Too much singing (inappropriate times)?

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Hi guys,

Just a question on the liturgy. I have never been a fan of singing too much during mass, I think hymns are important but often it becomes a show-case for the choir rather than a way of praising the Lord.

Anyway, I just want to know if a few things are okay (I live in South Africa where we use the new translation, but you’ll still know what I’m talking about)

Instead of the part where we say:

Lord have mercy, Christ have mercy, Lord have mercy & instead of the Gloria the choir sings. In Zulu. The congregation is fifty fifty zulu and english, and everyone speaks english whereas only 50% speak zulu (so only half understand what is being sung by the choir).

Instead of the part where we say:

Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God of hosts (just before the consecration)… The choir sings. In zulu again.

Instead of the Mystery of Faith… the choir sings the words “Lord by your cross and resurrection you have set us free you are the saviour of the world”. (which isn’t even an option in the new translation, so they aren’t even singing a part that otherwise would’ve beens spoken).

Instead of saying Amen after the doxology, the choir sings the word amen and hellelujah (specifically, amen amen amen amen hallelujah amen amen amen amen hallelujah)

Instead of the part where you say:

Lamb of God you take away the sins of the world, have mercy on us etc etc… the choir sings, in zulu.

I just feel robbed, to be honest. firstly, I believe singing should be left to hymns, not responses. secondly, I don’t speak zulu (only half the parish does, but everyone speaks english) so I don’t even know what is going on in the words! And sometimes when things are sung, it goes on for like 5 minutes complete with drums and ululating and I’m sitting there thinking well a simple Amen would have done better. IT makes me feel as if the mass is interrupted by a commercial break of the choir flexing vocal chords.

So I would just like to know if I have any case? Or just any thoughts?

I swear, I’m not a prude 😛

👍
 
Those are all common and allowed times to sing (the Kyrie, Holy Holy, mystery of faith, and Lamb of God). I’m not an expert, but I bet someone will find a passage that says even chant is preferable to even speaking.

Personally, I like the singing at those parts. But I also like singing.
 
You should be allowed to participate with the whole congregation during the times that you mention. These are not private prayers and should be prayed together. Check with your Liturgy Committee and see what their take is on this. If over 50% of the congregation does not understand Zulu then maybe these can be sung in English. The singing is not inappropriate but your participation is limited and should be encouraged. I’ve been to many bi-lingual Masses whereby we must follow along in English where the readings or prayers are in the other language but if this is your only opportunity for Mass it should be addressed. That’s my two cents for whatever it’s worth… teachccd
 
Actually the liturgical preference would be to emphasize the singing or chanting of the Mass parts. The singing of hymns is of lessor importance.

The matter of what language should be used for the Mass parts and whether valid translations of those parts are being used is a different question which I will let others tackle.
 
NewsTheMan said:
So I would just like to know if I have any case? Or just any thoughts?

I swear, I’m not a prude 😛

👍
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I’m with you.

Our Church has a 7:30 am mass that’s too early for the choir. The only musical notes are the ones ordinarily chanted by the priest.
 
Thanks for the responses so far!

I have been to mass’s where responses were sung or chanted, and I was neutral on that, actually enjoyed it sometimes more than just saying it. However, my problem is that well… a 5 minute song with drums and ululating instead of a simple “amen” or the actual prayer just makes me feel like im not participating in the mass. It’s hard to explain. But seriously, during the Lamb of God for example, I and most others just stand there whilst there is a 5 minute song in a language half don’t understand and 90% aren’t participating in. Know what I mean? I wanna participate. I’ve had bi-lingual mass before where it was done appropriately and I had no problem, but specifically singing responses as a choir to the exclusion of others doesn’t make me feel like im my homely catholic mass!
 
We have a bi-lingual liturgy weekly. Thats OK because I can go elsewhere. I’m NOT a bigot. In fact I have a Hispanic daughter-in-law who I think is the greatest young lady on earth (except for my wife). Its just not in my culture. Besides I prefer the EF Mass which I get to as often as possible.

Our EF schola is really great. We do not do Dialog Masses. Although there is a small crowd that doesn’t get it yet.
 
My biggest beef is the entrance hymn. I cannot find a source to support my belief but I say once the priest kisses the altar and goes to the chair, that should be the cue for the choir to end the hymn. Today, our pastor deflated when the guitarist and choir kept on going to the third verse of the song. When the choir started in on the chorus, he loudly began with the sign of the cross.

Joe
 
The Kyrie (“Lord, have mercy…”) is to be sung by the whole congregation. (cf. GIRM 52)

The Gloria may be sung by the choir alone. (cf. GIRM 53)

The Sanctus (“Holy, Holy, Holy…”) is to be sung by the whole congregation. (cf. GIRM 79b, 148)

The acclamation after the priest says “The mystery of faith” is to be sung by the whole congregation. (cf. GIRM 151)

The Amen at the end of the Eucharistic Prayer is only supposed to be “Amen” (although I suppose it can be repeated), but only the word “Amen”. The whole congregation says or sings this. (cf. GIRM 79h)

The Agnus Dei (“Lamb of God…”) is to be sung by the choir and congregation. (cf. GIRM 83)
 
NewsTheMan said:
So I would just like to know if I have any case? Or just any thoughts?
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First, what does “ululating” mean?

Second, as another poster has pointed out, the Mass parts are supposed to be sung if possible.

Third, would it be possible for you and other English speakers to learn a bit of Zulu and participate in the singing? It would be a wonderful sign of unity.

Betsy
 
Jguerra said:
I say once the priest kisses the altar and goes to the chair, that should be the cue for the choir to end the hymn. … When the choir started in on the chorus, he loudly began with the sign of the cross.
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The priest and choir should not be in competition. But there are some hymns that end with a Trinitarian verse, and that should (in my opinion) be included for the integrity of the hymn.
 
corsair said:
I prefer the EF Mass which I get to as often as possible. Our EF schola is really great. We do not do Dialog Masses. Although there is a small crowd that doesn’t get it yet.
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It’s not improper for the congregation to desire to participate vocally in the Mass, even in the E.F. Popes Pius X, XI, and XII all sought to renew lay participation in the chants of the Mass.
 
Jguerra said:
My biggest beef is the entrance hymn. I cannot find a source to support my belief but I say once the priest kisses the altar and goes to the chair, that should be the cue for the choir to end the hymn. Today, our pastor deflated when the guitarist and choir kept on going to the third verse of the song. When the choir started in on the chorus, he loudly began with the sign of the cross.
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Wow, I’ve never seen a priest who had a problem with a few extra verses. Usually they grab a hymnal and sing along. If the priest doesn’t like it, it would probably be best to talk to the choir (director) after the mass to clarify.
 
baltobetsy said:
Third, would it be possible for you and other English speakers to learn a bit of Zulu and participate in the singing? It would be a wonderful sign of unity.

Betsy
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Actually, a greater sign of unity would be to have the parts of the Mass chanted in Latin. Pope Benedict states this in Sacramentum Caritaits:
The Latin language
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  1. None of the above observations should cast doubt upon the importance of such large-scale liturgies. I am thinking here particularly of celebrations at international gatherings, which nowadays are held with greater frequency. The most should be made of these occasions. In order to express more clearly the unity and universality of the Church, I wish to endorse the proposal made by the Synod of Bishops, in harmony with the directives of the Second Vatican Council, (182) that, with the exception of the readings, the homily and the prayer of the faithful, it is fitting that such liturgies be celebrated in Latin. Similarly, the better-known prayers (183) of the Church’s tradition should be recited in Latin and, if possible, selections of Gregorian chant should be sung. Speaking more generally, I ask that future priests, from their time in the seminary, receive the preparation needed to understand and to celebrate Mass in Latin, and also to use Latin texts and execute Gregorian chant; nor should we forget that the faithful can be taught to recite the more common prayers in Latin, and also to sing parts of the liturgy to Gregorian chant. (184)
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Latin is the great unifier, I believe.
 
I agree with you about the singing (in any language). Daily Mass is great in my parish because there isn’t any singing at all! Once a month, the choir “chants”, obviously they think they are good. I just avoid that Mass, glad it is listed beforehand in the bulletin. When the choir is really bad on Sunday’s I just concentrate on the Lord and enter into contemplation. Remember that when we suffer we are being kissed by Christ!!
 
Japhy - thanks, that was what I was looking for!

Ok, I understand some parts are to be sung or chanted. As I say, I’ve been to a church where the Kyrie and some other parts were sung and I enjoyed it. It was sincere, everyone joined in, solemn, etc. But I mean… It just really bothers me. During these parts we have singing in a different language (that for all we know, and I think I’m right, isn’tjust translating the english into zulu) and that has ululating and drums and is sung just by the choir for 5 minutes. I feel, to be honest, at those times seperated from the mass. It is a hard thing to explain. I dunno, can I feel this way? I have tried for 2 years not to let it bother me, but now that I learn more about my faith and actually ENJOY going to Mass, it started bothering me.

I want to bring it up, in private obviously, to possibly the liturgy officer of our parish. But I don’t want to scandalize the Church. The priest obviously doesn’t mind because he lets it be. But I honestly do believe I am not the only one who feels this way during mass. I don’t want to be seen as an ultra traditionalist prude of some sort. Not only that, but it’s very sacred ground, south africa and racial tensions are historically just very bad, and in the contemporary too. I don’t care about language or who it comes from, if it was in spanish or klingon, basically, i just want to be able to participate, and have everyone participate in the responses. Hymns themselves, the choir can go mad and ululate as much as they like.
 
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