Too much chatter in the Sanctuary

[Actaeon]

“The Mass has ended, go in Peace to love and serve the Lord” and the closing hymn has finished, I don’t see what the big deal is.

Here’s my dilemma: I agree with the idea that we should be quiet in the sanctuary while not agreeing with judgement towards those who are noisy… so if it looks like I’m flip-flopping “sides” (not that there are such a thing as “sides” in the catholic church) bear with me, because I’m a little stuck in the middle here.

Why does it matter? Christ is the king of kings, and mass is, to some extent, our encounter with the King in His throne room. But Christ isn’t just present in the church during the mass, Christ the King is present in the church at all times (resting in the Tabernacle). As such, the sanctuary SHOULD BE a stately place of quiet reverence in respect for the presence of God.

To carry about with mundane conversations certainly violates the structuring of the church as the kingdom of God… nobody in the English court would consider citizens granted an audience with the Queen taking time to discuss the best way to clean their countertops at all acceptable… so why should we expect anything less when it comes to standing in the presence of Christ, the King of Kings?

And that’s why I think that social education is more important than blasting these noisy people as irreverent towards God: we lack any monarchy in the US, and even in countries with a monarchy, the idea of the supremecy of the ruling class (such that quiet reverence was the norm with those earthly leaders) has fallen off. As such, people are unfamiliar with why they should be quiet in the sanctuary… not JUST to be respectful to people trying to pray, but MORE IMPORTANTLY because it is a social form of respect to Christ… a social form of respect that people are less and less aware of today.

Sitting around on the internets and decrying the lack of training in deportment in western society by calling people irreverent and undedicated isn’t really going to do much regarding the fact that people simply don’t know any better (or understand why the custom is in place to begin with).

 

[Prairie_Rose]

Thank You to everyone that responded to this thread - I’ve come away from this having learned alot and for that I’m grateful.

I believe I will go & see Father and mention my concerns about the decline of reverence and leave the matter in his hands, and if he decides it isn’t a valid concern, I will respect his decision.

In no way do I believe anyone in my Parish is deliberately being noisy on purpose and it’s probably just a matter of not being aware that others are being disrupted.

Just recently Father spoke out about instances where the receiving of Communion was not as reverent as it could be, and he gave advice & suggestions on proper form. Maybe he will be inclined to mention this subject as well.

Again, the discussion was helpful and I’m hoping everyone else has learned something from this as well as I.

In Christ…
Prairie Rose

 

[jp2012]

I go to a church where people pretty much do as they please. I’m a sacristan and some of the older people who go to my church actually think they run the place. They stroll into the sacristy and onto the sanctuary during mass if they see something “out of place” EX: last week this older man just wanted to “check” that there where enough purificators for the chalices at mass so he actually walked onto the sanctuary during mass and started inspecting the side table where the vessels are kept for mass. This is a VERY common thing at my church and the priests are well aware of it but refuse to do anything. When i get to church in the morning, i get there at about 6:30 in time to set up for the early morning masses. BTW, i’m only 18. When pull up to the church, there are usually 2 or 3 of those people waiting to get in and do “their duties” which include giving me a hard time about how many communion hosts to put out, making sure there is enough wine in the chalices down to the millileter, and standing around/on the sanctuary before mass. After dealing with this for about 4 years, i finally said something to them last week. One of them walked on to the altar during mass to ask for the tabernacle key so he could make sure “we had enough”, i got pissed and told him to sit down and that it was absolutely ridiculous that he has such disrespect for the mass and the church by what he was doing. (that was in the sacristy during mass). I understand that I am supposed to worry about myself during mass and not focus on what other people are doing wrong, but what happens when those other people begin interferring with my time at Mass? These several people pushed my pastor to keep the tabernacle key IN THE TABERNACLE lock at all times. So anyone who wants access to the Blessed Sacrament is completely free to just open and take…unbelievable. The EMHC’s also purify the sacred vessels after mass against the instruction of the Holy Father… can anyone answer or at least try to help me as i’m considering leaving this parish which happens to be the one i was baptized in and grew up in. God Bless

 

[Actaeon]

I go to a church where people pretty much do as they please. I’m a sacristan and some of the older people who go to my church actually think they run the place. They stroll into the sacristy and onto the sanctuary during mass if they see something “out of place” EX: last week this older man just wanted to “check” that there where enough purificators for the chalices at mass so he actually walked onto the sanctuary during mass and started inspecting the side table where the vessels are kept for mass. This is a VERY common thing at my church and the priests are well aware of it but refuse to do anything. When i get to church in the morning, i get there at about 6:30 in time to set up for the early morning masses. BTW, i’m only 18. When pull up to the church, there are usually 2 or 3 of those people waiting to get in and do “their duties” which include giving me a hard time about how many communion hosts to put out, making sure there is enough wine in the chalices down to the millileter, and standing around/on the sanctuary before mass. After dealing with this for about 4 years, i finally said something to them last week. One of them walked on to the altar during mass to ask for the tabernacle key so he could make sure “we had enough”, i got pissed and told him to sit down and that it was absolutely ridiculous that he has such disrespect for the mass and the church by what he was doing. (that was in the sacristy during mass). I understand that I am supposed to worry about myself during mass and not focus on what other people are doing wrong, but what happens when those other people begin interferring with my time at Mass? These several people pushed my pastor to keep the tabernacle key IN THE TABERNACLE lock at all times. So anyone who wants access to the Blessed Sacrament is completely free to just open and take…unbelievable. The EMHC’s also purify the sacred vessels after mass against the instruction of the Holy Father… can anyone answer or at least try to help me as i’m considering leaving this parish which happens to be the one i was baptized in and grew up in. God Bless

This is not exactly related to idle chatter in the pews and aisles after mass… perhaps you’d like to start a new thread to get answers on this very serious issue?

 

[robwar]

I go to a church where people pretty much do as they please. I’m a sacristan and some of the older people who go to my church actually think they run the place. They stroll into the sacristy and onto the sanctuary during mass if they see something “out of place” EX: last week this older man just wanted to “check” that there where enough purificators for the chalices at mass so he actually walked onto the sanctuary during mass and started inspecting the side table where the vessels are kept for mass. This is a VERY common thing at my church and the priests are well aware of it but refuse to do anything. When i get to church in the morning, i get there at about 6:30 in time to set up for the early morning masses. BTW, i’m only 18. When pull up to the church, there are usually 2 or 3 of those people waiting to get in and do “their duties” which include giving me a hard time about how many communion hosts to put out, making sure there is enough wine in the chalices down to the millileter, and standing around/on the sanctuary before mass. After dealing with this for about 4 years, i finally said something to them last week. One of them walked on to the altar during mass to ask for the tabernacle key so he could make sure “we had enough”, i got pissed and told him to sit down and that it was absolutely ridiculous that he has such disrespect for the mass and the church by what he was doing. (that was in the sacristy during mass). I understand that I am supposed to worry about myself during mass and not focus on what other people are doing wrong, but what happens when those other people begin interferring with my time at Mass? These several people pushed my pastor to keep the tabernacle key IN THE TABERNACLE lock at all times. So anyone who wants access to the Blessed Sacrament is completely free to just open and take…unbelievable. The EMHC’s also purify the sacred vessels after mass against the instruction of the Holy Father… can anyone answer or at least try to help me as i’m considering leaving this parish which happens to be the one i was baptized in and grew up in. God Bless

Since these are older adults and what sound like very set in their ways (which are not right) they probably not going to respect you at 18. since the priest doesn’t seems to want to control what is going on, to give yourself some peace and to be able to serve and fulfill your duties as a sacristan, you might have to look at another parish. Just because this is the parish you were baptized at does not mean you have to stay there. Sometimes Priests are so overwhelmed with a number of issues and while this situation is not right, the priest may not want to take on a group of older parishioners. These may be the people on parish counsel, give the most to the church, always come and volunteer etc. At 18, you most likely can’t change this but you can decide that this is the time to move on to some place new. You will always have your ties there but maybe the turmoil that this is causing you is in some way God trying to lead you elsewhere. I remember at a former parish, the morning mass was getting out while cars were pulling in to drop of children for the school. This signs for the parking lot were clearly one way. There were several near misses as cars were leaving the wrong way. When brought to the priest attention to maybe say something at mass, he just shrugged his shoulders and said can’t change old people. Its a sad reality sometimes but rethink where you want to go and serve and not be frustrated.

 

[Exorcist]

The priest in my parish had to put out a specific request for this to stop a couple of weeks ago… there’s been no noticible improvement.

I’m glad your pastor had the resolve to do that. Mine would NEVER do that. I am amazed that no one heeded his word.

 

[Faithdancer]

Some people do like to sit (or kneel) and pray some when Mass is finished for a few minutes, and would appreciate some semblance of quiet. I know its not required but I see more people spending time in quiet prayer after Mass regardless of the form you attended. But usually with the EF Mass, people tend to be much more considerate of those praying before and/or after Mass, and keep the volumes minimal.

Absolutely agree with you Miss Rose about the greater consideration of those who attend the EF Mass. At the only church in our diocese which offers the EF Mass- two per week- there is never chatter before or after any Mass, EF or Novus Ordo. People go outside to talk. There is also no hand holding or shaking and there is a strict dress code, graphically represented on a sign right outside the main doors. Incidentally, there is also Reconciliation offered before every single Mass, starting at 6 am. That is a level of priestly dedication and service I have not seen anywhere else.**

 

[Faithdancer]

I think it’s about a lack of understanding regarding the Eucharist. If people really understood the concept of the Real Presence, there would be a different attitude about the sanctuary and our behavior in it. We need to recapture our sense of sacred space, which is something we lost during what my religion professor used to call the “warm, fuzzy Jesus” years.

Very good points Seeker. Studies have shown that less than half of Catholics believe in the real presence, something like that. Equallly scary, by the way, around 75% of Catholics attend Reconciliation less than once a year, or never. That is according to the Fordham U. study. Somehow I think you are right, all of these things go together as a general lack of reverence and respect for where we are and whose house it is.

 

[Faithdancer]

In many parishes, people have no regard for what the priest says. If he asks people to take their conversations out into the vestibule, they will say (with reference to a preceding pastor) that “Fr. So-and-so encouraged us to socialize, and we disagree with you on this.” The same goes for applauding the choir, making priestly gestures during Mass (i.e. that silly “And with your spirit” hand-spread), or roaming around during the sign of peace and well into the Agnus Dei. “Fr. So-and-so wanted us to have ‘good community’.”

:clapping:

 

[Faithdancer]

Thank You to everyone that responded to this thread - I’ve come away from this having learned alot and for that I’m grateful.

I believe I will go & see Father and mention my concerns about the decline of reverence and leave the matter in his hands, and if he decides it isn’t a valid concern, I will respect his decision.

In no way do I believe anyone in my Parish is deliberately being noisy on purpose and it’s probably just a matter of not being aware that others are being disrupted.

Just recently Father spoke out about instances where the receiving of Communion was not as reverent as it could be, and he gave advice & suggestions on proper form. Maybe he will be inclined to mention this subject as well.

Again, the discussion was helpful and I’m hoping everyone else has learned something from this as well as I.

In Christ…
Prairie Rose

It’s a good thread, Prairie Rose, and your posts are thoughtful, well reasoned and most refreshingly, humble. And, as I’m sure you know, no one except a priest, or perhaps your spiritual counselor, has the right to or should advise you whether or not you are in a proper state to receive Holy Communion. Assuming one does not have access to a priest immediately prior to Mass, one’s own conscience, informed by reason and natural and divine law, is to be one’s guide.

 

[g_ncl]

In a recent reply on the AAA forum Fr. Serpa has said that it takes about 15 minutes for the bread and wine to lose their apparent physical properties, after which they are no longer the Eucharist. Until then, however, the Lord is within you as He is in the monstrance. If we adore Him when the Blessed Sacrament is exposed, how would I not want to adore Him when he has just come to me in the same form, in body? This is why I would like a bit of quiet after Mass in the church. I see your point, Cat, about us having to learn to pray in the midst of noise and confusion, but in a hospital the noise and confusion serves a purpose (e.g. paging doctors or carrying out tasks).

I believe, however, that the Lord Jesus would not be angry with those who are attempting to showing loving friendship to their Christian brothers and sisters.

Of course not. But He might be wondering why the people who wish to show their loving friendship are doing it making a lot of noise in a sacred space where others are still trying to live their Communion intimacy with Him…

Finally, I think that one of the issues that we need to address is WHY we feel the need to speak with our Christian brothers and sisters in the nave.

In England we probably have more bad weather than most of you in the USA . But most churches here have a more or less separate foyer, i.e when you enter the church, there is a section of about 4 meters and the whole width of the church, where there are tables for pamphlets and newspapers, shelves for hymnals and other books, sometimes a little stand where you can buy prayer books and rosaries, and enough space for 20-30 people to stand or sit and chat. In some churches after Mass they put tables out for coffee and biscuits. Then there are glass doors and you enter the actual church. What I don’t see is why people inisist on socialising in the church itself, as opposed to this space, which was created especially for the purpose of socialising, and it’s not even a separate church hall, but a place where you would have to pass through on your way out anyway.

I would ask the readers of this thread when the last time was that you had friends over for dinner? Or coffee? I would also ask, “Do you even have any friends.”

I am happy to start: I had a friend round for coffee a few weeks ago. I had another for dinner a few weeks before that and went to a friend’s house in the past few weeks. I am also going to a friend’s house next week. And went out to a restaurant to have lunch with a friend last Sunday after Mass. Meeting up with a friend for coffee this Sat. I agree with you that it is very important for your mental health and general wellbeing to have friends.

So my proposal is that the chatter in the nave is symptomatic of something that is wrong in our U.S. society–we have lost the ability to make and maintain friendships

That’s so sad, Cat. I have never been to the US (though I’d love to visit one day), but from telly, documentaries and what I read I always had the impression that people in the US are very friendly and socially very relaxed.

 

[Phemie]

In many parishes, people have no regard for what the priest says. If he asks people to take their conversations out into the vestibule, they will say (with reference to a preceding pastor) that “Fr. So-and-so encouraged us to socialize, and we disagree with you on this.” The same goes for applauding the choir, making priestly gestures during Mass (i.e. that silly “And with your spirit” hand-spread), or roaming around during the sign of peace and well into the Agnus Dei. “Fr. So-and-so wanted us to have ‘good community’.”

That.

When the new GIRM was promulgated last year and one article was about reverent silence before Mass and one was about the sober exchange of the Sign of Peace, the woman who had been pretty much doing everything to keep the parish running since our Pastor had left announced these two things at the end of Mass one day. After she’d finished explaining these things, the administrator, who saw his job as strictly one of dispensing sacraments, but who saw no reason to be available for confession and cancelled Mass at the drop of a hat, got up and said, “Thank you, B. Now I just need to say that what the GIRM says are just suggestions and this parish is to continue being the friendly place it’s always been.”

Forget sacred silence before or after Mass.

 

[Faithdancer]

That.

When the new GIRM was promulgated last year and one article was about reverent silence before Mass and one was about the sober exchange of the Sign of Peace, the woman who had been pretty much doing everything to keep the parish running since our Pastor had left announced these two things at the end of Mass one day. After she’d finished explaining these things, the administrator, who saw his job as strictly one of dispensing sacraments, but who saw no reason to be available for confession and cancelled Mass at the drop of a hat, got up and said, “Thank you, B. Now I just need to say that what the GIRM says are just suggestions and this parish is to continue being the friendly place it’s always been.”

Forget sacred silence before or after Mass.

That’s rough, Phemie. I’ll pray for your parish.

 

[starryheart]

I go to a church where people pretty much do as they please. I’m a sacristan and some of the older people who go to my church actually think they run the place. They stroll into the sacristy and onto the sanctuary during mass if they see something “out of place” EX: last week this older man just wanted to “check” that there where enough purificators for the chalices at mass so he actually walked onto the sanctuary during mass and started inspecting the side table where the vessels are kept for mass. This is a VERY common thing at my church and the priests are well aware of it but refuse to do anything. When i get to church in the morning, i get there at about 6:30 in time to set up for the early morning masses. BTW, i’m only 18. When pull up to the church, there are usually 2 or 3 of those people waiting to get in and do “their duties” which include giving me a hard time about how many communion hosts to put out, making sure there is enough wine in the chalices down to the millileter, and standing around/on the sanctuary before mass. After dealing with this for about 4 years, i finally said something to them last week. One of them walked on to the altar during mass to ask for the tabernacle key so he could make sure “we had enough”, i got pissed and told him to sit down and that it was absolutely ridiculous that he has such disrespect for the mass and the church by what he was doing. (that was in the sacristy during mass). I understand that I am supposed to worry about myself during mass and not focus on what other people are doing wrong, but what happens when those other people begin interferring with my time at Mass? These several people pushed my pastor to keep the tabernacle key IN THE TABERNACLE lock at all times. So anyone who wants access to the Blessed Sacrament is completely free to just open and take…unbelievable. The EMHC’s also purify the sacred vessels after mass against the instruction of the Holy Father… can anyone answer or at least try to help me as i’m considering leaving this parish which happens to be the one i was baptized in and grew up in. God Bless

This is horrible! Please talk to the pastor. If not go to the Bishop, Cardinal whoever will do something. This is serious.

 

[Actaeon]

Very good points Seeker. Studies have shown that less than half of Catholics believe in the real presence, something like that.

That would be disappointing… if only it were true!

The study you are referencing is a gallup poll which was largely criticized in their methodologies. Their question referenced four very technical explanations of the real presence, and if someone answered incorrectly on the correct definition, then they were considered to not have belief in the real presence. Obviously, that’s a terrible method for a study, even if it DOES indicate that more technically proficient catechesis needs to occur.

Since then, gallup and other polls have more accurately reflected that 81% of catholics consider that “belief that Jesus is really present in the Eucharist” is essential in their understanding of the Catholic faith

There are reasons that the media wants to paint a dismal picture of the state of Catholicism (such as the absolutely ludicrous “99% of Catholics are using contraception” statistic that came out to support a highly politicized debate on the HHS mandate)… but I urge you not to lend credence to such efforts by reposting them without research.

Equallly scary, by the way, around 75% of Catholics attend Reconciliation less than once a year, or never. That is according to the Fordham U. study.

Actually, this number is correct, and reflects the numbers established by CARA, one of the Catholic Statistical Research arms that the vatican uses in the USofA. However, some clarification needs to be made in light of CARA’s findings:

1. Mass attendence is a major factor in this statistic: Catholics who go to mass weekly are 61% likely to go to confession at least once a year. Even those who go to mass only once a month or so report a 37% chance of going to confession at least once a year. The numbers are dragged down by catholics who attend mass only a few times a year or never… which we would expect because their disobedience to church teachings in the area of Sunday Obligation are likely to impact their belief in the need for reconciliation as well.
2. Age is also a major factor, with pre-Vatican II aged people attending confession the most, and millenials (the current generation of 20-30 year olds) coming in a tie for second with the vatican II generation. Only the “post vatican II generation” seems to have been lost in the mix, as attendance at confession is on the rise.
3. Region also plays a major part, with the more liberal west and northwest reporting far lower attendance at confession than the East. Not surprisingly, the south goes to confession most faithfully in the USofA.
4. Strangely, only 33% strongly believe that they can be a good catholic without going to confession once a year… so there’s obviously some cognitive dissonance here, because there is a large percentage of people who know they need to go to confession but don’t. I suggest SOME of that is because some people feel they are living in sin and feel that they CANNOT validly go to confession (which may be wrong, but with a good intention)

A neat little graphic on the matter:

Somehow I think you are right, all of these things go together as a general lack of reverence and respect for where we are and whose house it is.

Eh, again, I think that if we were to take a poll of Catholics who actually espouse the faith (rather than people who only claim Catholic because they were baptised as children and haven’t set foot in a church since) and we asked “Do you respect and revere God?” that the vast majority would say yes (I’m thinking it would come up in the 99% yes range).

So it’s not that these people don’t respect or revere God, that’s obviously not the issue and hanging on to that idea can only impede progress.

As I’ve stated, I think the issue here is less one of ACTUAL disrespect for God, but more one of people not understanding or being educated on HOW to show respect for God, or if they DO have that understanding, then they have not been educated on WHY those particular methods of showing respect are important.

In other words, it’s not a problem that people have no regard for God, but rather that they don’t properly understand the methods of showing such regard.

 

[Prairie_Rose]

As I’ve stated, I think the issue here is less one of ACTUAL disrespect for God, but more one of people not understanding or being educated on HOW to show respect for God, or if they DO have that understanding, then they have not been educated on WHY those particular methods of showing respect are important.

In other words, it’s not a problem that people have no regard for God, but rather that they don’t properly understand the methods of showing such regard.

I agree!!!

 

[andrewstx]

Just a picky fussy correction, the chatter is hopefully not in the sanctuary. The sanctuary is the portion of the church where the altar(s) is, behind the altat rail if you still have one.

Technically the chatter is going on in the nave.

 

[Nelka]

This was AWESOME - Thanks so much for sharing!!
The sad thing is - even if Father did address the problem, those that are the worst offenders probably wouldn’t recognize themselves as the problem

Good point.

 

[Faithdancer]

Actually a more careful reading of the CARA study reveals that while the number of believers in the Real Presence is high among those who attend Mass weekly- 91%- only 23% of respondents reported weekly Mass attendance. Of those who attend Mass at least monthly, 65% reported that they believe in the Real Presence and of those who attend Mass “a few times a year” only 40% believed in the Real Presence. 66% of those surveyed reported that they attend Mass either “a few times a year” or “rarely or never.” So, 66% of adult Catholics attend Mass a few times a year or less, and the percentage of those attending Mass a few times a year or less who believe in the Real Presence is 40% at best, certainly lower if we include the 32% of adult Catholics who attend Mass “rarely or never.” Again, these numbers are from the CARA study at Fordham University, and not from a Gallup poll.

Put another way, of the majority of adult Catholics (66%), only 40% or less believe in the Real Presence. I wonder that anyone could not find this alarming, and clear evidence of a crisis in adult faith formation. Although we could discount 2/3 of baptized Catholics and only focus on the weekly Mass attendees. It is obviously not the 23% of weekly Mass attendees who are in dire need of evangelization and renewed formation.

Here is a link to the study itself: cara.georgetown.edu/sacraments.html