Too Much Admiration of Women

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misericordie:
Thanks all for your advice. Yes, I guess I am just a normal GUY who is human and with weaknesses, some women actually are also very provacative, and also return flirts, the human phenomenon I guess? Respect yes, it must happen on both sides.
Hi Misericordie,
I know I already said this to you before in another Thread, but you remind me so much of my 36 year old son who is also single and 1/2 Sicilian…Just try to “keep custody of the eyes”
You are just a healthy red blooded un-married young man…the key word being un-married… Easy for people to talk…and it’s not easy probably for you since some of the young ladies do dress so immodestly. Anyway, I’ve placed you on my prayer list…let’s see if we get some results for both you and my son…NICE CATHOLIC GIRL! Annunciata:) (BTW, have you ever considered that you might have a Vocation?)
 
Miseri,
I agree with you on the fad of showing your drawers while out in public. I do not understand this one!
I personally do not find it erotic, I find it disgusting. And I am a woman so I like frilly underpants as much as the next gal, but sheesh!! Give me a break, there is nothing sexy about flaunting yourself that way. If you leave nothing to the imagination then you are in effect saying that you are not worth the wait…the gents can have it for free.

It is a bizarre way to approach your clothing and sexuality, that’s for sure.

Having said that, I do struggle sometimes with wearing things that do not show off my feminine side to its full advantage. My husband pays very little attention to my appearance (and is not affected by sexy clothing) so I think that I seek that validation out from others, at times. YUCK!

Just out of curiosity, what kind of ENFORCED document were you thinking of? Something along the lines of: Catholic women cannot wear shorts that are less than half the length from their hip to their knees.
Etc…?

I don’t think the Pope would do this and, furthermore, I am glad! This is not what the true Church is about, imo. Free will is a scary thing and something that is not used wisely quite often. To try and control that would be disastrous. Where would it end? Would the Pope then be responsible for laying down the law as far as how often parents can spank their kids?
I think it is a slippery slope, and one best avoided.

However, I agree that a document on modesty and its virtues and necessity would be a great thing!

P.S. Are you sure that such a thing doesn’t already exist?
 
I suffer from the same problem myself. Although, I do not flirt since I am a shy person. (I suppose shyness has its advantages) However, the looking part is what I have problems with. What I do most of the time to avoid this is just to simply look away. I know myself enough to look away, thank God for that. I don’t wish to be rude but I just simply can’t put myself in that situation.

Bottomline is, this is a point where one can either glorify God or fall into temptation. Which one would you choose?
 
I was just curious if anyone felt there was a middle ground on this. By this I mean: as an artist, I look at beautiful women everyday to try and remember a certain curve, shape, or feature that makes them beautiful, is this objectifying women? I am not lusting, but I do look and admire often. Would this be considered the same thing? I feel like beautiful women are like classic works of art, their beauty is there to be admired, but please stand behind the velvet rope ( because I have a girlfriend). So ladies, what I really want to know is am I betraying my girlfriends trust by looking at these other women and admiring their beauty?
 
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Wormwood:
I was just curious if anyone felt there was a middle ground on this. By this I mean: as an artist, I look at beautiful women everyday to try and remember a certain curve, shape, or feature that makes them beautiful, is this objectifying women? I am not lusting, but I do look and admire often. Would this be considered the same thing? I feel like beautiful women are like classic works of art, their beauty is there to be admired, but please stand behind the velvet rope ( because I have a girlfriend). So ladies, what I really want to know is am I betraying my girlfriends trust by looking at these other women and admiring their beauty?
I really don’t know. Have you talked to your girlfriend about it? I would think that would be one of the first things you would tell her! Is she beautiful? Do you admire her? Do you tell her frequently? Are there other things beautiful things you admire as well? Do you stop and stare at the sunset…or a garden of flowers…or even sometimes a very handsome man (not in a sexual way of course…but because you think he might make a good painting!). If you are always stopping to admire every beautiful thing that is put in front of you I think she would realize that your admiration of beautiful women is just part of what you are and part of your profession.

If you only admiring beautiful women and nothing else…then she probably would have a problem with it…and so would I were I your girlfriend. 😛 It would look like you were hiding behind ‘but I’m an artist’ excuse to oogle pretty women. But if you loved all things beautiful I myself would probably look over it.

I think that is what most women do with handsome men. They will admire a handsome man…they might watch the movie of a handsome actor but its more in an admiring sort of way. Unless they are squeally teeny-boppers women don’t ‘lust’ after men in quite the same way men lust after women. They still ‘look’ but for different reasons…

And there are always exceptions of course.

dream wanderer
 
Dear Misericordie,

You are quite right to feel that there is a distinction between real admiration of a beautiful woman and the urge to lust after one.

The beauty in the face and body of the opposite sex, and the rush of initial attraction (not concupiscence) experienced in response is PUT THERE BY GOD. It is, as He said in Genesis, “good,” and we dare not call it otherwise.

He put it there, however, not merely for the biological regeneration of the species. Rather, when you see an attractive woman, and for myself, an attractive man, we may take it as an invitation from God himself to receive the other as a child of God, affirming them, loving them, and giving myself disinterestedly to them in whatever capacity is possible given the situation (perhaps merely a prayer, if it is a stranger; perhaps merely a conscious thought that lust cannot possibly honor them as God’s child.) Sometimes the beauty of another provides the stimulus at the sensory level so that we can discover his or her inner beauty through friendship or service.

Lust, however, takes admiration and distorts it. When we lust, our first reaction is “I want that for me.” I want to posses what I’m looking at. Note how the sense of the other-as-person has been lost completely! They have become, in my mind, an object for me, for my gain, not a subject to give myself to.

That’s where the God-given reaction of pure admiration for beauty is twisted so dreadfully. A million frantic prayers for purity in a moment of lust will rarely help as much as a simple recongition that the “object” I am admiring is a person, wonderfully created in the image of God, whom I cannot “own” or “dominate” (such pride we have!) but whom I am called to give myself to or at least honor. That’s why desire, strong sexual desire for someone I want to give myself to disinterestedly ((as in marriage) can be quite distinct from lust… Again, if feelings of ownership and objectification are our gut responses to beauty or attraction, then even “having a wife” as some have suggested won’t help at all.

Don’t know if this helps–much of this I was taught in a Theology of the Body course in college, and it really changed me. Beating yourself up about lust does not help. A simple prayer to God for the grace to see others as His children can do wonders, at least in my experience.

Here’s a final --loosely translated --quote I love from St. Bernard:
" Chastity does not consist in pulling long faces at beautiful women, but in giving them, right away, to God, without a private rake-off first."

Best wishes,

Marion
 
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misericordie:
I have a particular problem and it is that I find myself(I am a 32 year old guy) constantly lacking “custody of the eyes” regarding women. In other words, when a beutiful woman passes in front of me, I just feel the NEED to look at her, while admiring her beuty, at times I find myself not just admiring but lusting. Even in a restuarant, I can be talking with a friend sitting right in front of me, and instead of paying attention to what my friends are saying in conversation, my eyes are “admiring” the waitress, the beutiful woman in the other table, then one who just walks in. WHAT should I do??? Does anyone have any thoughts on this or similar experiences. I also find myself flirting in excess(I am single).
I feel your pain, seriously. :banghead:

I found myself checking them out WAY TOO MUCH this semester and had to keep reminding myself to be careful. Unlike what other posters here have stated about women, they were ALWAYS returning the glances with the same zeal and thats where I started feeling the danger, women are just as bad as men, theyve just perfected the craft of looking at you when youre not looking!!

The Lord made them so beautiful for a reason…You need a wife man, find a good believing wife. :love:
 
Someone doubted that the use of pain on the wrist could deflect attention and establish or break an inappropriate association. It is in fact a good strategy. Hell will be very painful, everywhere, so be sure to engender a taste of it now. There are many ways to mortify yourself. The rubber band trick is not discreet, however, and this is a big problem with it.

As for the query, the long-term answer is to do sufficient spiritual reading so that you have enough mental associations and a breadth of understanding so that the mere appearance of a beautiful woman does not deflect you on your path. As you avert your eyes, offer your suffering to God for the conversion of the lukewarm (a suggestion).

The artist is perhaps in grave danger if he works with nude models; I’d worry that he has fooled himself into believing that lust is appropriate curiosity. When art was Christianized, nudity was dropped, and didn’t return until the rebelliousness of sin broke free again. He can check to see whether he’s fooling himself by asking, Would I like to work with clothed models? Answer–of course not: this shows that a certain secret lewdness is at issue. If you think clothed models are boring, or won’t sell, you’ve bought the Protestant-Masonic-carnal model of being.

If you try that rubber band trick, be careful not to cause damage to your blood vessels in your wrist. Physical irritation is good, though. And remember: hate the world. The world is decadent. The world is full of people who tickle each other into believing that there is no sin. The body is beautiful, this is true: but we have a fallen nature.

The points about marriage not being the answer have merit in that if you have custody-of-the-eyes problems now, marriage won’t solve it. Chastity is distinct from vocation, and mandatory for any vocation.

Read more. Read old books. Fill your head with organized pious thoughts–not a call for sentimentality, but good firm piety.

Someone suggested that maybe the Church shouldn’t condemn poor dress because after all we need a chance to exercise our free will: No. The Church should always tell the truth. St. Padre Pio as an example would not hear confessions from immodestly dressed women. (1) The Church must guide us, but refuses to do so at this point in her history. A document telling women to cover their knees and shoulders would be met with “Catholic” women crying, “Oh right, blame women.” The hierarchy is too conciliatory at this time, to tell us the truth.

As for flirting, the goodness or badness of it depends upon the purpose, content, and effect. There are all kinds of ways to interact playfully with people. A saint does not have to be somber and morose.
 
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misericordie:
I have a particular problem and it is that I find myself(I am a 32 year old guy) constantly lacking “custody of the eyes” regarding women. In other words, when a beutiful woman passes in front of me, I just feel the NEED to look at her, while admiring her beuty, at times I find myself not just admiring but lusting. Even in a restuarant, I can be talking with a friend sitting right in front of me, and instead of paying attention to what my friends are saying in conversation, my eyes are “admiring” the waitress, the beutiful woman in the other table, then one who just walks in. WHAT should I do??? Does anyone have any thoughts on this or similar experiences. I also find myself flirting in excess(I am single).
It’s biological. However, if you truly want to change, you can. Put a thick rubber band around your wrist. Your lower nature is enjoying itself at your higher nature’s expense. You need to make a pleasurable episode unpleasureable. Snap the rubber band hard! Get it? Repeat each time your eyes wonder where they ought not. No pain no gain. (Never tried this out myself.)
 
My teenage grandson was having similar problems especially with the young women in the Malls - the way they dressed and so on. Another young man about your age MC who teaches at a Catholic Boys school talked to him about realizing that women and men were all children of God and as such should not be looked at like sexual objects of desire.

The next time I went to the Mall with him I could hear him mumbling under his breath “child of God, child of God” everytime we passed an attractive or seductive looking young woman. He says it helped.

But as many have advised you, it is you who must keep custody of your eyes, when you see an attractive women, immediately lower them and say a prayer to yourself or some other distraction. Avoid places that have women that tempt you - I know men who never frequent public swimming pools because it is so difficult for them to control their lustful thoughts -

Besides you won’t have to spend so much time in the confessional for lusting in your heart. 😉
 
Marion:
A million frantic prayers for purity in a moment of lust will rarely help as much as a simple recongition that the “object” I am admiring is a person, … Don’t know if this helps–much of this I was taught in a Theology of the Body course in college,…
I’m dubious about this. It sounds okay, in some senses: yes, e.g., we are called to appreciate each other deeply and not superficially. But this theology of the body sounds charismatic and coincides chronologically with tremendous failures in the Church: people who self-identify as Catholic accept abortion, contraception, fornication, and homosexuality at rates that would not give a neutral observer much reason to believe that the faith was much of a contradistinction to society at large. Also the Church has a poor track record of dealing with many post-1970 priests who seemed to have a rather strange theology of the body, mostly of young adolescent boys. It is untrue that Catholics for centuries before the 1960s were in a benighted reign of timidity, in need of a new theology of the body. It is also untrue that the modern world needs to teach the Church how to think about these matters. The world embraces an erroneous ontology and an incorrect fact set.

The notion that a person who we find attractive is someone we can think of more deeply and consider honoring is more likely than not a bit of fantasy that will easily lend itself to still other fantasies–exactly what the penitent wants to avoid. When a scantily-clad young woman, or even a normatively-dressed young woman, happens along, what is at issue is reaction time, and accepting that she is violating the norms that are necessary for us both to be preserved from sin. I am not made to see a navel or underwear frill and think how much I need to honor this person. The danger that I see is that if I try to train myself in this regard, I will probably open up a closet back-door to a kind of secret lust in which I look admiringly upon scantily-clad women while supposing them to be theoretical targets of my spiritual objectives.

A group of cardinals was standing on a street once, when a prostitute happened by. The prostitute was of the beautiful variety, very pricey no doubt, catering only to the elite. All of the cardinals save one averted their eyes and prayed, for themselves and for her. To the great suprise of the others, the one cardinal took off after her. When he returned, they queried him about his intentions. The cardinal said, ‘How sad that such a beautiful woman is not given exclusively to God’.

The cute story is plausible and indeed I agree it can be done: lasciviousness doesn’t necessarily lead a viewer astray. But don’t kid yourself. Your future wife should be wearing a modest dress. If the woman you see is wearing tight clothing or worse, you need to be looking in another direction.

Another red flag in the note is the partial critique of prayer. Prayer is described favorably in the context of asking God that we might see the deeper reality of the person. Doesn’t that sound rather new-age? And prayer is caricatured and criticized in respect of the more traditional sense: tons of prayer won’t make you chaste, the modern view supposes. And this is an erroneous view. The angels and saints want very much for you to be chaste. You think they won’t help you? Remember that there are many forces conspiring to try to desacralize the Catholic Church and to erase all essential Catholic elements from our religion. This view of prayer in the theology of the body is intended to minimize intercessory prayer. Not totally, of course, as that would be too obvious a tack.
 
Two comments

Jerome declared that his lust was unending and he wondered if there was a “cure”. So when ever he felt lust, he turned his mind to studing hebrew. He became one of the foremost Hebrew scholars, but I really don’t know if he cured his lust…but he intended to.

Second, we all still have concupiscence, the tendancy to sin. If you see a pretty woman and you DON’T look, perhaps you are already dead (Dr Scott Hahn).

MrS
 
I guess we could all dress like the Arab women so as to be occasions of sin for you guys:p
 
I just want to agree with the other replies, that going to get married is not going to be your solution. That this temptation, even though an always great influence, will never go away. There really is not a time that the devil is going to promise to leave us alone. We will always have to live with that temptation no matter what our call in life. And, hey, married people - believe it or not can fall into sexual sin as well. Marriage is not a license to do whatever.

Especially the way most women dress these days it is kind of a no brainer that that is an element that does no help for men. Not to say that it is their problem. I think that many of the young women today are really ignorant of what type of effect they have on men by dressing the way that they do. Pray for them.

I agree totally with the fasting. There are not many alternatives to strengthening the will than to get our desires put in line first. And depriving our bodies of something that it wants takes ‘will’ power. The more that this can be practised - the more chance there will be for the will to be strengthened.

And I would say too, one of the most important things to think of when you see or talk to any woman, is to remember that God is her Creator, her Father and in some way, you are her brother. I would suggest, if you have the time, read Tobit, I have found it to be a good story in light of matters such as these. It is a short book in the Old Testament. Well, good luck.

And just remember , PRAY.

jegow
 
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deogratias:
I guess we could all dress like the Arab women so as to be occasions of sin for you guys:p
Maybe men should dress like Arab Women or women from Afghanistan, and their vision would be compromised enough, they wouldn’t have a problem anymore. 🙂

Annie
 
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misericordie:
I have a particular problem and it is that I find myself(I am a 32 year old guy) constantly lacking “custody of the eyes” regarding women. In other words, when a beutiful woman passes in front of me, I just feel the NEED to look at her, while admiring her beuty, at times I find myself not just admiring but lusting. Even in a restuarant, I can be talking with a friend sitting right in front of me, and instead of paying attention to what my friends are saying in conversation, my eyes are “admiring” the waitress, the beutiful woman in the other table, then one who just walks in. WHAT should I do??? Does anyone have any thoughts on this or similar experiences. I also find myself flirting in excess(I am single).
Yo Misericordie, I feel you man. I’m 23 and trying to live a Christ centered life. I used to be a lusty little horn dog when I was a freshman in college. The guys I hung out with encouraged it. It was the cool thing to do. Any guy who actually respected a woman was looked at as weak, inferior or gay. Its difficult being young, single and celebate in our society, but not impossible. Believe it or not, it is a choice. We aren’t dogs that go into heat and can’t control themselves.

I understand and empathize with your temptations but we as Catholics are very very very lucky. We have awesome tools in the Church such as daily Mass, confession, the catechism, the examples of the saints and other things to aid us.

Whenever I find myself “admiring” a girl who is very scantily clad I try and think of Mary the mother of God, my mother or of my sisters. It ends any fantasy I may be having VERY quickly! Who wants someone to be checking out there sis or mom like they are a piece of meat :bigyikes: ?!!??

Your brother in Christ,

Esclavo De Cristo
 
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Joanna:
It’s biological. However, if you truly want to change, you can. Put a thick rubber band around your wrist. Your lower nature is enjoying itself at your higher nature’s expense. You need to make a pleasurable episode unpleasureable. Snap the rubber band hard! Get it? Repeat each time your eyes wonder where they ought not. No pain no gain. (Never tried this out myself.)
Ha! Nice advice. I think some of us would need a rubber band with a pin or a nail in it!
 
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EsclavoDeCristo:
Ha! Nice advice. I think some of us :would need a rubber band with a pin or a nail in it!
:yup: You are right, but to again be righteous, best be ready with profound contrition and maybe a hair shirt.
 
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jegow:
I just want to agree with the other replies, that going to get married is not going to be your solution. That this temptation, even though an always great influence, will never go away. There really is not a time that the devil is going to promise to leave us alone. We will always have to live with that temptation no matter what our call in life. And, hey, married people - believe it or not can fall into sexual sin as well. Marriage is not a license to do whatever.

Especially the way most women dress these days it is kind of a no brainer that that is an element that does no help for men. Not to say that it is their problem. I think that many of the young women today are really ignorant of what type of effect they have on men by dressing the way that they do. Pray for them.

I agree totally with the fasting. There are not many alternatives to strengthening the will than to get our desires put in line first. And depriving our bodies of something that it wants takes ‘will’ power. The more that this can be practised - the more chance there will be for the will to be strengthened.

And I would say too, one of the most important things to think of when you see or talk to any woman, is to remember that God is her Creator, her Father and in some way, you are her brother. I would suggest, if you have the time, read Tobit, I have found it to be a good story in light of matters such as these. It is a short book in the Old Testament. Well, good luck.

And just remember , PRAY.

jegow
This is the best post yet. No, it seems many women don’t care if they TEMPT a guy to sin by the way they dress. What about like my parish secretary who is 22 years old, and loves to be flirty, and shows much: low cut dresses, cleavege, etc. And she loves to flirt even by the way she talks. and laughs with guys(she claims she has a boyfriend though).
 
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