Too many Sympathetic for SSPX

[mattkubes]

What does bashing FE and accusing fellow Catholics of sounding like heretics have to do with this thread? Grow up.

 

[TimothyH]

What does bashing FE and accusing fellow Catholics of sounding like heretics have to do with this thread? Grow up.

I wasn’t aware I did either.

When I’m ready to bash websites and call people heretics, you’ll know it. There will be no ambiguity. I promise.

-Tim-

 

[JReducation]

My mother’s brother was like that. He was wounded at D-Day and rarely spoke of his time in the army in WW2. My dad would say when he did speak of it, this VERY large uncle of mine would cry like a baby.
That’s why I get upset with neo-con “conservatives” who want bomb and go war everywhere. Unless they have been in a real war, they have no clue what they are talking about.
Back to the topic, quite frankly if Williamson has these opinions, and his articles appear to be in Sede territory, I doubt very much he will agree to reconcile with Rome. Some of the comments from his supporters on sites like Fisheaters come off sounding more like Protestant fundamentalists than Catholic.
But even they (the fundies) aren’t anti-semitic.

Some of the comments could pass for standard fundamentalist rhetoric with a few name changes.

I find it supremely ironic.

-Tim-

I was thinking about that myself and wondering if some of the folks who are so aggressive are former Protestants. I know that Protestant communities get into really hot conflicts and then split. That’s how you get the First Baptist Church of Anytown, the Second Baptist Church of Anytown and so forth. Some folks are saying that if Bishop W splits, they’ll follow. But that doesn’t make much sense, because that’s going into schism. I don’t get why they would think that way, instead of looking for another solution.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[pnewton]

The remark on the gas chambers is pretty silly considering the evidence.
Williamson believes in the Protocols?!?
That’s scary.

I do not know if he believes them, but there is evidence that he might. That is why I said that his position on them needs to be understood by the Holy Father if he is ever to be restored to Catholic ministry. He may not be antisemetic, but with so many indicators that he might be, I can understand why the Holy Father would want to proceed separately and carefully with him.

 

[JReducation]

I do not know if he believes them, but there is evidence that he might. That is why I said that his position on them needs to be understood by the Holy Father if he is ever to be restored to Catholic ministry. He may not be antisemetic, but with so many indicators that he might be, I can understand why the Holy Father would want to proceed separately and carefully with him.

I think what concerns the hierarchy more than anything else is his uncanny ability to embarrass the Church. He made that unfortunate statement about the Shoah, he also made some silly statement about the protocol and then his comments on 9-11.

If a bishop says, “Jesus had 10 brothers and sisters,” that would upset Catholics, but it would be an internal matter. The news wouldn’t even look in that direction. If it did, it would be short lived attention. The Vatican can deal with it without having to explain it to anyone.

When a bishop says something about 9-11 or the Shoah, this affects more people including Catholics who lived through this and lost loved ones. These are subjects that reopen many wounds.

We must learn to be gentle in what we say and leave some things alone.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[numealinesimpet]

Yes, he did deny it. His figure reduced the Holocaust by 95%, or, he denied 95 % of it.

That’s not denying that Jews were murdered. It is denying the figure so often quoted. But where is the list of 6,000,000 names to substantiate it, for example?

When one of his stature has beliefs based on Nazi sympathizers who write revisionsist histories,

Well, I wonder sometimes who is doing the revising. The figures quoted by Bp Williamson can be found as pdf file of official German records and seem to be genuine.

then the Holy Father has reason to be concerned. Also, his position on the Protocols of Zion also needs to be understood. That is clearly antisemetic.

The Pope who first obtained this document had it reprinted at his own expense, to warn the rest of the world. I don’t personally know whether they are genuine. But it is clear that the pope did. If that is being anti-Semitic, then so be it. But to repeat, Bp Williamson was very unwise to let himself be associated with the whole “Holocaust” issue.

 

[TimothyH]

I was thinking about that myself and wondering if some of the folks who are so aggressive are former Protestants. I know that Protestant communities get into really hot conflicts and then split. That’s how you get the First Baptist Church of Anytown, the Second Baptist Church of Anytown and so forth. Some folks are saying that if Bishop W splits, they’ll follow. But that doesn’t make much sense, because that’s going into schism. I don’t get why they would think that way, instead of looking for another solution.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

The similarities are striking.

The idea of revival is very common - the belief that the Church is in a constant state of crisis and must be restored to its former glory. Often the belief is that lukewarmness can only be overcome by radical divine intervention.

There is also the idea of a worship experience which I find strikingly similar - the quest for the perfect altar call, the perfect sermon to drive people into a frenzy, the perfect candlight prayer service, or the perfect Mass with just the right amount of incense, just the right chant, and the sublimely executed act of consecration.

I see Jesus-and-me Christianity in some Catholic agruments. A fundamentalists would say “There is nothing more important than my personal relationship with Christ” while a Catholic might say something like, “It’s not about the horizontal but the vertical”

The idea that the true Chuch can only be a remnant Church is also a common theme.

I read some of this stuff and it sounds exactly like my Evangelical friends, only we use fancier words.

-Tim-

 

[numealinesimpet]

The following very brief announcement appeared on Rorate Caeli -

Rome-SSPX: CDF report officially delivered to the Pope
In the course of the usual Friday afternoon meeting between the Holy Father and the Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (CDF), Cardinal Levada delivered officially today to the Pope the report of the Congregation’s Wednesday meeting on the aftermath of the doctrinal discussions between the Society of Saint Pius X (SSPX) and the Holy See.
Swiss religious news agency APIC confirms the official delivery by Cardinal Levada (in French/ in German), but no real new development is added, other than the confirmation that “the pope can now directly decide the outcome of the discussions with the Lefebvrists or can wait for ‘new developments’ on the doctrinal questions wished by the members of the CDF.”

http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2012/05/rome-sspx-cdf-report-officially.html

I can’t read French or German…

 

[JReducation]

The similarities are striking.

The idea of revival is very common - the belief that the Church is in a constant state of crisis and must be restored to its former glory. Often the belief is that lukewarmness can only be overcome by radical divine intervention.

There is also the idea of a worship experience which I find strikingly similar - the quest for the perfect altar call, the perfect sermon to drive people into a frenzy, the perfect candlight prayer service, or the perfect Mass with just the right amount of incense, just the right chant, and the sublimely executed act of consecration.

I see Jesus-and-me Christianity in some Catholic agruments. A fundamentalists would say “There is nothing more important than my personal relationship with Christ” while a Catholic might say something like, “It’s not about the horizontal but the vertical”

The idea that the true Chuch can only be a remnant Church is also a common theme.

I read some of this stuff and it sounds exactly like my Evangelical friends, only we use fancier words.

-Tim-

One has to be very careful, because one can use fancy words very incorrectly. Take for example “collegiality” I have seen it used incorrectly by the far left and the far right. I was reading something the other day about collegiality, written by a Trad. I thought to myself, “That’s not what collegiality means.” But about a year ago, I read something written by Catholics for Choice or some such name and they too used the term “collegiality” and then I also found myself saying, “That’s not what the term means.”

Tonight, I was reading something else. The poster said, “I’d expect a true religion to raise man’s standard of living to the point where he could lead a decent life when compared to the waring apostates and the divorcing and shagging pagans. Not as rich as the Jews, but not as poor and certainly not as corrupt as the Muslims.” It was a hair’s width short of the “Gospel of Success”, which is a very Protestant idea. I imagine that the person never thought of it that way or he would not have said it. He probably never thought that this was a Protestant notion.

People really need to very careful how they speak, because they can certainly sound like Protestants and trigger apprehension instead of inspiring trust in the hearts of mainstream Catholics. A calm response to situations does much to get others to pay attention and to feel safe.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[TimothyH]

I said, "I will watch my ways,
lest I sin with my tongue;
I will put a curb on my mouth."
(Psalm 39)

I wish I could do this more. Good night Brother.

-Tim-

 

[numealinesimpet]

Here is a video clip of Bp Fellay talking about the current situation between the SSPX & Rome that is REALLY worth watching -

papastronsay.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/bishop-fellay-speaks.html

NB the Transalpine Redemptorists, based at Papa Stronsay, Orkney Islands, adopted the Traditional liturgy and the original Rule of S. Alphonsus. When Summórum Pontíficum was published they applied for regularising under the terms of the Pope’s document. They are not affiliated to the SSPX.

 

[pnewton]

When a bishop says something about 9-11 or the Shoah, this affects more people including Catholics who lived through this and lost loved ones. These are subjects that reopen many wounds.

I fear you are right. If an Archbishop takes a stance of denying the Holocaust or some other antisemetic idea, he not only colors the Church with this, he also tends to attract others of his ilk. I still can’t believe this is being argued today, but like I said in another thread, we are not as civilized as we think we have become. The idea that antisemetism is dead and such a thing could not happen again is dangerously naive.

 

[fakename]

One has to be very careful, because one can use fancy words very incorrectly. Take for example “collegiality” I have seen it used incorrectly by the far left and the far right. I was reading something the other day about collegiality, written by a Trad. I thought to myself, “That’s not what collegiality means.” But about a year ago, I read something written by Catholics for Choice or some such name and they too used the term “collegiality” and then I also found myself saying, “That’s not what the term means.”

Tonight, I was reading something else. The poster said, “I’d expect a true religion to raise man’s standard of living to the point where he could lead a decent life when compared to the waring apostates and the divorcing and shagging pagans. Not as rich as the Jews, but not as poor and certainly not as corrupt as the Muslims.” It was a hair’s width short of the “Gospel of Success”, which is a very Protestant idea. I imagine that the person never thought of it that way or he would not have said it. He probably never thought that this was a Protestant notion.

People really need to very careful how they speak, because they can certainly sound like Protestants and trigger apprehension instead of inspiring trust in the hearts of mainstream Catholics. A calm response to situations does much to get others to pay attention and to feel safe.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

OK, I’ve tried to PM you but I can’t find a way to do so.

I think I’ve finally settled my earlier question RE: the pope and his authority. His authority is so broad because it is practical for the good of the Church in the sense that it keeps order and peace. Is this correct?

 

[JReducation]

I fear you are right. If an Archbishop takes a stance of denying the Holocaust or some other antisemetic idea, he not only colors the Church with this, he also tends to attract others of his ilk. I still can’t believe this is being argued today, but like I said in another thread, we are not as civilized as we think we have become. The idea that antisemetism is dead and such a thing could not happen again is dangerously naive.

This is of special concern to me, because I’m a Hebrew Catholic and because my ministry is in the pro-life movement. Rather than try to play with the numbers of how many were actually killed and by what means, the real point that Catholics should be arguing is that all human life has dignity and that regardless of religion, ethnicity, sexual orientation, intellectual abilities and disabilities, every human being has the right to life. What Hitler, Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Fidel, Bin Laden, and Hussein have done is heinous. That has always been my response to the question of the Shoah.

We also have to pay very special attention to the fact that 75 years ago, Jews would not have credited any Catholic as a righteous man. Today, there is a list of righteous men and women and many are Catholics. They would not have publicly held up a Catholic for “veneration” in the Jewish sense. Today, St. Maximilian Kolbe has a special place in Jewish history and in Jewish libraries. Check It Out.

The Holy Father is welcomed in Israel as well as temples and synagogues. When the pope or bishops call upon Jewish leaders to problem solve, they respond. Even if they disagree on the solution, the conversation is civil.

Just this week, I was invited to represent the Catholic position on religious liberty by a council of Jewish Rabbis. They may not be on the same page as we are, but at least they’re curious and are not blowing us off.

Of course there are going to be dissenters among the Jews, just as there are among Christians. Some human beings are afraid that change is going to make them less Jewish or less Christian.

But we must also understand that at this crucial point in the discussions between the SSPX and the Holy Father, Jews are going to be paying close attention to see if the Holy Father throws them under the bus for the sake of Bishop W. They have a right to be anxious as should Christians be as well.

The last thing that we need is a conflict between East and West, where Jews and Christians lose their lives, because of animosity between us. Words poorly chosen can literally endanger lives. We all know that there are always radical forces out there who will use anything to their advantage, not to mention some people, Christian and non-Christians, who are independent loose canons.

We’ve come too far in the relations between Catholics and Jews to go backward now.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[JReducation]

OK, I’ve tried to PM you but I can’t find a way to do so.

I think I’ve finally settled my earlier question RE: the pope and his authority. His authority is so broad because it is practical for the good of the Church in the sense that it keeps order and peace. Is this correct?

It is broad not because it’s practical, but because he is the Vicar of Christ and Christ’s authority is broad.

You should be able to click on my name and then click “send instant message”. I window will pop open for you to write, just like a post window. Hmmm can’t figure that out.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV