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Edward_H
Guest
- It’s an act of charity to men and their wives, and their male children.
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svid2
Guest
- svid2 thinks it’s beautiful!
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Lost_Wanderer
Guest
@ #3
Sorry but a man should, well, man up and take control of his senses. Back in high school, would you have suggested I wear A-crowd clothes as not to incite bullies to pick on me or wouldn’t it be better to tell those bullies to lay off and respect me regardless of what I look like on the outside?
The same applies to women and the religious folks who think they dress “immodestly”.
Sorry but a man should, well, man up and take control of his senses. Back in high school, would you have suggested I wear A-crowd clothes as not to incite bullies to pick on me or wouldn’t it be better to tell those bullies to lay off and respect me regardless of what I look like on the outside?
The same applies to women and the religious folks who think they dress “immodestly”.
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vera_dicere
Guest
Men are also called to modestly! To put the onus on women is simple being misgyonistic while at the same time deminishing men and their ability to self control.
Men can be ruled by the flesh just as women can be, but men need to harden the cuss up and control themselves, to say a woman’s short shirt causes them to lust is not the woman’s fault, but that man’s!
Stop being babies and own up to your own sins instead of blaming women for it. Would you blame a baker for displaying nice cakes if an obese man ran in there and ate it all without paying?
Men can be ruled by the flesh just as women can be, but men need to harden the cuss up and control themselves, to say a woman’s short shirt causes them to lust is not the woman’s fault, but that man’s!
Stop being babies and own up to your own sins instead of blaming women for it. Would you blame a baker for displaying nice cakes if an obese man ran in there and ate it all without paying?
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Edward_H
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Calm down. You’re way too quick to throw down the easy, handy ‘misogynistic’ card. Like throwing down the racist card right out of the box.
Just take a look around you. The hugely disproportionate treatment of women as sex objects is all around you. The balance is shifting ever so slightly.
It’s also well known that men tend to be more prone to visual temptations, etc. etc.
I knew we’d have an early, out of the box, user of the word misogynistic.
This doesn’t in the slightest take away the responsibility of a man to master himself. Not a bit. But get real. A woman showing cleavage in Holy Mass is her own act of immodesty.
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Walking_Home
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Lost Wanderer:
:clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping:====
vera dicere:
:clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping:====
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Lost_Wanderer
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No offense but you need to put more thought in exactly how much fault lies in tying concepts such as ‘immodesty’/‘modesty’ with something superficial like human appearances.
Why don’t you get real? A woman’s cleavage is only a problem because you can’t put a lid on your hormones (and I’m saying this AS A GUY).
Honestly, both sides of this fashion debate are all the same. They try to make excuses for both superficiality and shallowness.
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Edward_H
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I actually first used the word “charity” above, which is the proper concept to dwell on here.
How is dressing sexily (showing 3/4+ of ones legs, showing midriff, showing cleavage, showing all shoulders and most back) an act of charity?
Answer that question calmly, sincerely, substantially, and you’ll begin to understand the core issue.
If we’re not acting out of charity, we’re not doing enough for Love.
If we’re’ showing cleavage out of vanity, or pride, that’s not an act of holiness.
Period.
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Edward_H
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If someone views this problem simply as one of “man up” and that a Catholic woman is free and clear to wear anything she wants, they are wrong.
There are 2 parts to this problem (not really 2 sides : >).
There is the problem of men being able to maintain custody of their eyes and imagination. This is a worthy struggle that is necessary for a man to master. Different men, often depending on their age and state of maturity, are at different points of struggle in this goal.
The second part of the problem/solution is with women. As an act of charity, women can help men in this struggle. This would be a free act, a gift to men, to not put a millstone around their neck, to not cause one to stumble.
Women, as do men, need to remember what freedom is. Freedom is not a right to do as one wants (to dress as one desires, for instance), but instead to do as one ought. This latter view of freedom is a Catholic understanding of freedom, which is very poorly grasped today.
Freedom is the power to do the good.
So when a Catholic woman decides to show skin, she really needs to be mindful of WHY she is doing what she is doing.
There are 2 parts to this problem (not really 2 sides : >).
There is the problem of men being able to maintain custody of their eyes and imagination. This is a worthy struggle that is necessary for a man to master. Different men, often depending on their age and state of maturity, are at different points of struggle in this goal.
The second part of the problem/solution is with women. As an act of charity, women can help men in this struggle. This would be a free act, a gift to men, to not put a millstone around their neck, to not cause one to stumble.
Women, as do men, need to remember what freedom is. Freedom is not a right to do as one wants (to dress as one desires, for instance), but instead to do as one ought. This latter view of freedom is a Catholic understanding of freedom, which is very poorly grasped today.
Freedom is the power to do the good.
So when a Catholic woman decides to show skin, she really needs to be mindful of WHY she is doing what she is doing.
- Is that act, that free act, an act of love?
- Is it motivated by love of God and neighbor?
- Is it instead motivated by vanity?
- Is it instead motivated by pride?
- is it motivated by love for God, and true love for neighbor?
- is it motivated by comfort seeking?
- is it motivated by lust?
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Walking_Home
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This post from another thread bears repeating. There is a lesson to be learned from Debora123’s experience with this “man”. So – keep this in mind --when someone spouts about the “weakness” of men. I am believing that mens “weakness” is primarily in not wanting to put in the effort to do something of about the “weakness” of their own moral fiber.
Debora123:
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MissRose73
Guest
I think it should be on both men and women to dress modestly especially when going to Mass. I would rather see a man wear a golf shirt and long shorts with a decent pair of shoes compared to a tee shirt and short denim shorts with a pair of sandals, or a woman wearing a sundress that has spaghetti straps that doesn’t even reach her knees with non dressy sandals compared to a woman who wears a short sleeve dress that reaches her knees or below with a pair of dressy sandals.
Also, both genders need to do a better job of controlling their thoughts, desires, and actions when others are not dressed to certain standards of modesty. I do not think it is fair to single out one gender to only dress modestly when both genders need to do so for the other.
What items you wear to the pool, work in the garden/yard, going to the bar, a party, the beach, sporting events, or a concert will not be appropriate for Mass, school/university, and/or even most business offices. Not all people keep that in mind, and that applies to both genders, and anyone who is old enough to pick their own clothes & dress themselves accordingly for the activity/place.
Also, it needs to be on parents to ensure their kids (that are toddler age and older) are dressed for Mass following common sense and modesty. That includes no: vulgar logo/worded shirts, short shorts, shorts that don’t even reach the top of the knees, tight clothes, revealing clothing, casual looking flip flops, trainers, track suits (tops/bottoms), spaghetti strapped shirts/dresses for girls, no tank tops for either gender, jeans with holes/too tight/very loose fitting etc.
Also, both genders need to do a better job of controlling their thoughts, desires, and actions when others are not dressed to certain standards of modesty. I do not think it is fair to single out one gender to only dress modestly when both genders need to do so for the other.
What items you wear to the pool, work in the garden/yard, going to the bar, a party, the beach, sporting events, or a concert will not be appropriate for Mass, school/university, and/or even most business offices. Not all people keep that in mind, and that applies to both genders, and anyone who is old enough to pick their own clothes & dress themselves accordingly for the activity/place.
Also, it needs to be on parents to ensure their kids (that are toddler age and older) are dressed for Mass following common sense and modesty. That includes no: vulgar logo/worded shirts, short shorts, shorts that don’t even reach the top of the knees, tight clothes, revealing clothing, casual looking flip flops, trainers, track suits (tops/bottoms), spaghetti strapped shirts/dresses for girls, no tank tops for either gender, jeans with holes/too tight/very loose fitting etc.
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LemonAndLime
Guest
Agreed, an act of charity towards those men who simply cannot help themselves. My heart bleeds for them, therefore to compensate for their animal lack of control, I shall cover myself until no skin shows.
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Lost_Wanderer
Guest
You want charity? How about actually dealing with the problem of loose hormones? And no, telling women to cover up is not the solution. That’s like a city mayor telling his people to get bank breaking, high-end security for their homes instead of actually doing his job and dealing with thieving scum.
See this where the shallowness of the Party of Modesty starts showing its true colors. You all automatically think that girls show those mentioned body parts out of pride or vanity.
Ever read 1 Samuel 16:7? There’s more to people than what your eyes tell you, way more. You can never tell a girl’s reason for dressing in any way. There are girls who may dress that way for the reason you suspect but there are just as many girls who dress like that for the heck of it. It’s their style. It’s part of their identity. How do you tell them apart from the vain ones? You can’t. So, if you want charity, I suggest you stop advocating for the right to judge (or even analyze) people just from the way they look.
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edwest2
Guest
A woman’s beauty is protected by modesty and she should be clothed with decency.
The decline in modest dress over the years is not good. Human dignity requires human decency.
Peace,
Ed
The decline in modest dress over the years is not good. Human dignity requires human decency.
Peace,
Ed
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mark_a
Guest
I wholeheartedly agree with the list.
Women dress immodestly.
Men ogle.
It’s the chicken and the egg.
Women dress immodestly.
Men ogle.
It’s the chicken and the egg.
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Walking_Home
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Edward_H
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LostWanderer.
You’ve missed my whole post dedicated to the 2 parts of the problem. And your language shows you’re not yet able to think calmly and substantially about the topic.
I am not telling women to cover up. I am proposing that they ask themselves why are they showing so much of themselves…is it an act of charity, or an act of vanity, indifference, rebellion, or vanity?
And above, I am also asking men why they look/lust?
I am trying to show that this problem is a problem shared by people of the body of Christ; each has moral responsibilities.
I am not judging (if you haven’t yet noticed wanderer, when someone else accuses someone else of judging it is almost always a sign of an argument slipping through their fingers), I am taking the problem a bit deeper than perhaps you want it to be taken. Into the moral realm. Instead of the pat, cheap, sociological, women studies realm. I am not interested in playing in that thin little space, where the questions, answers and concepts can all fit on the front side of a small post-it note.
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cviolette
Guest
All these modesty threads have started to get me paranoid. I went to a dinner tonight with some people from my parish and the priest was there. I started worrying during the dinner if my shirt was too low cut or pants too tight.
I went with my husband and like to look nice. My husband prefers that I dress sexy. I have toned things done but I don’t want to dress like I am 80 years old. I work hard to have a nice body and want to look good.
I do make sure that I dress more conservatively for mass but I don’t want to dress that way all the time.
I went with my husband and like to look nice. My husband prefers that I dress sexy. I have toned things done but I don’t want to dress like I am 80 years old. I work hard to have a nice body and want to look good.
I do make sure that I dress more conservatively for mass but I don’t want to dress that way all the time.
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Edward_H
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Well…why do you “want to look good”. Do you want to look good so that perhaps some other women will say…Gee…I don’t know how she does it all…she has kids, she works, she builds sail boats, she transcribes arabic…etc…how does she keep it all together. And in this way you invite questions…which you can then point to God in your life?
Or do you want to look good because you’re vain, you’re proud of yourself, you like the attention?
You of course don’t have to ask these questions…but these are the sorts of questions Catholics should occasionally ask themselves about why they do the things they do.
Are we doing things to bring others to God? to help them find peace and serenity?
Or are we doing things for more earthly and temporally limited reasons?
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