Tongues

[Kevan]

The Mormons also claim glossalalia in their history.

I spoke with a missionary to Africa who told me he’d seen animists doing the same thing. When I asked what differences he had observed between the “tongues” in America and the ones he had seen in Africa, he thought for a moment and then answered “None at all.”

Sorry I can’t document any of this. The Mormon claim is well known. Take the anecdote for what it’s worth.

 

[mrS4ntA]

1 tim 2

1Tim 2:1 I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men:
1Tim 2:2 For kings, and for all that are in high station: that we may lead a quiet and a peaceable life in all piety and chastity.
1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour,
1Tim 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
1Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus:
1Tim 2:6 Who gave himself a redemption for all, a testimony in due times.
1Tim 2:7 Whereunto I am appointed a preacher and an apostle, (I say the truth, I lie not,) a doctor of the Gentiles in faith and truth.
1Tim 2:8 I will therefore that men pray in every place, lifting up pure hands, without anger and contention.
1Tim 2:9 In like manner women also in decent apparel: adorning themselves with modesty and sobriety, not with plaited hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly attire,
1Tim 2:10 But as it becometh women professing godliness, with good works.
1Tim 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence, with all subjection.
1Tim 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to use authority over the man: but to be in silence.
1Tim 2:13 For Adam was first formed; then Eve.
1Tim 2:14 And Adam was not seduced; but the woman being seduced, was in the transgression.
1Tim 2:15 Yet she shall be saved through childbearing; if she continue in faith, and love, and sanctification, with sobriety.

So…? I see nothing resembling any one of your claims whatsoever…

 

[kpnuts2k]

mrS4ntA:

So…? I see nothing resembling any one of your claims whatsoever…

*1Tim 2:8 I will therefore that men pray in every place, lifting up pure hands, without anger and contention. *

lifting up pure hands

 

[larryo]

SPOKENWORD:

It doesnt. In john 6 ;63 Jesus says, It is the spirit that gives life,the flesh is useless. The Words I have spoken to you are SPIRIT AND LIFE.

This is proof-texting. Go back and read the entire Chapter 6 of John’s Gospel. Verse 63 occurs after Jesus’s teaching on the Eucharist which ended with verse 58. In verse 63, Jesus is contrasting the natural or carnal man (“the flesh”) with the spiritual or faith-filled man. Read 1 Corinthians 2:14-3:4 for a good explanation of what Jesus means by “the flesh.” Note that Jesus uses the term “my flesh” when discussing the Eucharist but uses “the flesh” when referring to the carnal man who will not believe anything beyond his senses and reason. If you also read the early Church fathers, you will see that they universally taught that the Eucharist is the body and blood of Our Lord.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

larryo:

This is proof-texting. Go back and read the entire Chapter 6 of John’s Gospel. Verse 63 occurs after Jesus’s teaching on the Eucharist which ended with verse 58. In verse 63, Jesus is contrasting the natural or carnal man (“the flesh”) with the spiritual or faith-filled man. Read 1 Corinthians 2:14-3:4 for a good explanation of what Jesus means by “the flesh.” Note that Jesus uses the term “my flesh” when discussing the Eucharist but uses “the flesh” when referring to the carnal man who will not believe anything beyond his senses and reason. If you also read the early Church fathers, you will see that they universally taught that the Eucharist is the body and blood of Our Lord.

LARRYO, Im sorry but Im going to disagree with you. Read vs 60, After hearing his words many disciples remarked. This sort of talk is hard to endure… How can anyone take it seriously. Yes this is proof reading and the proof is in Gods Word. In 1corinth ch 2, Jesus gives us true wisdom. Spiritual wisdom which the carnal man cannot recognize. As true christians God equips us with this gift Are we walking in the Spirit. If we are we then know what the Lord is speaking about. Not a spirit of confusion.

 

[mrS4ntA]

*1Tim 2:8 I will therefore that men pray in every place, lifting up pure hands, without anger and contention. *

lifting up pure hands

Which means that when you worship (i.e. partake in the “breaking of the bread”) do so “worthily” – without any conflicts with your neighbors etc etc.

The Catholic understanding is that you have to rid yourselves of mortal sins (going to Confession) before receiving the Eucharist…

Am I in error here (this is directed to fellow Cath)?

 

[Little_Mary]

SPOKENWORD:

It doesnt. In john 6 ;63 Jesus says, It is the spirit that gives life,the flesh is useless. The Words I have spoken to you are SPIRIT AND LIFE.

You’ll notice Jesus says the flesh here. When he speaks of what we now know as the Eucharist, he refers to my flesh. Be sure and read the entire passage in context.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Little Mary:

You’ll notice Jesus says the flesh here. When he speaks of what we now know as the Eucharist, he refers to my flesh. Be sure and read the entire passage in context.

Yes ,Mary He is talking about our flesh being useless. It is the SPIRIT that brings LIFE.

 

[Apologia100]

Montanism, is that the Diocese of Helena, Montana?

 

[robertaf]

Good Morning Church

HAHAHAHA! Very good one and you couldn’t have chosen a more beautiful Diocese. I use to always have Helena on my flight schedule (more turbulence over there than anyplace I ever flew.)
Lovely Church. smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_1_102.gif

 

[Peace-bwu]

Scripture states that the Holy Spirit brings gifts to all people. Some Catholics are gifted with speaking in tongues. My mother is a devout Cradle Catholic who became attracted to the Charasmatic movement because she was speaking in tongues at a Catholic prayer group. She wanted to understand what this meant in her life, the really amazing thing is that last year she was watching a show on EWTN and they said a phrase in Ancient Hebrew which she reconginzed immediately as what she was saying over in over while speaking in tongues! She isn’t here so I can’t repeat what she said, but it meant “You are my bride.” in English.

This was an incredibly precious gift to her, especially when she realized what it meant. To her it meant that the Church is the bride of Christ and as part of the Catholic church, the body of Christ, we are like brides as well. She took it as Jesus telling her that he was pleased with her devotional life. This is just a way that the Holy Spirit worked through her.
I love raising my hands in worship, but have never done that at the Mass, only at prayer groups, or retreats... though I would not be offended if someone did, as long as it was at an appropriate moment, and respectful to the solemnity of the Mass, and did not break any liturgical laws.

 

[Peace-bwu]

Spokenword , for cryin’ out loud! LOL read the whole

thing! If you only read bits and pieces you will take it out of context! You are doing it again! Let me quote it again to make it easier for you. OK, so after verse 60: what you aren’ t catching is that Jesus is not referring to HIS spirit and body, but *the *spirit and body of mankind. Otherwise he would say: MY spirit, not, " It is *the *spirit that giveth life." what he meant is that our bodies will pass away, it is *our *spirit that gives us life and lives on. When Jesus says “The words I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.” What words is he talking about??? HE is referring to the words the disciples are having such trouble accepting. Many of them went away and stopped following him because he said repeatedly that unless you EAT the Body of the Son of Man and Drink his blood you shall not have life within you! As Scott Hahn pointed out in a book I read about this subject, when so many people stopped following Jesus he could have said “Hey wait up guys, don’t leave I was just using figurative language here, I didn’t mean to actually eat my flesh and blood!” Come back! What kind of Savior would let them leave because they misunderstood him? Not Jesus! The only ones who stayed were the ones who knew Jesus had the words of eternal life, so they accepted the directions of Christ,even though they didn’t yet understand, the trusted what Jesus said to be true! A short time later, Jesus would show them how to do this sacramentally. In the Passover Meal, (Ok, I am taking this from Scott Hahn again, this is not a quote, though) Jews had to eat the Lamb and drink the wine, they couldn’t eat a cookie shaped like a lamb, that wouldn’t work! Jesus becomes the passover lamb of God. When we eat the host, it may taste like a wafer of bread, but Jesus is wholly present, body, blood, soul and divinity, and he gives himself to us so that we may have eternal life. REREAD JOHN, you will get it one of these days, I admire your perseverance. Keep questioning, you are learning much, grasshopper. Put aside your prejudices and let yourself learn something, listen to the Word of God along with the Sacred Tradition the Bible came out of, it really will help you understand and put it into context, we aren’t trying to “trick” you, I spent time writing this out of Christian Love!

Peace Be With You.

 

[Peace-bwu]

mrS4ntA:

where in the Bible does it say THIS?
Jesus said, “This IS my body… This IS my blood”! and when people left him saying that “this is a hard saying”, he didn’t elaborate as to explain he was talking figuratively!

Exactly! I find it quite disturbing when I hear a so-called Bible only person ADD a Man-Made word to the direct Word of Jesus Christ. It is blasphemous to add “represents” to the word of God. They take it out of context and explain it away to fit their Man Made theology instead of taking Jesus at His word.

Of course, Jesus said “do this in memory of Me” or “remembrance” he is commanding us to **do exactly what he showed the disciples to do, consecrate the Eucharist so that we can eat his body and drink his blood! **The priest, through the Holy Spirit, does exactly this at every Mass.
Notice the Words of Christ “This is my body, **do this in memory of me”

He did NOT say "This bread, here, represents my body gather around and eat bread and drink grape juice and remember me… Tell everybody I was just kidding, all those people who stopped followin’ me, tell ‘em they don’t have to believe what I said because I’m such a prankster! I was just tryin’ to be deep. All ya have to do is read my Word in a book that will be compiled from written and unwritten Tradition in a few hundred years, and pray, that will be enough. Sure, if King James wants to take a few books out in about 15,000 years and change some of the words that’s Ok, When I said “Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood you shall not have life within you” I was just pullin’ yer leg! And… you don’t have to do *any *of this, just decide for yourselves what *you *believe, when I told my disciples to go out and teach, what I really meant was make sure somebody writes all this down so they can read it and decide how much of what I taught they really want to do. Oh and, could you please disrespect my mother for me? There is no way I would listen to a prayer from *that *woman. And Peter, I was only kiddng when I named you “the rock” on which I would build my church. You are all saved you don’t actually need to follow everything I said!

Oh my, that was painful! but it illustrates how I feel when I hear people treat the Bible like its a salad bar and they can take what they want and leave the rest. Let Christ speak and stop adding words like “represents”!

 

[Makerteacher]

agname:

The Charismatic Movement is just Montanism revisited…

Sigh. Here we go again.

Approx. 170AD - The Montanists were a kind of early charismatic revival featuring gifts of the Spirit including prophecy, but they (as in Toronto and other places) went too far into ecstatic trances, direct revelations from angels and God, and apocalyptic heresies. They believed they were living in the days of the latter rain, when the Holy Spirit would be poured out upon the church and the world, their own group being the first manifestation of the outpouring. In fact their leader, Montanus, actually believed he was the Holy Spirit Incarnate.

As for the charge of Charismaticism being “Montanism revisited”, that really is a seriously flawed accusation. Montanists were ascetic hermits who rejected the authority of the Church in favor of a “special divine revelation” they claimed they received personally. They did not speak as in prophecies “The Lord says to you…” but as though they themselves were God “I say to you…” They also rejected the trinity. We do none of that. They were anti-intellectuals: we have many fine intellectuals and theologians in our movement. **Furthermore, the Montanist heresy was a HERESY, whereas the Charismatic Renewal has the blessings and support of the Holy See. **

We are unlike Montanists in many ways. No one in this movement claims to be the Holy Spirit incarnated. We teach NO new doctrines and in fact tend to be some of the most conservative of Catholics, always concerned with staying in obedience to our local Bishops and to Rome. We are not ascetics, we do not believe we have “superior knowledge”, we fully submit to the Holy See, and we are not anti-intellectuals at ALL. (Fr. Paul Hinnebusch was a member of our community: I challenge you to find anything the least bit unorthodox or anti-intellectual about that holy man, now deceased.) frpaulhinnebusch.org/

For a link to the Catholic Charismatic Confraternity of Covenant Communities, go here: www.catholicfraternity.net

For a link to my community, The Christian Community of God’s delight in Dallas, TX, go to www.lumen2000.com

 

[Makerteacher]

Vitus:

And I do not claim that miraculous occurences could not have happened. But the CURRENT teachings in the Charismatic movement are just not supported. And highly emotional and dedicated people will have highly emotional responses.

Oddly enough , Vitus, the Pope disagrees with you. First of all, the “current teachings” of the Charismatic Renewal in the Catholic Church are NOT NEW; we teach no new doctrines whatsoever. So if you think those teachings are “not supported”, then I’m afraid you are saying Catholic doctrine through the centuries is “not supported.” I am sure that you do not really feel that way, based on your other posts in opther threads.

Secondly, and I do not mean to sound snide here, but given the choice between agreeing with a regular Joe Catholic like you or me, and agreeing with the Pope, I’m going with the Pope, who not only approves of the Charismatic Renewal, but gives it His full blessings and support.

*Although some priests are uncomfortable with charismatic renewal, the Catholic hierarchy is quite supportive. In 1969, just two years after charismatic revival hit the Catholic Church, the Theological Committee of American Bishops issued a statement saying that the charismatic “movement has a sound scriptural foundation” and that “the effect on the participants is good.”

The pope is very, very supportive of the charismatic renewal movement. On May 30, 1998, the eve of Pentecost Sunday, the pope invited all renewal movements in the church to meet with him in St. Peter’s Square. A record-breaking crowd of 500,000 showed up. In his speech, the pope made a number of statements in support of the charismatic movement. According to L’Osservatore Romano, the pope’s words at that historic gathering included the following: “Whenever the Spirit intervenes, He leaves people astonished. He brings about events of amazing newness.”

“Today the church rejoices at the renewed confirmation of the prophet Joel’s words, which we have just heard, ‘ “I will pour out My Spirit upon all flesh”’ (Acts 2:17).”

“Today I would like to cry out to all of you gathered in St. Peter’s Square…Open yourselves docilely to the gifts of the Spirit! Accept gratefully and obediently the charisms which the Spirit never ceases to bestow on us!”*

I completely understand that this particular lay apostolate is NOT for everyone: It’s OK if it is not for you!

Vitus:

I’m kind of confused, and please don’t think I’m being sarcastic. Was not your claim that the gifts were there throughout the centuries (although your dates start in the 1100s). Why woud their be a need for a New Pentecost then? And what purpose exactly would a New Pentecost serve?

Fair enough. The gifts have existed throughout the history of Christianity, but have not been widely used or applied during that time. Why the need for more of these gifts? My response would be, look around. All I have to do is drive to the grocery store and back to see the need for MORE of God in our daily lives and in the hearts and actions of every person. The world is in a pretty sorry state and the Church has fewer and fewer adherents every day in most parts of the world (there are exceptions.) Faith was once the CORE of most of western civilization’s daily lives. That is no longer true. The Holy Spirit can and does provide us with the grace to grow closer to God, and with His help we can change the world!

Don’t know about you, but I can always use renewal spiritually.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Peace-bwu:

Spokenword , for cryin’ out loud! LOL read the whole thing! If you only read bits and pieces you will take it out of context! You are doing it again! Let me quote it again to make it easier for you. OK, so after verse 60: what you aren’ t catching is that Jesus is not referring to HIS spirit and body, but *the *spirit and body of mankind. Otherwise he would say: MY spirit, not, " It is *the *spirit that giveth life." what he meant is that our bodies will pass away, it is *our *spirit that gives us life and lives on. When Jesus says “The words I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.” What words is he talking about??? HE is referring to the words the disciples are having such trouble accepting. Many of them went away and stopped following him because he said repeatedly that unless you EAT the Body of the Son of Man and Drink his blood you shall not have life within you! As Scott Hahn pointed out in a book I read about this subject, when so many people stopped following Jesus he could have said “Hey wait up guys, don’t leave I was just using figurative language here, I didn’t mean to actually eat my flesh and blood!” Come back! What kind of Savior would let them leave because they misunderstood him? Not Jesus! The only ones who stayed were the ones who knew Jesus had the words of eternal life, so they accepted the directions of Christ,even though they didn’t yet understand, the trusted what Jesus said to be true! A short time later, Jesus would show them how to do this sacramentally. In the Passover Meal, (Ok, I am taking this from Scott Hahn again, this is not a quote, though) Jews had to eat the Lamb and drink the wine, they couldn’t eat a cookie shaped like a lamb, that wouldn’t work! Jesus becomes the passover lamb of God. When we eat the host, it may taste like a wafer of bread, but Jesus is wholly present, body, blood, soul and divinity, and he gives himself to us so that we may have eternal life. REREAD JOHN, you will get it one of these days, I admire your perseverance. Keep questioning, you are learning much, grasshopper. Put aside your prejudices and let yourself learn something, listen to the Word of God along with the Sacred Tradition the Bible came out of, it really will help you understand and put it into context, we aren’t trying to “trick” you, I spent time writing this out of Christian Love!

Peace Be With You.

Peace, I really apreciate the work of love you are putting in trying to convince me what someones interpretation is. Im really only trusting the Holy Spirit to show me the Truth. What Jesus is refering to are the Words He just finished speaking with his apostles. He speaks to them in the natural and they cannot understand them. The Words I have spoken to you are SPIRIT AND LIFE. Jesus is talking about his Body and His Blood. I have no idea where you come up with that it is the apostles spirit.

 

[Peace-bwu]

SPOKENWORD:

Peace, I really apreciate the work of love you are putting in trying to convince me what someones interpretation is. Im really only trusting the Holy Spirit to show me the Truth. What Jesus is refering to are the Words He just finished speaking with his apostles. He speaks to them in the natural and they cannot understand them. The Words I have spoken to you are SPIRIT AND LIFE. Jesus is talking about his Body and His Blood. I have no idea where you come up with that it is the apostles spirit.

Huh? Where was I talking about the apostles’ spirit?

Oh Ok, I caught what you are saying , I have time to edit.

You quoted John 60 “it is the spirit that giveth life, the flesh is useless” Jesus was not talking about himself or he would have said "it is MY spirit that … He is not talking about His presence in the Eucharist here, but is talking about mankind in general… that their bodies will pass away and their spirits are what will live on. Jesus is not saying that HIS flesh is useless (Many people use this passage to argue against the True Presence in the Eucharist,) If he were referring to Himself he would have said “MY Spirit gives life” not THE spirt.

To be honest, I think the Holy Spirit is trying to give you the truth… right here. I follow the Holy Spriit too. The Scripture supporting the True Presence in the Eucharist is very strong. You may be surprised someday to find where the Holy Sprit leads you, I have been
Peace Be With You.

 

[asquared]

as usual, come to a thread on a specific topic and be prepared to wander in the wilderness. There are several other threads on tongues, charismatic renewl etc. that have recently discussed this topic to death. You would save yourself a lot of time if you would use the search feature to look at past threads before posting your question. There are also lots of threads on the Real Presence, which belong in Sacraments and Liturgy, not in this forum. Please stick to the topic, or post a new thread in the proper forum.