Top 5 Reasons People Think You Aren't Churches

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We believe in ONE, holy, catholic and apostolic Church, not 23, or 30,000.

She is one body, present in three places, the church militant on earth, triumphant in heaven and in suffering in purgatory.

We you say there are 22 Churches in communion with the Chuch of Rome one might infer that the Latin Church is more Catholic than the others. They are simply in communion. They recognize the Bishop of Rome as the visible head of the Church on earth, the vicar of Christ.
Yes, we believe in one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. That one Church is made up of the particular Church of Rome and those particular Churches in communion with the Church of Rome. This doesn’t come from me, it comes from the Catechism of the Catholic Church and from John Paul II’s Orientale Lumen.
 
I would like some definitions of what a rite is and what a church is?
The ritual Churches sui iuris were formerly called rites. The big change was in 1990.

In the 1983 Latin Canon Law (CIC), canon uses “Latin Church” and “ritual Church sui iuris” for Church and rite for liturgical rite, but sometimes uses rite for ritual Church.

In the 1990 CCEO Canon Law the terms rite and Church sui iuris are also defined, and are different. (e.g. rite is “liturgical, theological, spiritual and disciplinary patrimony, culture and circumstances of history,”). See below:

Can. 1 The canons of this Code regard only the Latin Church.

Can. 2 For the most part the Code does not define the rites which must be observed in celebrating liturgical actions. Therefore, liturgical laws in force until now retain their force unless one of them is contrary to the canons of the Code.

Can. 111
§1. Through the reception of baptism, the child of parents who belong to the Latin Church is enrolled in it, or, if one or the other does not belong to it, both parents have chosen by mutual agreement to have the offspring baptized in the Latin Church. If there is no mutual agreement, however, the child is enrolled in the ritual Church to which the father belongs.
§2. Anyone to be baptized who has completed the fourteenth year of age can freely choose to be baptized in the Latin Church or in another ritual Church sui iuris; in that case, the person belongs to the Church which he or she has chosen.

Can. 112
§1. After the reception of baptism, the following are enrolled in another ritual Church sui iuris:
1/ a person who has obtained permission from the Apostolic See;
2/ a spouse who, at the time of or during marriage, has declared that he or she is transferring to the ritual Church sui iuris of the other spouse; when the marriage has ended, however, the person can freely return to the Latin Church;
3/ before the completion of the fourteenth year of age, the children of those mentioned in nn. 1 and 2 as well as, in a mixed marriage, the children of the Catholic party who has legitimately transferred to another ritual Church; on completion of their fourteenth year, however, they can return to the Latin Church.
§2. The practice, however prolonged, of receiving the sacraments according to the rite of another ritual Church sui iuris does not entail enrollment in that Church.

Can. 846

§1. In celebrating the sacraments the liturgical books approved by competent authority are to be observed faithfully; accordingly, no one is to add, omit, or alter anything in them on one’s own authority.
§2. The minister is to celebrate the sacraments according to the minister’s own rite.

vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__PC.HTM

Eastern Canon Law (CCEO 1990)

Churches Sui Iuris and Rites

Canon 27

A group of Christian faithful united by a hierarchy according to the norm of law which the supreme authority of the Church expressly or tacitly recognizes as sui iuris is called in this Code a Church sui iuris.

Canon 28
  1. A rite is the liturgical, theological, spiritual and disciplinary patrimony, culture and circumstances of history of a distinct people, by which its own manner of living the faith is manifested in each Church sui iuris.
  2. The rites treated in this code, unless otherwise stated, are those which arise from the Alexandrian, Antiochene, Armenian, Chaldean and Constantinopolitan traditions.
intratext.com/IXT/ENG1199/_PS.HTM
 
You are simply wrong. To start with, there are not even 22 rites from which to choose, even if one were, counter to what the universal Church herself has chosen to do, if one were to refer to the 22 eastern Churches as rites. A rite is not an ecclesial body, it is a form of worship. There are 22 eastern Churches in communion with the Church of Rome. Together, these 23 particular Churches make up the one universal Church. The CCC itself, in section 814, refers to them as Churches.
The big problem (particularly the way you have addressed this matter) is that people get confused with the term “Church”/“church.” There is most certainly distinction between the Catholic Church and the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church or say the Ruthenian church of the Byzantine Rite of the Catholic Church.

We have been told again and again there is ONE Catholic Church and that is true. Within the Catholic Church are several rites and there are traditions or “churches.” On the Western Side of the Catholic Church there is the Latin/Roman Rite and the Latin/Roman (or even “Western”) church. The difficulty rests with many equating the Catholic Church to the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church, a condition largely caused by more than 99% of the greater Catholic Church’s membership being of the Latin Rite.
 
No, what Skeptic92 has stated is incorrect. There are not 22 particular rites in communion with the Church of Rome, there are 22 particular churches. This is the language used by the universal Church. Check the CCC, Section 814. It states, “Holding a rightful place in the communion of the Church there are also particular CHURCHES that retain their own traditions. The great richness of such diversity is not opposed to the Church’s unity.”
Well stated.

This link at EWTN breaks it down very nicely and in clear language.

ewtn.com/expert/answers/rites.htm

Peace,
 
We recently had a thread (dormant at present) about reasons people think you aren’t Catholic. I think a good follow-up would be to talk about reasons that people think your (EC) Church is “a rite” rather than a Church. (I don’t know if some reasons will duplicate the other thread or not. Personally, it’s fine with me if they do.)

Anyone care to start?
Five reasons?

1: Simple Ignorance.
2: none
3: none
4: none
5: none

The first Eastern Catholic parish I visited gave me a booklet that explained the terminology, listed all the Catholic Churches and Rites, their countries of origin, their Orthodox “mirror church” (if applicable), and their estimated membership worldwide. The title is “The One Church and the Communion of Churches”.

Read it online here:

ecpasocal.org/one-church
 
The thing is the word “Church” applies on so many levels. There is the one universal, holy, apostolic Church, the one mystical body of Christ. But it also scaled down to that every Bishop is one particular Church. So a lot of people think there’s one Catholic Church (which in a sense true) and that all these differences are “rites” rather that a different definition of “Church”.
 
The thing is the word “Church” applies on so many levels. There is the one universal, holy, apostolic Church, the one mystical body of Christ. But it also scaled down to that every Bishop is one particular Church. So a lot of people think there’s one Catholic Church (which in a sense true) and that all these differences are “rites” rather that a different definition of “Church”.
What about “churches” that are not connected with Rome such as Protestant ones. Should they properly be called “churches”?
 
We recently had a thread (dormant at present) about reasons people think you aren’t Catholic. I think a good follow-up would be to talk about reasons that people think your (EC) Church is “a rite” rather than a Church. (I don’t know if some reasons will duplicate the other thread or not. Personally, it’s fine with me if they do.)
:cool: 😉

I think one person gave the very same answer on the “Top 5 Reasons People Think You Aren’t Catholic” thread.
 
LegoGE1947, Vatican refers to the Reformation Christians as ecclesial communities because they are not properly Apostolic with the sacraments, so not churches.
 
LegoGE1947, Vatican refers to the Reformation Christians as ecclesial communities because they are not properly Apostolic with the sacraments, so not churches.
On television I have even heard of Mormans, and Jehovah Witnesses and Muslims referred to as “churches” Even a lot of Reformation Christians don’t refer to these as “churches”
 
What about “churches” that are not connected with Rome such as Protestant ones. Should they properly be called “churches”?
No, they are called Ecclesiastical Communities. From a Catholic/Orthodox point of view, a Church at the very least should have a bishop. Protestants do not have that.
 
The term Ecclesia in Latin or ἐκκλησία in Greek (which is what our Holy Mother Church calls them) have different connotations (implied meaning vs denotation which is the literal meaning) to Church in English. Church in English bring about a connotation of a separation like being a different denomination, whereas being different Rite of our Holy Mother Church shows a unity while not being exactly the same, they are apart of the same One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. This fact may not be carried by calling us all separate Churches due to the words connotations, whereas the word Rite carries different connotations. In Greek and Latin it may be proper to call them Ecclesia/ἐκκλησία, but it’s a different kettle of fish in English.
We are not separate Churches, but the Catholic Church is composed of Particular Churches in communion with each other and with the Pope of Rome as the ultimate ecclesial centre.

The fact is that there are Particular Eastern Catholic Churches that follow the SAME Byzantine Rite. The Armenian Catholics constitute their own Rite and their own Particular Church at the same time. So the two are different kettles of fish.

A Rite is simply a form of worship, a “spiritual culture” that expresses the same Faith and Catholic reality. The various Particular Catholic Churches follow different Rites - but it is entirely wrong to consider that a Rite and a Church form part of the same individual and Particular ecclesial reality. The Melkites and the UGCC have the same Byzantine Rite but are two Particular Churches (in union with each other).

Alex
Oblate OSB
 
We believe in ONE, holy, catholic and apostolic Church, not 23, or 30,000.

She is one body, present in three places, the church militant on earth, triumphant in heaven and in suffering in purgatory.

We you say there are 22 Churches in communion with the Chuch of Rome one might infer that the Latin Church is more Catholic than the others. They are simply in communion. They recognize the Bishop of Rome as the visible head of the Church on earth, the vicar of Christ.
Well, someone should tell Rome to stop referring to the Eastern Catholic Churches as such, rather than as rites.

And the Eastern Particular Catholic Churches are in communion with Rome or the Pope (and with him the Latin Church).

The fact is there is ONE Catholic Church and also Particular Churches. The Church, following the Eucharistic ecclesial model, is wherever there is a bishop, where the true faith is proclaimed and valid Sacraments celebrated. The fullness of the Church can therefore be in a town or other place that has its own Bishop. So the Church is as much present in such a town/locality as it is throughout the world.

Alex
 
No, they are called Ecclesiastical Communities. From a Catholic/Orthodox point of view, a Church at the very least should have a bishop. Protestants do not have that.
There is a tv evangelist named T.D.Jakes who claims to be a “bishop”
TDJakes.org. We have created a new gateway to Bishop T. D. Jakes, his Ministries and The Potter’s Church. Connect with us for partnership, prayer, donations, live …

www.tdjakes.org
 
I would, except I haven’t seen the pope on this forum in the last few months. Must be computer trouble. :hmmm:
Benedict has been busy lately what with his trips to Mexico and Cuba, and that little place in Italy (the Vatican)!:rolleyes:
 
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