be a spontaneous things.

Often the first occasion of speaking tongues comes as a surprise to one with that gift, but even then, it is still under one’s control. Otherwise, in vain would St. Paul have instructed:

“If anyone speaks in a tongue, two–or at the most three–should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God.” (1 Cor 14:27-28)

One cannot very well wait their turn if they have no ability to control whether they speak in tongues or not.

As for liturgical abuse, since I am no liturgical expert and have seen no clear authoritative statements on the type of usage of speaking in tongues that my parish has specific permission for, I will submit to the leadership of both my pastor and my bishop in this matter.

 

[MJ_1964]

Not at all, if it is the real gift of tounges, and not this gibberish that people are calling tounges. In my Parish we use the Greek Kyrie eleison ( Lord have mercy) in place of the English at times, this is speaking in tounges. A Tridentine mass in Latin is speaking in tounge. These are fine within the context of the mass, but to break out and change the structure of the Mass because of a feeling, is wrong, and for all those who think there are speaking in tounge when your just gibbering stop it! Tounges is when you speak in known lanuages. John Paul II spoke in tounges he spoke English, Latin, spanish, and about 5 different other lanuages. If we are going to speak in tounges then lets follow the example of our beloved late Pope John Paul II.
Grace and Peace be yours
MJ

 

[porthos11]

I’m Charismatic.

And I’m very much against tongues and loud worship within the Mass.

Why? Because the Mass isn’t mine, or the priest’s or even that of the assembled congregation, even if they’re 101% Charismatic. The Mass is the prayer of the Whole Church ™. As such, it is governed by specific laws. And yes, the GIRM has the force of Law.

May main reason for objecting is: Why? Why would we need to break out into charismatic tongues and praise during Mass? Isn’t the Mass the highest form of worship? Isn’t the Holy Spirit already busy at Mass doing the greatest miracle that we will witness until the end of the world? Why do we need to “enhance” the Mass? By including non-prescribed styles and content to the Mass, we are implying that the Mass in its typical form is lacking.

Again it boils down to: LEX ORANDI, LEX CREDENDI, which many have already forgotten.

 

[netmilsmom]

porthos11:

I’m Charismatic.

And I’m very much against tongues and loud worship within the Mass.

Why? Because the Mass isn’t mine, or the priest’s or even that of the assembled congregation, even if they’re 101% Charismatic. The Mass is the prayer of the Whole Church ™. As such, it is governed by specific laws. And yes, the GIRM has the force of Law.

May main reason for objecting is: Why? Why would we need to break out into charismatic tongues and praise during Mass? Isn’t the Mass the highest form of worship? Isn’t the Holy Spirit already busy at Mass doing the greatest miracle that we will witness until the end of the world? Why do we need to “enhance” the Mass? By including non-prescribed styles and content to the Mass, we are implying that the Mass in its typical form is lacking.

Again it boils down to: LEX ORANDI, LEX CREDENDI, which many have already forgotten.

I have heard many people speaking in tongues. I didn’t believe that any of them actually were because they seemed to be in a “Look at me” state.
You certainly seem to be the type of person I would believe is truly speaking in tongues.

 

[palmas85]

Prometheum_x:

Neither Scripture, nor Tradition, nor the magisterium say that speaking in tongues is supposed to be a spontaneous things.

Often the first occasion of speaking tongues comes as a surprise to one with that gift, but even then, it is still under one’s control. Otherwise, in vain would St. Paul have instructed:

“If anyone speaks in a tongue, two–or at the most three–should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God.” (1 Cor 14:27-28)

One cannot very well wait their turn if they have no ability to control whether they speak in tongues or not.

As for liturgical abuse, since I am no liturgical expert and have seen no clear authoritative statements on the type of usage of speaking in tongues that my parish has specific permission for, I will submit to the leadership of both my pastor and my bishop in this matter.

Of course, since the Apostles were speaking in tongues somewhat differently then do the “tongue talkers” of today, I would have to imagine that different rules would apply. Tell you what, why don’t the “tongue talkers” go to a Pentecostal Revival, learn how to do this thing properly, learn all the tricks so to speak, then come back? It would probably be a lot more convincing, since the Pentecostals have a whole lot more experience at this thing than Catholics do.

It is sad that we, the Motrher Church were so neglected by the Holy Spirit for so, so long, while the Protestants had this remarkable “gift” basically all to themselves. Oh well, the Lord does move in mysterious ways.

 

[kleary]

Speaking in tongues during the Mass?

Well let me tell you of a priest who BURST into tongues during the Eucharistic prayer----after the consecration of the bread and again after the consecration of the wine… then the people in the congregation giving him the Adolf Hitler Salute each time!

No wonder I drive 35 miles to an indult Mass these days.

Ken

 

[gusano]

palmas85:

Of course, since
** the Apostles were speaking in tongues somewhat differently then do the “tongue talkers” of today,**
I would have to imagine that different rules would apply. Tell you what, why don’t the “tongue talkers” go to a Pentecostal Revival, learn how to do this thing properly, learn all the tricks so to speak, then come back? It would probably be a lot more convincing, since the Pentecostals have a whole lot more experience at this thing than Catholics do.

It is sad that we, the Motrher Church were so neglected by the Holy Spirit for so, so long, while the Protestants had this remarkable “gift” basically all to themselves. Oh well, the Lord does move in mysterious ways.

*Did you see or hear The Apostles speak in tongues…
so you could compare them with the “tongue talkers” of today ?

or is all this from your imagination ?

and thanks, but no thanks, for the suggestion to go to the pentecostal revival…
It is infinately richer in The Ordinary Roman Catholic Mass !

gusano*

 

[palmas85]

*Did you see or hear The Apostles speak in tongues…
so you could compare them with the “tongue talkers” of today ?

or is all this from your imagination ?

and thanks, but no thanks, for the suggestion to go to the pentecostal revival…
It is infinately richer in The Ordinary Roman Catholic Mass !

gusano*

HI Worm!!! I thought you were mad at me, but when I spoke up again about the charismatics, I just knew you would respond!!!

If the Ordinary Roman Catholic Mass is so rich to you, why tamper with it and add these things Worm??? The Roman Catholic Mass never had them and really still doesn’t now does it???

And guess what Worm , you actually managed a whole response on your own without scriptural quotations!!! I’m proud of you. I knew you could do it.

And sabes que mi hermanito gusano, yo no creo que Vds. que hablan de lenguas ahora estan hablando en la manera de los apostolos. En ninuguna manera Gusano, en ninguna manera. Lo siento mucho mi hermanito pero Vds. y los apostols son completamente diferentes. No hay comparision.

Sigue tu camino Gusano y yo se que un dia tu vas a ver la verdad.

 

[porthos11]

*
and thanks, but no thanks, for the suggestion to go to the pentecostal revival…
It is infinately richer in The Ordinary Roman Catholic Mass !

gusano*

Bull. The “Ordinary” Roman Catholic Mass is Calvary Made Present. It is Heaven Made Present. Not figuratively, but literally. Nothing is more sacred on earth.

A valid Catholic Mass riddled with liturgical abuses is infinitely more precious than any other celebration. Nothing is richer than the Mass.

 

[gusano]

palmas85:

HI Worm!!!
(1)… I thought you were mad at me, but when I spoke up again about the charismatics, I just knew you would respond!!!

If the Ordinary Roman Catholic Mass is so rich to you,
** (2)… why tamper with it and add these things Worm??? **
The Roman Catholic Mass never had them and really still doesn’t now does it???

And guess what Worm , you actually managed a whole response on your own without scriptural quotations!!! I’m proud of you. I knew you could do it.

And sabes que mi hermanito gusano,
** (3) yo no creo que Vds. que hablan de lenguas ahora estan hablando en la manera de los apostolos.**
En ninuguna manera Gusano, en ninguna manera. Lo siento mucho mi hermanito pero Vds. y los apostols son completamente diferentes. No hay comparision.

Sigue tu camino Gusano y yo se que ** (4)… un dia tu vas a ver la verdad.**

(1)… Hi Palmas, No I am not mad at you…
your thoughts are from your own conscience.
could be your own guilt.

(2)… I simply prefer to respond to Christ’s OFFER with my whole heart, soul, mind, and strength.
what do you do when the Priest invites you to Lift up your heart ?

(3)… That is OK if you do not believe Palmas, it is not your Path.
It is My Path, and I do believe…as the Holy Spirit prompts me.

(4)… Today is that day.
"Today if you should hear His voice, harden not your hearts…
Therefore a sabbath rest still remains for the people of God."
Heb, 4: 9

and I am not sorry if scripture offends you Palmas
you have enough sorrow as it is.

The Peace of Christ to you

gusano

 

[grotto]

Lux - I found this thread very interesting and informative.

I haven’t explored the subject much myself because I instinctively question or doubt behaviors that appear “staged”. I do not deny that Gifts of the Holy Spirit are not as “real” as anything Our Great Lord commands. “All things are possible through God”!

Sorry you were so impolitely challenged over your bringing up the subject and I appreciate your taking the time and energy to respond in such a clearly learned manner. I found your reasoning very acceptable.

I have to remind you that I WISH I could be so lucky to be active in our Faith at Assumption Grotto - I can only do so on rare occasions due to the distance, but once it was my home parish until married and we went far, far away for the next 20+ years serving in the Air Force. Assumption Grotto has been very blessed through Our Blessed Mother’s protection and I take great joy in knowing that.

What great gifts you are given there, imagine spending such a wonderful day as Sundays at Grotto!
smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/17/17_1_33.gif

 

[gusano]

porthos11:

Bull. The “Ordinary” Roman Catholic Mass is Calvary Made Present. It is Heaven Made Present. Not figuratively, but literally. Nothing is more sacred on earth.

A valid Catholic Mass riddled with liturgical abuses is infinitely more precious than any other celebration. Nothing is richer than the Mass.

I am not sure how to respond to your post porthos11,
I guess “Bull” perplexes me…
are you iritated at something I said ?

I do agree with you that nothing is richer than the Mass .
Nothing. except heaven.

and I will say that
Christ’s crucifixion was riddled with brutality, mockery, condemnation, unbelief…except for a few.

Pentecost, was riddled with disbelief, confusion, astonishment, amazement, dombfoundedness, sneering, mockery…
except for the 120 disciples (including Mary)

Praying in Tongues in Mass is not a liturgical abuse, it is pleasing to God.(besides, no one else hears it but God and I )
Daydreaming, mind wandering, fault finding, criticism, gossip, etc. during Mass are liturgical abuses.

God Bless,

gusano

 

[porthos11]

gusano:

I am not sure how to respond to your post porthos11,
I guess “Bull” perplexes me…
are you iritated at something I said ?

I do agree with you that nothing is richer than the Mass .
Nothing. except heaven.

Gusano, I owe you an apology.

I misread your post, and I thought you said that the Pentecostal revival is infinitely richer than the Ordinary Roman Catholic Mass. You actually wrote that it’s richer IN the Ordinary Roman Catholic Mass.

So it’s not bull after all. Please forgive.

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

grotto:

Lux - I found this thread very interesting and informative.

I haven’t explored the subject much myself because I instinctively question or doubt behaviors that appear “staged”. I do not deny that Gifts of the Holy Spirit are not as “real” as anything Our Great Lord commands. “All things are possible through God”!

Sorry you were so impolitely challenged over your bringing up the subject and I appreciate your taking the time and energy to respond in such a clearly learned manner. I found your reasoning very acceptable.

I have to remind you that I WISH I could be so lucky to be active in our Faith at Assumption Grotto - I can only do so on rare occasions due to the distance, but once it was my home parish until married and we went far, far away for the next 20+ years serving in the Air Force. Assumption Grotto has been very blessed through Our Blessed Mother’s protection and I take great joy in knowing that.

What great gifts you are given there, imagine spending such a wonderful day as Sundays at Grotto!
smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/17/17_1_33.gif

So nice to hear from you again. Soon I’ll be posting pictures from the 40 Hours Devotion we just had. Look for a post in the Liturgical section in the coming days. I’m very busy right now and must get back to work. :whacky:

 

[palmas85]

quote=gusano… Hi Palmas, No I am not mad at you…
your thoughts are from your own conscience.
could be your own guilt.

(2)… I simply prefer to respond to Christ’s OFFER with my whole heart, soul, mind, and strength.
what do you do when the Priest invites you to Lift up your heart ?

(3)… That is OK if you do not believe Palmas, it is not your Path.
It is My Path, and I do believe…as the Holy Spirit prompts me.

(4)… Today is that day.
"Today if you should hear His voice, harden not your hearts…
Therefore a sabbath rest still remains for the people of God."
Heb, 4: 9

and I am not sorry if scripture offends you Palmas
you have enough sorrow as it is.

The Peace of Christ to you

gusano
[/quote]

Scripture does not offend me hermanito, mindless and meaningless quotation of it does. As an example I will tell you this. go to, oh pick a Protestant Church at ramdom. Try to stick with either the Baptists or Pentecostals or even the Witnesses or the Brethern. Listen to their preaching, listen to their apologists. I would estimate that between 75 and 90% of their message is scriptural quotations, which they have picked out, interpreted, used out of context and basicaly exploited to promote their own agenda. Thats the funny thing about Scripture hermanito, it can be interpreted to support almost any position whatsoever.

I believe the early fathers of the Church were correct and very foresighted, ( hum…foresight or prophecy, wasn’t that one of the early gifts of the Holy Spirit as well?), in the way they set the Church up so that we were NOT DEPENDENT ON SCRIPTURE ALONE , as so many Protestants are.

While I do not think I will ever believe in the Charismatics style of worship, and further believe in my heart that you have been led away from the true Church, I do believe hermanito, from our correspondence that you are sincere and that you both love and fear God.

Tu a la familia siempre estan en mis oraciones hermanito, que dios les bendiga.

COR JESU SACRATISSIMUM MISERERE NOBIS