Tongues during Holy Mass - Liturgical Abuse?

[Prometheum_x]

palmas85:

From this post I have to assume that the “tongue talkers” are in full control over their speaking experiences. However, as I understand the whole thing, the Holy Spirit chooses when to descend, and those involved don’t really have any control over it, never knowing exactly whenor how it is going to happen. I have researched this through Pentecostal apolegetics and I have spoken to a number of Pentecostals that I know and everyone has confirmed this fact. So… from this post it would appear to me that most of the “tongue talking” is not “spirit filled” but nothing more than an attention grabbing antic. See how holy I am!!! I always said that Catholics should leave these sort of things to the Pentecostals because they have a lot more experience at it and are a lot better at pulling it off convincingly.

Pentecostals, while to be admired for some of their fervor in seeking the Lord, do not have the benefit of the Teachings and Traditions of the Church, to whom the Scriptures have been entrusted. I would rather read the apologetic works of faithful Catholics who are associated with the Catholic Charismatic Renewal.

Or shall we say that we have the Father and the Son, Mary, and all the saints and angels, but let us leave the work and study of the Holy Spirit to the Pentecostals?

Hardly. The Pentecostals neither invented Pentecost nor the Holy Spirit

 

[Prometheum_x]

porthos11:

This happened in our diocese. In fact the whole gathering was a large one of charismatic groups. When our Archbishop, Cardinal Vidal elevated the sacred Host, they all broke out into tongues. The Cardinal got so mad, placed the Host down and chastised them, telling them that the posture for Consecration was Sacred Silence. After threatening never to say Mass for them again should they disobey him, he raised the Host again, this time to chastened quiet.

And rightly so. Sacred silence is sacred silence. Thus, at my specifically designated charismatic parish (a personal parish of the bishop), we are silent at the appropriate times during the Eucharistic prayer, such as the consecration (even at, gasp, the LifeTeen mass! )

 

[Prometheum_x]

There seem to be two issues here:

First, there is the issue of whether “tongues” as frequently expressed in charismatic circles is really a work of the Holy Spirit at all.

If it is not, my opinion is that the second issue is resolved already.

Second, if and only if these tongues are the work of the Holy Spirit, are there any times during the Mass at which this gift of the Holy Spirit may be exercised?

We cannot really address the second issue until we have resolved the first. If you are convinced that this is not the work of the Holy Spirit, or are quite skeptical of its origins, then very little could be said in defense of speaking in tongues during Mass. In that case we might as well ask, “Hopscotch during Holy Mass - Liturgical Abuse?”

---

One argument that is being presented here is a causal one:

If tongues were the work of the Holy Spirit, they wouldn’t be a cause for liturgical abuse.
There is liturgical abuse.
Therefore, tongues are not the work of the Holy Spirit.

However, as is evidenced by St. Paul’s letter to the Corinthians, the gifts of the Spirit can be abused. Paul does not say, “Look at your behavior. You do not have the Spirit of God.” No, he chastises them for their chaotic (or even schism causing) use of these gifts.

Further, we see in the Old Testament that the Spirit came even on the unrighteous! Read the following from 1 Samuel 19 (NIV, from www.biblegateway.com)

19 Word came to Saul: “David is in Naioth at Ramah”; 20 so he sent men to capture him. But when they saw a group of prophets prophesying, with Samuel standing there as their leader, the Spirit of God came upon Saul’s men and they also prophesied. 21 Saul was told about it, and he sent more men, and they prophesied too. Saul sent men a third time, and they also prophesied. 22 Finally, he himself left for Ramah and went to the great cistern at Secu. And he asked, “Where are Samuel and David?”
“Over in Naioth at Ramah,” they said. 23 So Saul went to Naioth at Ramah. But the Spirit of God came even upon him, and he walked along prophesying until he came to Naioth. 24 He stripped off his robes and also prophesied in Samuel’s presence. He lay that way all that day and night. This is why people say, “Is Saul also among the prophets?”

 

[Prometheum_x]

Just a quick posting of some links of interest, provided for the purpose of establishing the authenticity of the charismatic movement within the Catholic Church:

From the website of the International Catholic Charismatic Renewal Services:

Official recognition by the Holy See
iccrs.org/statutes.htm

From the same page as the above, the approved statutes
iccrs.org/statutes.htm#statutes

If you go to the main page, be forewarned that they have an obnoxious embedded midi file

 

[palmas85]

Prometheum_x:

Pentecostals, while to be admired for some of their fervor in seeking the Lord, do not have the benefit of the Teachings and Traditions of the Church, to whom the Scriptures have been entrusted. I would rather read the apologetic works of faithful Catholics who are associated with the Catholic Charismatic Renewal.

Or shall we say that we have the Father and the Son, Mary, and all the saints and angels, but let us leave the work and study of the Holy Spirit to the Pentecostals?

Hardly. The Pentecostals neither invented Pentecost nor the Holy Spirit

Quite correct and my point exactly. But they were the ones who were first “graced” by the Holy Spirit in modern times, were they not? They have had many years to “perfect” the practice and make it seem somewhat believeable. In fact our charismatics went to them for the laying of hands at the beginning of the movement, correct? Ours are mere novices in this charade. They(Catholic charismatics) generally look like a group of schoolboys enjoying their first cigarette, and thinking how cool they look.

They need to learn how to pull this deception off properly if they are going to indulge in it and who to learn it better from than our brothers the Pentecostals. They are experts at it.

 

[Prometheum_x]

palmas85:

Quite correct and my point exactly. But they were the ones who were first “graced” by the Holy Spirit in modern times, were they not? They have had many years to “perfect” the practice and make it seem somewhat believeable. In fact our charismatics went to them for the laying of hands at the beginning of the movement, correct? Ours are mere novices in this charade. They(Catholic charismatics) generally look like a group of schoolboys enjoying their first cigarette, and thinking how cool they look.

They need to learn how to pull this deception off properly if they are going to indulge in it and who to learn it better from than our brothers the Pentecostals. They are experts at it.

Except for your second statement, that is pretty much incorrect.

The Catholic charismatic renewal began independent of the pentecostals.

It is not a charade/deception. You speak of what you do not know.

I am charismatic. My parish itself has a charismatic identity, having been born out of the charismatic community which was founded by earliest Catholic charismatics, including some who were present in the place where it began. That community has in turn been an primary influence on the entire world wide Catholic Charismatic Renewal. My pastor is charismatic.

What we practice is no charade or deception. It is instead a strong devotion to God the Holy Spirit, which in turn inspires devotion to the Eucharist, vocations, and a deep call to conversion, as evidenced by faithfulness to the sacrament of Reconciliation.

 

[Aaron_I]

Speaking in tongues (what the more cynical among us might call “gibberish”) is perfectly okay in charismatic masses. Heck, that might help us get some Southern Baptists. I know that one of the female Doctors of the Church (Catherine of Siena?) used to go into a frenzied state of ecstasy during mass. That being said, outside of a charismatic mass it should not be allowed. It takes away from the focus of others and will just make people mad. I have to say that if someone started doing that in my parish, it would totally ruin my mass.

 

[gusano]

Lux_et_veritas:

Your argument seems to favor scripture alone, disregarding other things that make up the Catholic Deposit of Faith. Do you believe whole-heartedly with all that makes up the deposit of faith, or only scripture? In the deposit of faith is scipture, Canon Law, apostolic letters, councils, etc - namely, the items below:

I am glad you said “SEEMS”
Our Bishop Skylstadt once said;
“Our love of The Word of God should be as great as our love of the Eucharist.”
AMEN
And Jesus once said;
“You are badly misled because you know neither the Scripture nor the power of God.”

YES !
I believe with my whole heart, soul, mind, and strength, all that Jesus has deposited in The Catholic Faith.
My “warehouse of knowledge” is much smaller than yours…
but I love every cubic inch of it.
and I thoroughly Love The Eucharistic Liturgy, regardless of where I participate !
I quit worring about what people may think as I LIFT MY HEART TO THE LORD.

Lux_et_veritas:

In the case of “Tongues” at Holy Mass, I have already stated that I believe it to be an unintentional form of liturgical abuse, one that would require clarification from the Holy See. The activity distracts some present, who are “not gifted”, from a given moment in the Mass. I do not believe the Holy Spirit would drive people to engage in a practice during Holy Mass that would remove others from the sanctity of the moment, in particular when it occurs during the elevation.

Your argument further looses ground on the basis that **the priest does not own the Mass, rather it is owned by the Church **and the Church defines the rubrics. When the priest does not follow the rubrics, the faithful are denied their right to a fully valid Mass and one that is also free of illicit content.

No where in scripture will you find the Mass as we see it today. Therefore, scripture arguments alone will not suffice. The Mass was handed down to us through Sacred Tradition.

On the contrary, The Holy Spirit wants to DRAW us INTO THE SANCTITY OF THE MOMENT…and (hopefully) He is not drawing from a vacuum !

I have no idea who you are arguing against.
I was under the impression that This Church is Christ’s
He owns the Mass and and every sinner that approaches it.
He Gifted me with “Tongues” so that I could ENJOY the Mass.
So that I could speak mysteries in the Spirit to Him and He reveal mysteries in the Spirit to me…about His OFFERING while Mass is going on.

What in the world would cause you to think That a Gift or Friut of the Holy Spirit could be ILLICIT CONTENT ?
on the contrary,
A mass without The Presense , or any evidence of His presense would have to be considered ILLICIT. in my opinion.

Do you ever wonder why (2 Thess. 5: 19) The Holy Spirit inspired St. Paul to write that short verse ?
"Do not stifle the Spirit."

Which do you think is the worst sin?
“Sola scriptura”
or
“Resiste scriptura.”

?

gusano

 

[gusano]

palmas85:

Wow I can see the headlines now!!!

HOLY SPIRIT YIELDS TO ARCHBISHOPS DEMAND FOR SILENCE!!!

What a joke this whole thing has become.

From this post I have to assume that the “tongue talkers” are in full control over their speaking experiences. However, as I understand the whole thing, the Holy Spirit chooses when to descend, and those involved don’t really have any control over it, never knowing exactly whenor how it is going to happen. I have researched this through Pentecostal apolegetics and I have spoken to a number of Pentecostals that I know and everyone has confirmed this fact. So… from this post it would appear to me that most of the “tongue talking” is not “spirit filled” but nothing more than an attention grabbing antic. See how holy I am!!! I always said that Catholics should leave these sort of things to the Pentecostals because they have a lot more experience at it and are a lot better at pulling it off convincingly.

Sometimes the truth comes out in very simple ways.

Palmas
I am beginning to think you gravitate to SENSATIONALISM.
In all your posts I have read You indicate all the different people you consulted, and writings you have researched.
Very impressive.
Not once have I seen you say that you have consulted God about His Gift to us !

so I will have to conclude that all your “knowledge” concerning The Holy Spirit is hearsay.

Prothos11 did not say “THE SPIRIT YIELDS” to Arch-Bishop Vidal, …
He said “they” the Charismatics, were silent.
It means they obey the Authority of Christ in the Arch-Bishop.

From your own mind you invented “THE HEADLINES”…

what’s on your mind ?

gusano

 

[gusano]

palmas85:

Quite correct and my point exactly. But they were the ones who were first “graced” by the Holy Spirit in modern times, were they not? They have had many years to “perfect” the practice and make it seem somewhat believeable. In fact our charismatics went to them for the laying of hands at the beginning of the movement, correct? Ours are mere novices in this charade. They(Catholic charismatics) generally look like a group of schoolboys enjoying their first cigarette, and thinking how cool they look.

They need to learn how to pull this deception off properly if they are going to indulge in it and who to learn it better from than our brothers the Pentecostals. They are experts at it.

Palmas,
You have acquired much knowledge about the charismatic movements and you have strong feelings about it.

all your expressed knowledge seems to be from an outsider perspective.
forgive me if I am wrong,
Why would anyone in their right mind
"need to learn how to pull any deception off properly ?
and why would you counsel anyone to learn how to deceive ?

gusano

 

[Marian_Carroll]

**Posters in the thread need to step back and recall that the Charismatic Movement is a legitimate one for many devout Christitans. One is free to agree or disagree on whether all instances of it are legitimate. Each poster however, should be treating those on either side of the question with the respect, the courtesy and the charity due those who practice differently than oneself.

Please refrain from making disparaging remarks or questioning the spirituality of others. Stay with the topic of the thread, and edit your posts for tone and content.**

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

Thanks Marian.

I too want to remind people that I am not questioning the Charismatic Renewal in the Church, nor am I suggesting that tongues are not a legitimate gift of the Holy Spirit.

The topic of the thread is tongues during Holy Mass.

 

[palmas85]

Prometheum_x:

Except for your second statement, that is pretty much incorrect.

The Catholic charismatic renewal began independent of the pentecostals.

It is not a charade/deception. You speak of what you do not know.

I am charismatic. My parish itself has a charismatic identity, having been born out of the charismatic community which was founded by earliest Catholic charismatics, including some who were present in the place where it began. That community has in turn been an primary influence on the entire world wide Catholic Charismatic Renewal. My pastor is charismatic.

What we practice is no charade or deception. It is instead a strong devotion to God the Holy Spirit, which in turn inspires devotion to the Eucharist, vocations, and a deep call to conversion, as evidenced by faithfulness to the sacrament of Reconciliation.

.

The Catholic Charismatic movement did not begin independently. If you would like I will provide the dates and people involved. These are from an extensive amount of research that I did, including reading several thesis on the subject, both pro and con.

Since most modern Catholic Charismatics seem to be able to control when and how the Holy Spirit descends upon them, it does appear to be a charade. I doubt that the Holy Spirit is so easily controlled by man.

True the charisms were indeed present at the beginning of the Church. No doubt about it, they were. It is strange however that they were not in constant evidence throughout the Churches history after the first several centuries. That especially is true of speaking in tongues, the one area that Charismatics seem to place the most stock in.

If you are proud of being charismatic so be it.

 

[palmas85]

gusano:

Palmas
I am beginning to think you gravitate to SENSATIONALISM.
In all your posts I have read You indicate all the different people you consulted, and writings you have researched.
Very impressive.
Not once have I seen you say that you have consulted God about His Gift to us !

so I will have to conclude that all your “knowledge” concerning The Holy Spirit is hearsay.

Prothos11 did not say “THE SPIRIT YIELDS” to Arch-Bishop Vidal, …
He said “they” the Charismatics, were silent.
It means they obey the Authority of Christ in the Arch-Bishop.

From your own mind you invented “THE HEADLINES”…

what’s on your mind ?

gusano

But Gusano, it is supposed to be the Holy Spirit speaking through them, is it not??? I mean, the whole point of speaking in tongues is that the Holy Spirit speaks through you. That’s what you guys claim anyway. And if that is the case, then the Holy Spirit is the one who heeded the Bishops call to silence.

You are not going to tell me that the tongue talkers speak on their own initiative are you??? That flies squarely in the face of your movements own claimed position.

As far as consulting God, my hermanito, I am neither arrogant or foolish enough to say that God and I sit down and speak to each other. I pray to him, and if I am lucky and blessed he responds. That however, is Gods decision, not mine.

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

palmas85:

But Gusano, it is supposed to be the Holy Spirit speaking through them, is it not??? I mean, the whole point of speaking in tongues is that the Holy Spirit speaks through you. That’s what you guys claim anyway. And if that is the case, then the Holy Spirit is the one who heeded the Bishops call to silence.

You are not going to tell me that the tongue talkers speak on their own initiative are you??? That flies squarely in the face of your movements own claimed position.

As far as consulting God, my hermanito, I am neither arrogant or foolish enough to say that God and I sit down and speak to each other. I pray to him, and if I am lucky and blessed he responds. That however, is Gods decision, not mine.

This was my thought too. That if tongues fell silent at the command of the archbishop, and IF it were legitimate tongues, then it would be the Holy Spirit who obeyed the command, not the people. Gifts such as tongues, healing, and even the ability to enter deep contemplation are not switches humans can turn on and off. It is only by the grace of God and his Holy Spirit that these things can happen. This is unlike my ability to choose to turn the water faucet on. Certainly it is the grace of God that I have this ability, but it is within my control.

One cannot heal without the will of God through his Holy Spirit. A seer cannot see the BVM in an apparition without the will of God. One cannot is not capable of prophecy without the will of God and the spirit working through him.

So, when an archbishop commands tongues to cease in Holy Mass, then either the Holy Spirit Himself, or the people themselves, obeyed the command. I’m leaning to the latter leading me to believe it is not a true gift (see quote again below). I cannot make the same claim for tongues outside of the Mass. I’m not arguing against tongues, I’m arguing against it during the Mass. I’m further arguing that there should be no special Mass to enable tongues. The Mass is Mass, not something to be altered for the benefit of special groups, outside the norms prescribed in special cases. Now if someone can show me in any church document where tongues itself is authorized during any part of Holy Mass then that may suffice.

**The Corinthians, misled not by insincerity but by simplicity and ignorance (20), were actuated by an undisciplined religious spirit (pneuma), or rather by frenzied emotions and not by the understanding (nous) of the Spirit of God (15). **

I would like to supplement the underlined in this way:

…frenzied “feel good” emotions…

Holy Mass is never about what makes us feel good. It is about what is pleasing to God. The Mass is a sacrifice and more often than not, it involves sacrifices - like going when you don’t feel like it, or not entering into a frenzied state of vocals where the rubrics state some other content or posture is to be taking place.

It might make me feel good to begin singing Adoramus Te in an audible voice right during the middle of the Gloria. Or, during Elevation. What prevents me from doing this? The rubrics of the Mass. I cannot add, remove or change content.

 

[Prometheum_x]

palmas85:

The Catholic Charismatic movement did not begin independently. If you would like I will provide the dates and people involved. These are from an extensive amount of research that I did, including reading several thesis on the subject, both pro and con.

Certainly, provide the dates and people involved (Duquesne, David Wilkerson, 1967 come to mind). I am not denying interaction between Catholics and others, but a causal relationship.

Since most modern Catholic Charismatics seem to be able to control when and how the Holy Spirit descends upon them, it does appear to be a charade. I doubt that the Holy Spirit is so easily controlled by man.

The Holy Spirit does not descend on you repeatedly. He dwells within you, by virtue of Baptism and Confirmation. To each is given as the Spirit wills - some can speak in tongues more than others (St Paul: “I thank God I speak in tongues more than all of you”)

True the charisms were indeed present at the beginning of the Church. No doubt about it, they were. It is strange however that they were not in constant evidence throughout the Churches history after the first several centuries. That especially is true of speaking in tongues, the one area that Charismatics seem to place the most stock in.

There was also a conscpicuous absence of teaching on the explicit subject of papal infallibility in the first many centuries. Or, for example, there are no known cases of the stigmata prior to St. Francis. A strange absence indeed. But why do we make such a big deal out of tongues? Only because those who oppose us make such a big deal out of them. We regard it as the least of the gifts (St. Paul says prophecy is greater, and to be desired more than tongues)

To whom do you attribute the healings, miracles, prophecies, and speaking in tongues that have come with the charismatic movement?

 

[Anthony_s_Mom]

Prometheum X

Thanks for all that you are saying - great arguments, keep it up. This thread makes me too angry to read it all - such blindness here - keep doing what you are doing though, for those of us who just can’t read anymore without being in the near occasion of sin

 

[Marian_Carroll]

Moderator Intervention:

This is a final comment on the thread from the Moderator. It is my hope and I believe the hope of some posters in the thread that it can be used as a valuable teaching tool. Charismatics have the opportunity to explain to others how and what they believe has been of spiritual growth and value to them in their movement. Those who do not agree or who have doubts and/or questions have the opportunity to voice them and the subject of Tongues During Mass. Those conversations need to be held with the commonality of charity and forbearance of sons and daughters in faith joined together in belief, yet different in practice.

Please edit your posts for tone and content keeping the above in mind making every effort not to put words in the mouths of others. Speak your own and in doing so recall the fruits of the Holy Spirit.

 

[gusano]

palmas85:

But Gusano, it is supposed to be
the Holy Spirit speaking through them, is it not??? I mean, the whole point of speaking in tongues is that
the Holy Spirit speaks through you.

That’s what you guys claim anyway. And if that is the case, then the Holy Spirit is the one who heeded the Bishops call to silence.

You are not going to tell me that the tongue talkers speak
on their own initiative are you??? That flies squarely in the face of your movements own claimed position.

As far as consulting God, my hermanito, I am neither arrogant or foolish enough to say that God and I sit down and speak to each other. I pray to him, and if I am lucky and blessed he responds. That however, is Gods decision, not mine.

Remember that the Holy Spirit “PROMPTS” those He indwells.
He does not remove a person’s will.
One is always free to respond to the “PROMPTING” or not .
and, there is always the possibility of one speaking out of one’s own ego…hoping it will be the Spirit.
The challenge of discernment is to determine where the inspiration, in us the speaker, is coming from.

Acts 2: 4…"They began to express themselves in foreigh tongues and make bold proclamation as the Spirit PROMPTED them."

Matt. 10: 20…"You yourselves will not be the speakers;
the Spirit of your Father will be speaking in you."

Psalm 45: 1 …"My heart overflows with a goodly theme; as I sing my ode to the King,
my tongue is nimble as the pen of a skillful scribe."

It is a good idea to consecrate our tongue to The Holy Spirit because of James 3: 1-18.

Peace

gusano

 

[Joysong]

Gusmano:

Remember that the Holy Spirit “PROMPTS” those He indwells.
He does not remove a person’s will.
One is always free to respond to the “PROMPTING” or not .

You made an excellent and most true point, Gusmano. It is difficult for those who have not experienced the charisms of the Holy Spirit to understand this, for in their way of thinking about those things which they do not experience personally, I can see how easy it would be to err.

Speculative thinking is probably the root of all the controversy concerning the charisms/gifts. For instance, when an average person reads that the scriptures were written by holy men directly under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, the picture that one may easily form is that these men sat at table with pen in hand while the Holy Spirit dictated words for them to write. It would suggest that the author had no “control” over what was said, and was in somewhat of a listening, or possibly an ecstatic trance.

God is Spirit, so when He communicates to man, very often it is in a flash type of moment that is replete with superabundant meaning. It is sometimes referred to by St. Teresa as “intellectual vision” for the mind and understanding is full of light, without seeing anything. The soul understands its meaning as much as its capacity is able, but is left with the task of translating the communication into the vehicle of human language to convey it to others. This is why our saints had so difficult a time in putting the “inexpressible” into language, and why we have so many varied synonyms which all underlie and convey the same meaning. The Spirit does not infringe upon man’s free will to choose the wording to transmit it.

This is also what happens with the charism of* prophecy*. In the Old Testament, we read, “Thus says the Lord …” and we get the same idea that man was under dictation and the words chosen were verbatum. The prophecy is utterly true, but the format of communication, truly inspired by God, is man’s cooperation with God in transmitting it.

We may apply the same principle to healing. God will inspire a person to heal, but the person is free to hold back or use it. There is no overtaking the person’s will in the use of the charisms whatsoever, including tongues. He may prompt us, as you mentioned, but man is free and under perfect control of its use, able to begin and stop at will. The prayer usually lasts until the person perceives inwardly that it is time to end it.

As for the immediate cessation of tongues in the incident with the eminent Cardinal, this demonstrates to me the authenticity of the Spirit in those at mass who are ready to follow their lawful superiors at all times. Yes, they are in control of the prayer tongues and may hear and do what is commanded at that moment … in other words, they have control in exercising the gift.

Carole