Tongues with Respect to Real Language

[DebChris]

unamsanctamcatholicam.com/theology/81-theology/456-tongues-of-fire.html
I posted the above link as interesting reading. It does talk about an instance of what could be referred to as a gift of hearing. When we lived in Japan, my father described one such conversation. He did not speak Japanese and the man with whom he held a conversation did not speak English. Yet they were able to communicate with each other for an hour while sitting on the side of the road.

You are welcome at any time to come to a Charismatic prayer meeting and see for yourself.
Unlike the Assembly of God and other non-Catholic churches, the Catholic Church does not put as much emphasis on the manifestation of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, or charisms, as it does on continued growth and life long conversion.
There are many who question the authenticity of the gift of tongues. I just read an article stating that it is a learned behavior.
That doesn’t explain how a person with no natural singing voice is able to sing in tongues. Nothing is impossible with God. I will not deny my skepticism the first time I watched a group of people praying in tongues. Of course, they were not a Catholic group and I had other concerns about their worship service. The person who had invited me to her service refused my return invitation to join me at a Catholic Mass.

 

[grannymh]

Personally, I appreciate the presentations of Medawlinno. In my opinion, it is important to understand all sources of objections to valid Tongues.

Years back, I was fortunate to learn many of the Catholic objections to the current Catholic Charismatic Renewal. Knowing objections is important when one is speaking about Tongues as used in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal. Knowing current objections, apparently, is a life long endeavor.

 

[DebChris]

The following is quoted from Alice Hall, Source at the bottom of the post.
"As with all the gifts of the Spirit, these graces (or charisms), as St. Thomas Aquinas taught, are for evangelisation – the sharing of the faith.

This is obvious in the case of speaking in tongues (as opposed to praying in tongues); for example, one friend at university was enabled by the Holy Spirit to speak to a group of French students, even though he knew no French. He was not only able to help them but also to share his faith with these young people.

I’ve also heard of a man who went to a synagogue and started praying along in tongues and heard later from his neighbour in the service that he had been praying fluently in Hebrew.

The most obvious example of speaking in tongues was at the very first Pentecost in Acts 2:4-11, where the disciples shared the gospel and all the people present heard “telling in our own tongues the mighty works of God!”

Whether to demonstrate God’s existence through ‘astonishing’ the hearer, or simply by enabling a person to be able to hear God’s word in their own language, it is an obvious gift for evangelisation.

At times in public worship a person might ‘prophesy’ in tongues. On these occasions, the group should pray for an interpretation of what has been said in order that the group is able to hear God’s word. The interpretation of tongues is another gift that the Spirit gives."

• See more at: ccr.org.uk/articles/what-is-the-gift-of-tongues/#sthash.WAy6lYN3.dpuf

 

[Roseeurekacross]

Does a person praying in tongues feel it to be a different experience to when praying the Lord’s Prayer of Glory Be?

 

[DebChris]

Does a person praying in tongues feel it to be a different experience to when praying the Lord’s Prayer of Glory Be?

Yes. It is a different experience.
When we pray the Lord’s Prayer or Doxology, we recite the words in our own language. As St. Teresa of Avila says in her excellent dissertation on prayer in her book, The Way of Perfection, it is important to think about each word that we recite. She focuses on the mental aspect of the prayers, and on the greatest commandment. Focusing on the words of the Lord’s Prayer, the person prays not only vocally (even if silently), but also mentally. This can lead to contemplative prayer. Contemplative prayer is a gift from God.

A charism is a gift of the Holy Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit who prays through the person. He or she is not praying a memorized prayer such as the Our Father or Glory Be. Very often the individual will begin with simple praise. “Praise you, Jesus. I love, Jesus…” and allow the Holy Spirit to take over.
When I was new to the Charismatic Renewal, I heard the story of a Carmelite nun who was skeptical of her need for the gift. She already spent hours in prayers, but said, “Lord, if it is from you, why should I refuse?” The result she found was that before it had taken her up to 2 hours before she reached the point of contemplative prayer. After receiving the gift of tongues, she was able to reach the contemplative state in ten minutes.

There are times for both types of prayer. God gives His gifts as He chooses. Having a charism does not mean a person is holier or more devout than a person without such a gift. One sign of love is being open to gifts from the lover. Our lover is God.
When the Apostles asked Our Lord how to pray, He taught them the Our Father. St. Teresa considered one Our Father prayed slowly and correctly better than numerous poorly recited prayers quickly rattled off. There is a reason it is included in every Mass and toward the end of Lauds and Vespers.

Whether praying a recited prayer or praying in tongues, the focus of prayer is still the lifting of hearts and minds to God. That doesn’t change.

 

[grannymh]

Does a person praying in tongues feel it to be a different experience to when praying the Lord’s Prayer of Glory Be?

Yes. Because the experience includes yielding our speech mechanism directly to the Holy Spirit. Praying in Tongues means we let go of our rational powers of memory or intellect which we usually use in praying and speaking in our native tongue. We give our lips, tongue and larynx to the Holy Spirit.

Yes, St. Paul would know many languages. When he prayed to God, he set aside each language so that the Holy Spirit could pray within him.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

I am hoping to get some insight into a few questions I had regarding tongues.

Guess this needs to be done in two posts, so #1…

Specifically, I’m looking at situations where the speaker will ‘pray with’ or ‘pray over’ a person in tongues (this person I’ll refer to as the ‘recipient’) and the recipient will hear it as his/her native language, which the speaker does not know nor has ever been exposed to in any way shape or form. As I understand it, this typically will occur in a more private setting as opposed to a more public setting such as a church service.

As a Linguist, I have studied the phenomenon of tongues and, without getting into details (which can be found elsewhere on this forum), suffice to say that I am working on the premise that there are no known provable cases of what is known as xenoglossy/xenoglossia; the ability to speak a language one has never had any previous contact with in any way, shape or form.

So, to the questions –

Despite the premise outlined above, the Pentecostal/Charismatic community is rife with examples of ‘tongues’ being heard/understood as real language(s). It is truly unfortunate that no such cases have ever been documented and studied as it would answer a lot of debates and questions. I am not beyond believing that that the divine can speak to a third party through someone. In fact, this is common in a lot of faith traditions around the world and, is more the “correct” (if I can call it that) usage of the tool of glossolalia as it is practiced around the world.

If for a moment we can take these occurrences (situations where the speaker will ‘pray with’ or ‘pray over’ a person in tongues and the recipient will hear it as his/her native language) at face value, it begs a few questions:

1. Is the speaker actually shifting their non-cognitive non-language utterances (NC-NLU’s, a/k/a glossolalia) to a real language?
2. Is the recipient physically hearing the speaker in his/her language?
3. Is the recipient only subconsciously hearing his/her own language?

The unfortunate thing is that, from what I’ve been able to learn, these occurrences seem to always occur on a one-to-one basis; there never seems to be anyone else there to verify what’s going on with respect to the above questions.

I would argue that, unless proven otherwise, scenario one is probably unlikely. If the speaker is actually shifting from NC-NLU’s to real language, it would be something instantly and very obvious to any third party present. I have never heard of any such accounts reported.

With scenario two, if the recipient is physically hearing the speaker in his/her language, the additional question it begs is: if a third party were there, what would they hear; NC-NLU’s or real language?

If real language, then scenario one would be the answer – the speaker is shifting from NC-NLU’s to real language.

If however any third party present is still hearing NC-NLU’s while the recipient is hearing his/her language, then this would be a question of how what is being spoken by the speaker is perceived by the listener(s) (recipient and any third party); i.e. what we can for now term a “miracle of hearing”.

With scenario three, if the speaker is not shifting to a real language and the recipient is also hearing it as NC-NLU’s but subconsciously receiving a message in his/her language, then the situation is similar to scenario two; however, what the recipient is hearing is not actually anything being spoken in any way by the speaker. In this case, the NC-NLU’s are serving as a tool by which the message is subconsciously perceived by the recipient in his/her language.

continued…

From a strictly scientific POV the lack or recordings to easily confirm your question in a world full of recording devices speaks volumes.
Clearly you will never get objective evidence a true language is being spoken by those who never heard or learnt it.
Does that mean it doesn’t happen and that God sees to it these miracles never go beyond 1 on 1? Who knows.

For myself I long ago gave up trying to find pixies in my backyard at dusk that disappear when you get up close. It may well be true, but it makes no difference to my life either way if for all practical purposes the truth cannot be confirmed.

 

[DebChris]

Since the subject has been touched upon as part of the larger question, I will touch on the issue of praying in tongues while praying for a person’s healing.

As noted throughout this thread, I have had the fortune of being able to travel.
Before living in the Middle East, one of the parishes that I regularly attended would have healing services on a fairly regular basis. While sponsored by the parish Charismatic prayer group, they were open to the whole parish, and not advertised as Charismatic.
Information about the Charismatic Renewal was provided at the front of the church for those with questions.
The healing service always begins with the Mass.
After the Mass, prayer groups form for the laying of hands over those who come forward.
Only the priest can administer the Sacrament of the Anointing of the Sick.

When an individual comes to be prayed over, he tells those who are praying over him/her a particular problem for which to pray. In a setting such as the one given, there are generally only 3 people at each station to pray for the individual. Tongues may be used, and a word of encouragement given.

Since many who come to these healing services are unfamiliar with the Charismatic Renewal, what is happening is usually explained by the priest or deacon during the homily. Everything is kept as low key as possible. I have had individuals come to me with questions, or felt moved to go to a person who looked confused to help answer concerns he or she might have.
When a person is being prayed over, of course the reason or illness is confidential. I don’t reveal the reason a person comes to me and asks for my prayers.

People on other threads have reported negative experiences, or responses to the Charismatic Renewal. Often what I read seems to come from a misunderstanding or misinterpretation of events. There is no question that some become overzealous, especially when they are new, which is why discernment is such a key issue when it comes to the spiritual gifts.

Experience is not something that can be intellectualized.

 

[edwest2]

The Bible is clear about Tongues.

1 Corinthians 14:5

New International Version
“I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.”

New Living Translation
“I wish you could all speak in tongues, but even more I wish you could all prophesy. For prophecy is greater than speaking in tongues, unless someone interprets what you are saying so that the whole church will be strengthened.”

English Standard Version
“Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be built up.”

I had a Charismatic Christian pray over me and she spoke in tongues, which she also interpreted as: “Continue to do my will.”

This is a purely spiritual experience. It is considered a spiritual gift.

Ed

 

[grannymh]

Just a quick thought regarding a third party verifying Tongues as a Real Language. While that is an interesting proposal, both Holy Spirit Gifts which employ Tongues do not need a third party to be valid. The “Real Language” is the person reaching up to God or the “Real Language” is the person presenting God’s message to the assembly.

 

[DebChris]

Does a person praying in tongues feel it to be a different experience to when praying the Lord’s Prayer of Glory Be?

Prayer is the lifting up of heart and mind to God. Of course prayer takes different forms, from the vocal prayer of the Our Father to the Contemplative. God knows the desire of the heart.

Praying in tongues involves allowing the Holy Spirit to pray through us. By virtue of our Baptism and Confirmation, it is the indwelling Spirit that prays in accordance with God’s Will. Privately, it may be during times of distress when we don’t even know how to pray, and the Holy Spirit knows even our most inward groanings. While praying privately, there is no concern for interpretation. While considered “the least of the gifts,” it does remain a spiritual gift to which a person can yield at any time.

It is only during public assembly that what is spoken needs an interpreter. If I am with somebody and I do not speak the language, than some one needs to interpret what is said in order for there to be communication.
When a person speaks in tongues within the assembly, what is spoken is interpreted.
The Catholic Charismatic Renewal has specific procedures in place, especially when larger groups gather, in order ensure proper discernment.

 

[grannymh]

There are two distinct separate gifts of the Holy Spirit which employ Tongues.

Only St. Paul’s classical Tongues gift of Releasing God’s Message requires someone who has the classical gift of Interpretation of Tongues. 1Corinthias, chapter 12. The difference between speaking (Tongues) God’s message intended to build up the Church and personal (speaking) Tongues praying to God is given in 1Corinthians, chapter 14. Warning. It can be difficult to discern St. Paul’s language; therefore, one has to study context.

Praying in Tongues in public never needs an interpretation because God is the recipient of the prayer. Releasing God’s message in Tongues is often considered a ministry which benefits the Church and therefore, there has to be someone who specifically has received the unique gift of Interpretation of Tongues.

 

[Tomyris]

Does a person praying in tongues feel it to be a different experience to when praying the Lord’s Prayer of Glory Be?

I wanted to respond to this.

It IS a different experience. It does not necessarily FEEL that way. You can pray in the spirit with your mind, but if your spirit is praying, your mind might follow along. You might pray with your mind and your spirit may follow. Since mind and spirit are in some kind of mysterious relationship, it is hard to go any farther than that. I can pray in tongues and nothing else seems to be different, whether in the mind or will or emotions. On the other hand I can sometimes pray in tongues and “stuff happens”, a phrase that is useless unless you know what I mean. My courage may kick on. My faith may rise. I may have a flash of insight or something, or prayer may be more effective. I may be more joyful. Would someone get healed if I had not prayed in tongues for them? We will never know. We will never know the opposite, either. And sometimes I pray in tongues and there does not seem to be anything different. Sometimes when I pray in English the prayers seem dull and dry and bounce off heaven’s gate. Often, though, when I have prayed in tongues and then pray in English the prayers seem much more alive.

I totally reject the idea that somehow the brain is in some kind of altered psychological state when one is praying in tongues. Maybe I have been praying in tongues so long I am permanently in that state, so there is no alteration.

If there are no angelic tongues, does that mean angels cannot communicate with each other? I don’t think so.

 

[Medawlinno]

To comment on a few posts in no particular order –

Angels are pure spirit, ‘light beings’ as some put it. Though there’s no reason to think that they do not communicate, I personally think it is a form of communication we can neither clearly comprehend nor duplicate. In any case, I highly doubt it’s with anything that resembles a human vocal tract.

I don’t think it’s any type of altered state either, though some people report that it’s similar to being engrossed in a good book; you’re aware of everything that’s going on around you, but in a way, you’re not really a part of it; you’re kind of in your own world (if you’ve ever been engrossed in a good book while in a room of people and the TV going, etc., you know what I mean).

A question for clarification – when you say the Holy Spirit prays through you – is the H/S ‘praying in general’, praying on your behalf….what? Either way, it sounds like the H/S is praying to God, but since the H/S is one of the three persons of the Trinity, why would the H/S need to pray to itself??

By whose definition is tongues supernatural? There is absolutely nothing in the production of tongues that can’t be explained in very natural terms. The use of tongues however is another matter. Most cultures use tongues (glossolalia) as a tool; a means for the practitioner to connect to the divine usually on behalf of a ‘petitioner’. The glossolalia however is not the vehicle of the message, it’s just the means by which to establish and maintain the ‘connection’ to the divine. In this respect, it’s not much different than how chanting or even drumming is used in some cultures to do the same thing. Christianity uses glossolalia in slightly different “applications”, but in and of itself, it is nothing that is supernatural, or some ‘universal heavenly language’ (no two tongues are alike; each one is unique to the speaker).

The thing with tongues is that, unlike other faith traditions and concepts, it’s a very tangible thing; it is something concrete which can be (and has been) analyzed and studied. The results are all unanimously the same.

The only issues that come into question (for me anyway) are the ones I’ve asked about in the original post.

With respect to ‘tongues’ as they are found in the Bible, I may be repeating myself, in all cases the word refers to real language(s), not the modern Pentecostal/Charismatic practice.

 

[DebChris]

I wanted to respond to this.

It IS a different experience. It does not necessarily FEEL that way. You can pray in the spirit with your mind, but if your spirit is praying, your mind might follow along. You might pray with your mind and your spirit may follow. Since mind and spirit are in some kind of mysterious relationship, it is hard to go any farther than that. I can pray in tongues and nothing else seems to be different, whether in the mind or will or emotions. On the other hand I can sometimes pray in tongues and “stuff happens”, a phrase that is useless unless you know what I mean. My courage may kick on. My faith may rise. I may have a flash of insight or something, or prayer may be more effective. I may be more joyful. Would someone get healed if I had not prayed in tongues for them? We will never know. We will never know the opposite, either. And sometimes I pray in tongues and there does not seem to be anything different. Sometimes when I pray in English the prayers seem dull and dry and bounce off heaven’s gate. Often, though, when I have prayed in tongues and then pray in English the prayers seem much more alive.

I totally reject the idea that somehow the brain is in some kind of altered psychological state when one is praying in tongues. Maybe I have been praying in tongues so long I am permanently in that state, so there is no alteration.

If there are no angelic tongues, does that mean angels cannot communicate with each other? I don’t think so.

This touches on the idea of control that I mentioned earlier. If I am singing in the Spirit while walking, I can stop my prayer. I have been stopped mid-stride while praying the rosary when a person did not realize I was in the middle of prayer, and asked a question.
My response in both cases is the same. Was the encounter is past, I resume what where I was and continue. Yes, there is full awareness of surroundings.
A person can definitely switch from praying in prayers in his or her native language to tongues and back, or spend time in meditation.
There are posts on different threads regarding the Catholic Charismatic Renewal because meetings do not include the traditional devotions, and point to individuals who have left the Church. What is missed how the Holy Spirit working in a person’s life draws him or her into deeper prayer and love of the Eucharist, as well as to these traditional devotions. As I once read, a man prays the rosary because the Holy Spirit draws him to it.

I like the statement about angels communicating with each other. When his wife was sick, my youngest brother (now deceased as well) asked his guardian angel to watch over her. He told me about the guardian angels communicating with each other.

I can describe the panoramic view from the top of a mountain, or even show photos. Unless you have hiked in the mountains, and seen for your self it remains only an image. I cannot reproduce my own experience for somebody else.

 

[Smokey3]

The Catholic Charismatic movement recently had an anniversery and thus there was a TV report about it which I happened to see. People from the original event at the university (forget which one) where tongues occurred where interviewed. It was reported that someone spoke a very old French which was recognized by a professor who was present. I also heard a reference to someome speaking Arabic. I believe someone at the original event is still at the university.

Anyway, a group of people who are still around and are not out in the wilds somewhere, but in the U.S.

Not being RC I have no more information, just chanced upon the program, but I would think this event would be relatively easy to investigate.

FWIW

 

[DebChris]

The Catholic Charismatic movement recently had an anniversery and thus there was a TV report about it which I happened to see. People from the original event at the university (forget which one) where tongues occurred where interviewed. It was reported that someone spoke a very old French which was recognized by a professor who was present. I also heard a reference to someome speaking Arabic. I believe someone at the original event is still at the university.

Anyway, a group of people who are still around and are not out in the wilds somewhere, but in the U.S.

Not being RC I have no more information, just chanced upon the program, but I would think this event would be relatively easy to investigate.

FWIW

When I first became a member of the Charismatic Renewal, I was unfamiliar with the movement. I had driven 50 miles for a private Easter retreat during a crisis period in my life. I returned to that same retreat center on a weekly basis. It was the nearest place where there was a Charismatic prayer meeting.

The Charismatic Renewal is international. It is has been recognized as a legitimate movement by the Holy Spirit by every pope starting with Pope Paul VI.

When I lived in the Middle East, I belonged to Couples for Christ which is Charismatic in nature. It has an Urdu prayer group as well as an English Charismatic prayer group.
While not every parish has a prayer group. Many do, and they are not difficult to find. Anybody is welcome to “come and see.”

There are many times in my life when I have been going through something, or doing something that I have told I am over-analyzing the situation or problem. I am by no means a linguist or mathematician, but I can understand that same analytical mind. There must be a logical explanation. Believing that God works in my life, and accepting some mystery does not mean that I throw out all reason. Thomas demanded proof. Skepticism is only negative when it prevents a person from taking the next step. Test the hypothesis. Accept the invitation.

 

[grannymh]

nsc-chariscenter.org/

 

[Reuben_J]

To comment on a few posts in no particular order –

Angels are pure spirit, ‘light beings’ as some put it. Though there’s no reason to think that they do not communicate, I personally think it is a form of communication we can neither clearly comprehend nor duplicate. In any case, I highly doubt it’s with anything that resembles a human vocal tract.

Of course angels communicate. It is all over the Bible.

We don’t know how they speak or what language. But if they communicate, which they did, it seemed they were understood by the humans that they spoke to. For example, Gabriel and Mary.

I don’t think it’s any type of altered state either, though some people report that it’s similar to being engrossed in a good book; you’re aware of everything that’s going on around you,

Yup.

but in a way, you’re not really a part of it; you’re kind of in your own world (if you’ve ever been engrossed in a good book while in a room of people and the TV going, etc., you know what I mean).

I don’t know. You are very much a part of it when you speak in tongue. It is not a trance or you are not in control. Yo speak it and you decide whether to continue or stop.

A question for clarification – when you say the Holy Spirit prays through you – is the H/S ‘praying in general’, praying on your behalf….what?

Most Charismatics would refer to Rom 6:26 regarding this. The Holy Spirit helps you to pray in words you cannot understand, and it is probably the best prayer that you can make, it being from the Holy Spirit.

Either way, it sounds like the H/S is praying to God, but since the H/S is one of the three persons of the Trinity, why would the H/S need to pray to itself??

That doesn’t arise.

By whose definition is tongues supernatural? There is absolutely nothing in the production of tongues that can’t be explained in very natural terms. The use of tongues however is another matter. Most cultures use tongues (glossolalia) as a tool; a means for the practitioner to connect to the divine usually on behalf of a ‘petitioner’. The glossolalia however is not the vehicle of the message, it’s just the means by which to establish and maintain the ‘connection’ to the divine. In this respect, it’s not much different than how chanting or even drumming is used in some cultures to do the same thing. Christianity uses glossolalia in slightly different “applications”, but in and of itself, it is nothing that is supernatural, or some ‘universal heavenly language’ (no two tongues are alike; each one is unique to the speaker).

Most Charismatics that I have come across do not care very much about this and probably think it is silly to argue about it in this manner. What does it matter anyway? The only thing is to know that it is a gift of the Holy Spirit for the up-building of the body and for oneself, wherever applicable.

The thing with tongues is that, unlike other faith traditions and concepts, it’s a very tangible thing; it is something concrete which can be (and has been) analyzed and studied. The results are all unanimously the same.

It is tangible because one can exercise it and other people can hear it.

You cannot analyzed it btw unless if you have a gift of discernment of the Spirit.

The only issues that come into question (for me anyway) are the ones I’ve asked about in the original post.

With respect to ‘tongues’ as they are found in the Bible, I may be repeating myself, in all cases the word refers to real language(s), not the modern Pentecostal/Charismatic practice.

I just browsed your OP. Pentecostal Charismatics, except of the label, are very different from Catholic Charismatics.

I try to see your posts for their face value though you sound either someone who is really interested in this subject or you are just trolling it.

 

[Reuben_J]

The Catholic Charismatic movement recently had an anniversery and thus there was a TV report about it which I happened to see. People from the original event at the university (forget which one) where tongues occurred where interviewed. It was reported that someone spoke a very old French which was recognized by a professor who was present. I also heard a reference to someome speaking Arabic. I believe someone at the original event is still at the university.

Anyway, a group of people who are still around and are not out in the wilds somewhere, but in the U.S.

Not being RC I have no more information, just chanced upon the program, but I would think this event would be relatively easy to investigate.

FWIW

Hi. I think it was Duqense University in Ann Arbor, Michigan. And yes, the original people who were originally involved in the first Catholic Charismatic Renewal are still alive. I have lost contact with some of them but I am not surprised if some were not around anymore.

This year is the Golden Jubilee (fifty years anniversary) of the Renewal in the Catholic Church. There is a big do in Rome at Pentecost , next month (May) this year, to celebrate this. About five hundred thousand to one million people may come. And Pope Francis is personally involved in overseeing the celebration. So it will be an exciting time.

Much of the speaking in tongue is hearsay. I have not heard where one speaks in tongue and the other hears it in his/her own language. I don’t think that it is not happening, only that if it is, it is extremely rare. However, people do make a big deal out of it, especially those who are against the Renewal.

What is common is the praying and singing in tongue, which is pretty much to up-build oneself or to enhance one’s prayers.