Tongues?

[ronin67]

First, for me to question if a person is actually speaking in tongues is not for me to decide (I will not question the Holy Spirit). However, knowing a bit about the pentecostal church, it seems almost a right of passage to have to speak in tongues to be accepted. So when they claim they speak in tongues, if they aren’t and claim they are, they will have to answer to the Father (not for me to judge). I worked with a very nice gentleman who pretty much could turn talking in tongues ON/OFF as he pleased (or so he said). I accedit him as being one of my big influences leading me back to Christ Jesus. If it is God’s will for me to speak in tongues one day, that will be great. If not, I still LOVE my Father and my savior Christ Jesus and will continue to do my best to serve in the Father’s name through Christ Jesus my savior.

Take Care and May God Bless!

Ed

 

[guanophore]

First, for me to question if a person is actually speaking in tongues is not for me to decide (I will not question the Holy Spirit).

It is our duty to discern the spirits, and Scripture is clear that not all phenomenon that occur come from the HS.

However, knowing a bit about the pentecostal church, it seems almost a right of passage to have to speak in tongues to be accepted. So when they claim they speak in tongues, if they aren’t and claim they are, they will have to answer to the Father (not for me to judge).

Yes, this is a gross abuse of the gift, and is not part of the Apostolic Teaching. It is a shame, since it has turned many against the gifts of the HS, which are part of the spiritual treasure of the church.

I worked with a very nice gentleman who pretty much could turn talking in tongues ON/OFF as he pleased (or so he said). I accedit him as being one of my big influences leading me back to Christ Jesus.

To this extent, it is like any other kind of prayer. It is not different than being able to pray The Lord’s Prayer “off/on”.

It does not pray itself without the decision and contribution of the person. A person must add their intentions, thoughts, and speech. Well, I will qualify that by excluding dreams. I have often prayed in tongues, the Mass, and the Liturgy of the Hours in my dreams, and this is beyond the consious decision of the dreamer.

If it is God’s will for me to speak in tongues one day, that will be great. If not, I still LOVE my Father and my savior Christ Jesus and will continue to do my best to serve in the Father’s name through Christ Jesus my savior.

This is a great attitude!

 

[sauce]

actually Benidict, the bible speaks of at least three different kinds of tonuges. The first is the one that you are mentioning: the tongues used by the apostles on the day of pentecost. That was a language that other people could understand (the scripture says that the people heard the apostles speaking in their own languages).

the second form of tongues is what is called “praying” in tongues (as opposed to speaking in tongues). You will understand this distinction in Paul’s teaching on the gift from 1 Cor 12-14. He says, that those with the gift of tongues speak not to human beings but to God, and no one understands them because they are uttering mysteries in the Spirit. (1 Cor 14:2).

I am not sure if I need mention any other scriptures about this gift on tongues, because it may just be that people have already made up thier minds to not beleive in it. That is too bad!

Flame of Christ, you should keep going on You Tube. Went to your postings there. They are quite good and solid teaching. Great that you put the time and energy into serving Jesus on the internet. I’m sure there is more inside of you bubbling up to share. Your posts actually took a person through what they needed to know to get to the baptism in the Spirit and tongues. What if this were the only contact a person has resource to?
You are doing a good work. Jesus has more for you to do. I hear “clarity” in your voice.
The psalmist says “prosper the works of our hands, oh God; prosper the works of our hands.”

 

[rtconstant]

actually Benidict, the bible speaks of at least three different kinds of tonuges. The first is the one that you are mentioning: the tongues used by the apostles on the day of pentecost. That was a language that other people could understand (the scripture says that the people heard the apostles speaking in their own languages).

Well the Bible has verses that can be interpreted to say there are different gifts of tongues. However, when we look at the Bible through the lens of Tradition and look at what the ECF’s say on the subject (at least from what I’ve read) they seem to all view the gift as exclusively being used to speak an existing foreign language. And its purpose was the edification, encouragement and evangelization of others. This is evidenced by by St. John Crysostom in his Homilies on 1 Corinthians, and Augustine in his Homilies on first Epistle of John.

the second form of tongues is what is called “praying” in tongues (as opposed to speaking in tongues). You will understand this distinction in Paul’s teaching on the gift from 1 Cor 12-14. He says, that those with the gift of tongues speak not to human beings but to God, and no one understands them because they are uttering mysteries in the Spirit. (1 Cor 14:2).

Yet Chrysostom has this to say:

Having spoken so much of tongues, that the gift is a thing
unprofitable, a thing superfluous, if it have no interpreter." - John Chrysostom, Homilies on 1 Corinthians 36.5

Further while its true that the Fathers acknowledge that the gift of tongues can occur in private devotional use they seem to think it not a good thing unless it is understood. They also seem to assume that it is still a real human language.

Ask accordingly not to have the gift of tongues only, but also of interpretation, that thou
mayest become useful unto all, and not shut up thy gift in thyself alone. “For if I pray in
a tongue,” saith he, “my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.” Seest thou
how by degrees bringing his argument to a point, he signifies that not to others only is
such an one useless, but also to himself; if at least “his understanding is unfruitful?” For
if a man should speak only in the Persian, or any other foreign tongue, and not
understand what he saith, then of course to himself also will he be thenceforth a
barbarian, not to another only, from not knowing the meaning of the sound. For there
were of old many who had also a gift of prayer, together with a tongue; and they prayed,
and the tongue spake, praying either in the Persian or Latin language, but their
understanding knew not what was spoken. Wherefore also he said, “I’ll pray in a tongue,
my spirit prayeth,” i.e., the gift which is given me and which moves my tongue, “but my
understanding is unfruitful.”

What then may that be which is best in itself, and doth good? And how ought one
to act, or what request of God? To pray, “both with the spirit,” i.e., the gift, and “with
the understanding.” Wherefore also he said, “I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray
with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the
understanding also.” He signifieth the same thing here also, that both the tongue may
speak, and the understanding may not be ignorant of the things spoken. - Chrysostom, Homilies on First Corinthians 35.5-6

I am not sure if I need mention any other scriptures about this gift on tongues, because it may just be that people have already made up thier minds to not beleive in it. That is too bad!

I don’t see why anyone would “just be against it”. I’m not. I just see no reason to think that unknown tongues have anything to do with the Spirit. When I look at the Church throughout history I see no evidence of the pentecostal view of tongues. I also see no way to separate the Catholic phenomenon from the Pentecostal one.

 

[Flame_of_Christ]

Dear sauce,

Thank you so much for your words of encouragement! Good thing you didn’t type to me in tongues because then I might not understand you! hehe

I am working on doing more talks as the Lord seems to have opened this door of ministry for me to work in. Praise our Lord Jesus Christ!

Please pray for me!

Dear rtconstant,

It really can be difficult to explain what we have experienced, “what our hands have touched and our ears have heard.” Of course it is profitable for us to explain to others just what the gift of tongues is, the gift that we have received. That would be a blessing to you if we could do that for you. If you are scripturally minded, I would try here to show that as you seemed to say, the gift of tongues can be a personal devotional practice between a person and God.

St. John Chrysostom seems to be only saying wht Paul is saying partially. I think that his opinion of tongues may have some bias, as he seems to indicate that he does not have this gift. But St. Paul did, so he is more knowledgable about it. Of course one will know more if they have direct experience.

So yes, when I speak in tongues, it is unprofiable to others if my tongues do not give them a clear message. Yet, St. Paul acknowledges that this gift is not only for the use of others (to build them up) but to also build the individual up.

“He who prays in a tongues, edifies himself” 1 Cor 14:4

Paul is concerned with building up the Body of Christ in ministry. He does point out that tongues can be used for others and for oneself. Just as the typical confirmation gifts build oneself up and the charismatic gifts build up others. Of course they are both important.

St. Paul makes it clear that the gift has some effect even without an interpreter:

“A person who prays in tongues does not speak to men but speaks to God, no one understands him, for he utters mysteries in the Spirit.”

This says several things:

1. other people cannot understand this gift
2. the person is speaking to God
3. he is uttering mysteries through the Holy Spirit

This is exactly what we believe the gift of tongues to be. Of course it is beneficial to speak to God in tongues!

Now St. Paul does say that “if there is no one to interpret, then a person should remain silent and speak only to God.” 1 Cor 14:28

Of course this solidifies the thought that a person should use this prayer language to pray to the Lord. They can still speak to God with this gift.

“He who prays in a tongues, edifies himself” 1 Cor 14:4

So we know by this scripture (and by our own experience of praying in the Spirit) that we truly are made strong when we pray in tongues. I pray that you open yourself up to this gift brother, it will strengthen you more in Christ.

Maybe what you are asking is if we should speak our prayers aloud in the presence of others. We say yes, because in this case we are not using the gift of tongues to speak a message to others, we are only praying aloud to the Father, through Jesus in the power of the Holy Spirit. Paul’s issue was that during the prayer service people would speak out a message in tongues and no one would interpret it. This is problematic because that kind of tongues is meant to be a message to others. For it to be profitable for them, there needs to be an interpretation.

See how there are two kinds of tongues here, one for praying to God and one for giving a message to others. Paul values building up the church more than building oneself up, but he does acknowledge that we ourselves are built up when we pray personally to God in tongues.

I think that you understand what I am saying to some degree.

there is more to say, but I will wait for your response.

the peace of Jesus be with you