Top Ten Remarkable “Catholic” Beliefs of Martin Luther

[Son_of_Niall]

1. Luther believed that crucifixes were a good and edifying thing.

1. Luther believed in the value of private confession.

1. Luther believed that good works were a necessary expression of the authenticity of true faith.

1. Luther believed that the sacrament of baptism regenerated and saved men.

1. Luther believed in the Real Presence in the Eucharist, in adoring the consecrated host, and that the sacrament of the Eucharist saved men.

1. Luther thought that contraception and married couples who deliberately avoided children were wicked and that the primary purpose of marriage was procreation.

For the other five:
patheos.com/blogs/davearmstrong/2015/08/top-ten-remarkable-catholic-beliefs-of-martin-luther.html

 

[ffg]

Number 5 is worded oddly.

Makes it look like married folks practicing NFP are wrong. That is not a teaching of the Church. Practicing NFP is not equal to - not being open to life.

One of my pet peaves with a subset of Catholics which unfortunately includes the pastor for this site, according to his own words a while back, are folks who don’t understand that NFP can in no way be classified as contraception. They like to use the very odd term ‘contraceptive mentality’.

I can somewhat understand this term as related to not completing the marital act as designed by God. However -

Married folks in their wisdom considering their life, not participating in the marital act is not sin. The CC does not teach breeding like bunnies.

As such, if 5 is worded accurately per Luther, I would say it is not Catholic to say married folks are ‘wicked’ when they are avoiding the marital act. To label them as wicked when there is the potential that sin is not present is not accurate and not Catholic.

Take care,

Mike

 

[Doormouse]

I got my marraiage annulled because my ex wife wouldn’t have children.

 

[HungerNThirst4R]

#6 is not completely true. While he did hold some what to the True Presence, it was not completely in conformity to the Church. Also if I remember correctly he wasn’t for Adoration either.

 

[ffg]

I got my marraiage annulled because my ex wife wouldn’t have children.

Not being on the same page with a spouse is different obviously.

Something that has been done poorly in the past - a part of marriage prep is to make sure folks understand that kids are one of the purposes of marriage and to understand what it means to be open to life.

Many people mistakenly think getting married is step one and discussing children comes later.

Out of curiosity, did she seem to change or did you know her thoughts on the matter going in?

We have 6 kids (on earth still) and when I hear ‘contraceptive mentality’ it’s frustrating because we are not sinning by not participating during fertile times.

We are on the same page. We are both willing to have more, raise more, love them, raise them well (so we are told), but are not actively trying.

In our situation, I can’t even say we’ve actually ever tried (specifically said ‘let’s have a kid’), just timing was right.

I have a sister who can’t have kids, watching her and her husband’s efforts for many years was tough, they tried everything before going the adoption route 3 times for three awesome kids.

I’ve always wanted to adopt, who knows maybe we will sometime.

Take care,

Mike

 

[R_H_Benson]

He also believed this:

“When the Mass will be turned on its head, we will have turned the papacy on its head! Because it is upon the Mass, like a rock, that the papacy is completely supported, with its monasteries, bishoprics, colleges, altars, ministries and doctrine… All this will tumble down when this sacrilegious and abominable Mass tumbles.”

-Martin Luther

Let’s not try to make Luther into our friend.

 

[truetofaith]

Not being on the same page with a spouse is different obviously.

Something that has been done poorly in the past - a part of marriage prep is to make sure folks understand that kids are one of the purposes of marriage and to understand what it means to be open to life.

Many people mistakenly think getting married is step one and discussing children comes later.

Out of curiosity, did she seem to change or did you know her thoughts on the matter going in?

We have 6 kids (on earth still) and when I hear ‘contraceptive mentality’ it’s frustrating because we are not sinning by not participating during fertile times.

We are on the same page. We are both willing to have more, raise more, love them, raise them well (so we are told), but are not actively trying.

In our situation, I can’t even say we’ve actually ever tried (specifically said ‘let’s have a kid’), just timing was right.

I have a sister who can’t have kids, watching her and her husband’s efforts for many years was tough, they tried everything before going the adoption route 3 times for three awesome kids.

I’ve always wanted to adopt, who knows maybe we will sometime.

Take care,

Mike

We adopted a baby girl from the Catholic Home Bureau …always loved her, & 31 yrs. later she’s married & we also have 2 beautiful grandchildren!

 

[Doormouse]

Not being on the same page with a spouse is different obviously.

Something that has been done poorly in the past - a part of marriage prep is to make sure folks understand that kids are one of the purposes of marriage and to understand what it means to be open to life.

Many people mistakenly think getting married is step one and discussing children comes later.

Out of curiosity, did she seem to change or did you know her thoughts on the matter going in?

We have 6 kids (on earth still) and when I hear ‘contraceptive mentality’ it’s frustrating because we are not sinning by not participating during fertile times.

We are on the same page. We are both willing to have more, raise more, love them, raise them well (so we are told), but are not actively trying.

In our situation, I can’t even say we’ve actually ever tried (specifically said ‘let’s have a kid’), just timing was right.

I have a sister who can’t have kids, watching her and her husband’s efforts for many years was tough, they tried everything before going the adoption route 3 times for three awesome kids.

I’ve always wanted to adopt, who knows maybe we will sometime.

Take care,

Mike

hello ffg

up to my marriage it was just excepted that we was to raise a family. But shortly after we got married, my wife got a promotion at work. Then she said that children were out of the question. the rest is history.

 

[JonNC]

#6 is not completely true. While he did hold some what to the True Presence, it was not completely in conformity to the Church. Also if I remember correctly he wasn’t for Adoration either.

He did not hold to philosophical expressions of the real presence - transubstantiation, consubstantiation, etc. - but he did hold to the doctrine of the real presence.

He was not opposed to Eucharistic adoration, though he did oppose the Corpus Christi procession.

Jon.

 

[JonNC]

For the other five:
patheos.com/blogs/davearmstrong/2015/08/top-ten-remarkable-catholic-beliefs-of-martin-luther.html

Thanks for the link - Think I’ll get Dave’s book.

Jon

 

[ffg]

hello ffg

up to my marriage it was just excepted that we was to raise a family. But shortly after we got married, my wife got a promotion at work. Then she said that children were out of the question. the rest is history.

Ugh, hurts the heart. Thank you for sharing your difficult story.

Hopefully it is a good witness to a young person to remember the marriage vow is more important than the work contract.

One can be a constant, a rock. The other can come and those contracts can go as fast as they come.

God Bless you.

 

[Doormouse]

it wasn’t nice, but life goes on. :thumbsup

and God bless you also

 

[benjohnson]

Thanks for the link - Think I’ll get Dave’s book.

Jon

Seconded - it would be useful as well to bring wayward Lutherans back into historic practice.

 

[Starwarsfan2]

For the other five:
patheos.com/blogs/davearmstrong/2015/08/top-ten-remarkable-catholic-beliefs-of-martin-luther.html

First off , he opposed Mary’s sinlessnes , and opposed prayers for the dead , second ALL Protestants believe works are fruits of faith , we and Luther just believe works do not save .

 

[JonNC]

First off , he opposed Mary’s sinlessnes , and opposed prayers for the dead , second ALL Protestants believe works are fruits of faith , we and Luther just believe works do not save .

Prayers for the dead were approved not only by Luther, but also in the Confessions.

As for the dead, since Scripture gives us no information on the subject, I regard it as no sin to pray with free devotion in this or some similar fashion: ‘Dear God, if this soul is in a condition accessible to mercy, be thou gracious to it.’ And when this has been done once or twice, let it suffice. (Luther’s Works, vol. 37, p. 369).

More proof, including the confession’s support of prayer for the dead, is offered her
weedon.blogspot.com/2006/09/prayer-for-dead.html?m=1

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Luther seems to support the belief that the Blessed Virgin was without sin:

a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary’s soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God’s gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin"
(Sermon: “On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God,” 1527)

She is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin- something exceedingly great. For God’s grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil.
(Personal {“Little”} Prayer Book, 1522)

It is a matter adiaphoron for Lutherans.

Jon

 

[TertiumQuid]

Luther seems to support the belief that the Blessed Virgin was without sin:
“a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary’s soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God’s gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin”
(Sermon: “On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God,” 1527)"

This quote comes up every once in a while, it used to come up more, but the collective unconscious of the Internet has shifted. “Seems” is a good choice of words. Actual Catholic scholarship (Grisar, Paulus) has shown this quote was from a less-than-accurate compilations of Luther’s sermons published during Luther’s lifetime, and that after it’s publication, this very quote was edited out of the text. In the 1528 version, the sermon now states that Scripture did not say anything about the conception of Mary.

She is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin- something exceedingly great. For God’s grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil. (Personal {“Little”} Prayer Book, 1522)

This 1522 quote is not reflective of Luther’s later lack of emphasis on Mary. You may find a few statements like this from Luther early on in his career, but they dissipate as his life went on. For instance, consider this statement from 1532, just 10 years later:

Mother Mary, like us, was born in sin of sinful parents, but the Holy Spirit covered her, sanctified and purified her so that this child was born of flesh and blood, but not with sinful flesh and blood.

It is a matter adiaphoron for Lutherans. Jon

Perhaps. I’m not familiar with Lutheranism enough to know if there’s a doctrinal statement saying that Mariology is a matter adiaphoron for Lutherans. I know that Luther came to a strong position in regard to the adoration of the saints, particularly Mary. Given Luther’s strong emphasis on the First Commandment, I would Luther would probably question motives in regard to Lutherans developing a Mariology.

 

[TertiumQuid]

Prayers for the dead were approved not only by Luther, but also in the Confessions.

Luther eventually denied the reality of purgatory, so saying Luther allowed prayers for the dead is not the same thing as Luther allowed prayers for the dead in purgatory. The basic thrust of Luther’s thought at times is that he won’t stop someone for praying for the dead, however sparsely, but linking it to purgatory and the ceremonies and practices that had made it an essential was to be avoided.

These sort of discussions typically go two ways:

1. There are those who argue how Luther rejected beliefs of the Catholic church, and is therefore to be avoided (Some Catholic scholarship till the early 1900’s, the average Catholic layman on the Internet).
2. There are those who argue that there are ways to see Luther’s thought in harmony with the Catholic church (some post Vatican 2 scholarship, some less-conservative Lutherans).

 

[TertiumQuid]

second ALL Protestants believe works are fruits of faith , we and Luther just believe works do not save .

This is a good clarification.

I’m curious as to what the pope will say or declare in 2017 since there have been theologians on both sides attempting to say that the classic protestant position on the relationship of faith and works can be harmonized with what the Catholic church teaches.

 

[Duane1966]

First off , he opposed Mary’s sinlessnes , and opposed prayers for the dead , second ALL Protestants believe works are fruits of faith , we and Luther just believe works do not save .

So if I am an atheist and I do charitable works, does that mean I have faith?