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grannymh
Guest
Not necessarily a function.
In the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, one refers to a manifestation of the power of the Holy Spirit.
Scripture:
1 Corinthians, 12: 1-11 (especially verse 7)
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In the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, one refers to a manifestation of the power of the Holy Spirit.
Scripture:
1 Corinthians, 12: 1-11 (especially verse 7)
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jcrichton
Guest
Hi, Granny!
…a “function” as in, it is the Holy Spirit that Delegates/Cedes the Gifts.
Maran atha!
Angel
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Reuben_J
Guest
The gifts are to upbuild the body (of Christ) which are for the Spirit to give.
More importantly that in order to receive them, one must be a willing vessel, of course like you said, not necessarily must very holy or talented, because God can use us if we are willing to be used. Every part of the body is important and thus there is always a role for a part (a person) of the body to play (serve).
Some people do not want to use the gift (to serve) and therefore it will not flourish.
God is like the vineyard owner or the king with the feast, looking for laborers and guests respectively, but few really would come to respond and those who come may not be prepared or come with the wrong clothing.
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e_c
Guest
He also uses unwilling or unwitting vessels. See Caiaphas’ prophecy about Jesus, for example. John 11:49-52 “But one of them, named Caiphas, being the high priest that year, said to them: You know nothing. Neither do you consider that it is expedient for you that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not. And this he spoke not of himself: but being the high priest of that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for the nation. And not only for the nation, but to gather together in one the children of God, that were dispersed.”
The gifts are to upbuild the body (of Christ) which are for the Spirit to give.
More importantly that in order to receive them, one must be a willing vessel, of course like you said, not necessarily must very holy or talented, because God can use us if we are willing to be used. Every part of the body is important and thus there is always a role for a part (a person) of the body to play (serve).
Some people do not want to use the gift (to serve) and therefore it will not flourish.
God is like the vineyard owner or the king with the feast, looking for laborers and guests respectively, but few really would come to respond and those who come may not be prepared or come with the wrong clothing.
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Roseeurekacross
Guest
I went to Charismatic group, I was speaking in tongues before that, all on my lonesome.
I am still unconvinced the devil cant requiste this and use it. How does anyone know they arent babbling blaspheme.
I am still unconvinced the devil cant requiste this and use it. How does anyone know they arent babbling blaspheme.
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Reuben_J
Guest
Between God and the Devil, it is pretty easy to see the difference. Basic litmus test would be to see whether something brings peace to the person if it comes from the Spirit.
In the Charismatic Renewal, a person must be willing to test the gift (for all gifts must be subjected to the test) and submit to the discernment of a body of more experienced members.
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grannymh
Guest
First.
There is a mountain of difference between the common gift of praying in Tongues and the classical gifts of St. Paul which are the ones that are considered ministries to build up the Catholic Church.
Second.
Which Tongues gift were you using? If you cannot explain which Tongues gift you were using – then what were you doing?
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grannymh
Guest
In the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, what are some of the gifts you are referring to?
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Roseeurekacross
Guest
Well if everyone is speaking in tongues, singing in tongues, all at once, you wouldn’t know.
A person needs to work these things out for themselves, and sometimes question what happens to individuals after the event.
What’s the test of using tongues in these meetings. We could very well be praying in the vernacular.
All gifts are for the community, the church, the Glory of God, not the individual.
I believe the devil would be very good at whipping up a false peace in a person.
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Roseeurekacross
Guest
You could explain what praying in tongues in a group at one of these meetings is about. Have you actually experienced the difference?
Praying /singing in tongues for its own sake doesn’t build up the Church. It’s not ministering outside a room of believers.
People just start talking or singing in tongues. Whereas there is no common praying or singing of tongues in the Bible without interpretation. It’s meant to be about one talking, one interpreting.
Ever experienced that? And if that’s happening the person speaking in tongues is a prophet of sorts. We cant all be prophets.
I rather see a bunch of people wanting to speak in tongues and doing so, with no idea about the interpretation of their words.
Jesus did not teach us to pray the Our Father in tongues.
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Reuben_J
Guest
Hi.
I think you should know what this topic is all about first. The way you present your questions is more like an accusation on something that you do not have a knowledge about.
I am trying to grasp what your objection really is, which seem from what you wrote that the speaking in tongue could come from the Devil instead of the Holy Spirit.
I told you already that it can be discerned as to whether it is from the Holy Spirit or the Devil. The simple test would be the fruit - does it give you peace or confusion?
I can explain to you how to discern and what are the possible sources of the gift, but that would be like giving you a seminar.
Now your concern. If it is from the Devil, then it would be discovered very fast because it will lead you to thing that is against God and the Church, for example sin. The gift of the Holy Spirit on the other hand would produce fruits, for example growth.
The Church leaders like the clergy and even the leaders in the Renewal itself should be able to recognize this.
It is not a big problem.
But think about the benefit. Jesus himself promised the Holy Spirit (John 14). Why can’t you believe that actually can happen as it happened to the apostles during the Pentecost?
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Roseeurekacross
Guest
Hi Reuben, it’s not an accusation, more a frustration. It’s hard to convey meaning over the internet.
Firstly, I have done the life in the spirit course. And am part of a Charismatic group. Yes I have reservations about some aspects. One big one, a question still unanswered for me is, how do we know the tongues we are speaking or singing are from the Holy Spirit or being hijacked by the devil. Really know.
Speaking or singing tongues gives me doubt about where it’s from, as stated, and also a great sense I am discussing one main Old Testament biblical topic, which is kind of strange.
I don’t have the experience of other groups or Catholic tongue speaking sessions to compare, no base water line to this group. I could go visit a non Catholic group that speaks in tongues in their service but that would defeat the purpose of discernment and comparison.
We all sin, regardless of how we pray, even Holy Father Pope Francis says he does. So that doesn’t really convince me of the merits of praying in tongues as an influence of one or good or evil. I am on an exponential growth in faith that hasn’t been affected negatively by the group or speaking in tongues. Will that level out? I hope not. When God says hey you, He means it. The more we see, the mor we will see and understand. The more our love for Jesus grows.
I am quite cautious about using tongues until I have the whole thing Sussed. It’s
been quite a battle to this point to have the good spirit influencing my life without interference from the bad. Who knows if that will ever stop, I guess it means we are on the right path, that narrow rocky one and won’t easily be pushed off.
I 100% know Pentecost and the Apostles spoke in tongues as the Holy Spirit touched them. There was a purpose to that, spreading the Gospel in different languages to different peoples.
I have yet to see someone or hear of someone in this setting step forward and be able to interpret what is being said. And up to 20 people can be praying in tongues simultaneously.
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Roseeurekacross
Guest
Forgot to say Angels speak in the vernacular when they want to communicat with us.
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grannymh
Guest
In the real Catholic Charismatic Renewal, there is a gift of the Holy Spirit which is meant for the individual.
May I gently suggest that readers read my posts about the real Catholic Charismatic Renewal.
Post 18 is important in the real Catholic Charismatic Renewal.
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grannymh
Guest
If you were at a real Catholic Charismatic Renewal meeting for the first time and one of the members was guiding you, you would be told that somewhere in the early part of the meeting individual members would pray to God. This is Gift 1. We speak to God. (from post 18) You have the free choice to pray to God in Tongues or not. In the Catholic Charismatic Renewal group I attended long ago, a wonderful woman used the vernacular to pray to God. Occasionally, I would stand near her and join her in vernacular prayer.
In the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, it is important for people to pray to God in some form, for example the Rosary.
Praying in Tongues means that a person freely chooses to pray to God in Tongues in the appropriate manner. The appropriate manner is first the desire to use the Holy Spirit Gift of Tongues to pray to God. One uses the gift of Tongues by yielding one’s speech mechanism to the Holy Spirit. This includes freeing your mind from your normal way of praying. It is letting go so that the Holy Spirit can take over.
The simple reason that we want the Holy Spirit to take over is that He prays perfectly by using one’s freely given speech mechanism.
In real life, individuals within a group are free to choose their individual way of praying to God. Praying in Tongues is solely a free decision of each individual.
Because praying in Tongues is praying to God, there is no reason for someone else to interpret the prayer. The person who is praying to God in Tongues accepts the fact that the Holy Spirit is doing that correctly.
The beauty of praying in Tongues is that a person can do that in a group or in the shower.
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grannymh
Guest
Thank you. This answers some of my questions.
Still, I wonder why you keep using the phrase “speaking in Tongues.” That is why I keep referring to the real Catholic Charismatic Renewal where you should have been taught the real difference between “speaking in Tongues” and "praying in Tongues.
Unfortunately, there are a few instructors who do not go into some of the deeper areas.
Regarding the common gift of praying to God in Tongues, the Devil would not hijack your prayer because the Devil does not pray to God.
The second gift which employs Tongues is part of St. Paul’s list in 1 Corinthians, chapter 12. All of us need to remember that the Corinthians knew about and practiced gifts from the Holy Spirit. Basically, this beloved people fell into some bad practices. In 1 Corinthians, chapter 14, St. Paul “loudly” states what should be done. Our difficulty is that we are not Corinthians and there is a bit of difficulty interpreting St. Paul correctly.
What we do is to use the current teachings of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal as a foundation. I say “current” because the first years of the Renewal were in a mess because of this objection and that objection. The Bishops stepped in and discerned what was from the Holy Spirit and what was not. Years back on CAF, I was grateful to read some of the documents being used for not
approving the Catholic Charismatic Renewal. Believe me, the Holy Spirit was very busy in those years.
Today, the Catholic Charismatic Renewal is under the supervision of the Bishop of the diocese. A Vicar can be given this job.
Getting myself back to the two Holy Spirit Gifts which employ the use of Tongues, I am interested in what you were taught or not taught about the difference between the two gifts.
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Reuben_J
Guest
Hi again. Thanks for your post. It helps for me to know where you came from.
I should say that is good enough – you had attended Life in the Spirit course and were part of the Charismatic Renewal.
It is ok not to believe in the gift of tongue (for you) especially if you think it is not for you.
My point probably in all this is that there is such a thing as speaking or singing in tongue and that they are real and not all are fakes. Remember Charismatic Renewal is one of the spirituality in the Catholic Church recognized as a move of the Holy Spirit. Granted some spirituality is not for all Catholics but it does not mean it is not true. That should be an important point to take from this.
Basically as I presumed earlier on, your problem is: how do we know it is really from the Holy Spirit and not otherwise?
First of all, since it is a gift, not everybody has it but ‘as the Spirit gives’. You could have another gift, another talent, perhaps natural talent but enhanced by the Spirit for you to serve or for your growth. Or of course, it can be a purely charismatic gift which you never had before and have it now.
We know gifts are given or they happened as testified by many people who experienced them.
So do not worry if you do not have the gift of tongue. You do not have to in order to grow in the Lord.
As to how we know it is from the Spirit?
There are prerogatives of course for that.
First, one has to be open to the Holy Spirit.
Second, one does not reject the gift and perhaps desires it. One can ask for it if one desires it.
Thirdly, it is the Spirit that gives despite we desire or ask for it.
Then the three probable sources: (1) The Devil, (2) Our human spirit and (3) the Holy Spirit.
Roughly, the first would lead us to negativity, the second would not have much effect on our growth while the third we would bear fruits.
We actually can easily discern if it is from Satan by minimizing his involvement. In a situation where the focus is on Jesus, worshipping him and where we surrender our hearts to God and undergo repentance and where we invoke the Holy Spirit, Satan would has no place there.
Of course even in that situation, there would be manifestation (by the Devil), due to probably a person still had not repented enough and carried with him some sin and unrepented past. That may call for deliverance.
My advice is if you have doubt, then do not do it - the basic test for the gift of the Holy Spirit. If you think it is from the Spirit, test it or discuss with a third person. Even if you do not have the gift of tongue, you have nothing to lose because God being a good God would bless you with other things. You are a unique person and God can bless you in your uniqueness.
God bless.
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grannymh
Guest
It is a good a good thing that I will be traveling.
Apparently, no one is interested in what the Holy Spirit does when He gives the gift of Tongues.
Apparently, no one is interested in what the Holy Spirit does when He gives the gift of Tongues.
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friardchips
Guest
I’m sorry, I didn’t see that you’d replied.
- Hasn’t the Catholic Church always been charismatic, via grace?
- If we speak to God, we don’t need another language to do so, so why the need to speak in a language we don’t understand - that is not communication, surely?
- God Wills Himself (Love) in the silence - doesn’t the idea of tongues denote the opposite?
If you can add anything to this, maybe to extrapolate (if that’s the right word) a little, on your above post, for the benefit of others, including myself, to do with the Charismatic Renewal, then please do (wow, that sentence had a lot of commas!
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