Torah vs Old Testament

[Solo1959]

Well, as someone one in this thread mentioned before, there were several sects of Judaism at the time. The Pharisees (a scholarly group whom many “mainstream” Jews at the time followed or identified with) would probably had the most comprehensive outlook on scripture; they would have studied and preached from the Torah, the Nevi’im (Prophets), and the Ketuvim (Writings, e.g. Psalms, Proverbs, maybe Sirach).
The Saduccees were a sect that only accepted the Torah as authoritative; therefore they didn’t take the other OT books seriously. In the Matthew 22, the Gospel explains that since the Torah doesn’t mention an afterlife or the resurrection, the Saduccees didn’t believe in it either. But Jesus is able to quote the Torah to prove that the resurrection is there.
The Essenes were an apocalyptic sect. They seemed to accept all of Hebrew Scripture, but focused on the Prophets and the coming of the Messiah. The Dead Sea Scrolls were actually written and studied by the Essenes. Now, some of the Dead Sea Scrolls are copies of books of the OT, some of the scriptures are not in the Bible (in fact, no one knew they existed until the Dead Sea Scrolls were found). Whether the Essenes believed these were divinely inspired or just used them for reference, no one knows.

Now, since the Dead Sea Scrolls are the earliest Hebrew texts of some OT books, they might be pretty close to the Scriptures Jesus read. Research has shown that there a couple of differences between the DSS and the Masoretic texts (the Hebrew Old Testament used by Jews, and the basis for many Christian versions of the OT). These differences, from what I’ve heard, actually make the Dead Sea texts more similar in wording to the Septuagint (the Greek translation of the OT from the 2nd century B.C.). This is interesting, since the Septuagint was often used in the Gospel when referencing the OT (e.g. Mt 1:22-23), and was used by Christians as their basis for the Old Testament. St. Jerome used the Septuagint to create the Latin OT.

Now, as to whether certain books were considered canonical by Jews in Jesus’ time is unclear. It’s probably reasonable to say that books accepted today by Jews were also accepted in Jesus’ time, except of course by Saduccees, who only accepted the Torah. Deuterocanonical books (accepted by Catholics and Orthodox, but not in Protestant or Jewish scriptures) are, frankly, up in the air. Books like Sirach, Wisdom, and Baruch were in the Septuagint, and thus probably accepted as canonical at the time they were written (about 200 years before Christ). They might have been accepted as Inspired Scripture in Jesus’ time, or they might have been just good texts of Jewish wisdom. A few decades after Jesus’ Resurrection, there is believed to have been a Jewish council (known as the Council of Jamnia) that outlined what texts were canonical for the Jewish Scriptures, excluding some books that are still accepted in Catholic and Orthodox canon.

Thank you very much for this information. Sounds like certainly at least much of what we have today was around back then. The difference is who accepted which writings.The examples you indicated reflect what would make an interesting thread elsewhere: What did the Jewish people of the time have in common to unite them all under the name Jewish? But that is for a different thread at some other time.

Thank you for what you mentioned about the Dead Sea Scrolls vs the Septuagint. It verifies the Preface to one of the Bibles I use, and it is supported by
Mr Flapatap:

Many scholars believe that He used the Septuagint.

. This has been a really interesting discussion and I expect to be studying this for a while.

 

[jerome_ky]

I’ll post this and hope it helps:

Torah: 5 Books of Moses, aka Pentateuch. Genesis thru Deuteronomy.
Tanakh: A Hebrew anagram for T(orah) [Law] N(evi’im) [Prophets] K(etuvim) [Writings]
Talmud: “Oral Law” as believed by the rabbis.

The Talmud is commentary, written by the rabbis, however the rabbis believe it is authoritative and was given to Moses on Mount Horeb.

Old Testament is a strictly Christian term. It refers to the books of the Bible prior to the Gospels. The Catholic Bible includes some books considered “apocryphal” by the Protestants (i.e., 1 & 2 Maccabees).

New Testament is the Gospels, Acts, epistles and Revelation.

When Jesus read from the book of Isaiah in the synagogue, what He was reading was the Tanakh.

Does this help or is it redundant?

 

[patrick457]

Fan of M Ricci did a very good explanation.
If I could complement his post with some incoherent mumblings of mine…

The Essenes were an apocalyptic sect. They seemed to accept all of Hebrew Scripture, but focused on the Prophets and the coming of the Messiah. The Dead Sea Scrolls were actually written and studied by the Essenes. Now, some of the Dead Sea Scrolls are copies of books of the OT, some of the scriptures are not in the Bible (in fact, no one knew they existed until the Dead Sea Scrolls were found). Whether the Essenes believed these were divinely inspired or just used them for reference, no one knows.

Yep, this is the majority opinion - that the Qumran community was an Essene one. However, since the 1990’s, other opinions have been proposed which does not necessarily equate the community with the Essenes: some propose that the community was actually a Zadokite/Sadducean one or even that they were Christians. Others think that the DSS were the product of various sources from Jerusalem. In this theory, some Jews hid the scrolls in the caves near Qumran while fleeing from the Romans during the destruction of Jerusalem.

Now, since the Dead Sea Scrolls are the earliest Hebrew texts of some OT books, they might be pretty close to the Scriptures Jesus read. Research has shown that there a couple of differences between the DSS and the Masoretic texts (the Hebrew Old Testament used by Jews, and the basis for many Christian versions of the OT). These differences, from what I’ve heard, actually make the Dead Sea texts more similar in wording to the Septuagint (the Greek translation of the OT from the 2nd century B.C.). This is interesting, since the Septuagint was often used in the Gospel when referencing the OT (e.g. Mt 1:22-23), and was used by Christians as their basis for the Old Testament.

Correct!
Note, however, that while some of the oldest Biblical fragments among the Dead Sea Scrolls correspond to the Septuagint, there are also manuscripts which support the Masoretic text, or so I’ve read. In fact, out of all the fragments discovered, about 35% agree with the Masoretic Text, while 5% agree with the Septuagint. There is also another 5% of fragments which belong to the proto-Samaritan category; i.e. those agreeing to the Samaritan version of the Torah. The rest fall into two categories: those inconsistent in agreeing with other known types, and those that diverge significantly from all other known readings (i.e. a Qumran-unique textual variant).

One proposal is that the Septuagint and the standardized Masoretic are actually the descendants of two separate textual traditions (you know, kind of like the various textual families that the Greek New Testament has). The original Septuagint provided a reasonably accurate record of an early Semitic textual variant, now lost, that differed from the ancestors of what became the Masoretic text.

Sometimes there are some people who tout the Septuagint at the expense of the Masoretic, but it seems that both of them have ancient roots; personally I think that one version is not really ‘superior’ to the other one, rather that both these versions complement each other.

St. Jerome used the Septuagint to create the Latin OT.

Not really; he did use the LXX as one of his sources (for example the so-called Gallican Psalter), but he also used manuscripts in Hebrew/Aramaic.

Now, as to whether certain books were considered canonical by Jews in Jesus’ time is unclear. It’s probably reasonable to say that books accepted today by Jews were also accepted in Jesus’ time, except of course by Saduccees, who only accepted the Torah.

Of course, there are a handful of books which are now in the canon which were still up in debate by that time, but we won’t go further into that for the present.
Suffice it to say that there was a time when Proverbs along with Ecclesiastes were “withdrawn” because they were long ago thought to be mere “parables and not from the Scriptures.” Along similar lines, there were discussions in Talmudic literature on whether or not certain books ‘defile the hands’, such as Esther, Sirach, Song of Songs, and Ecclesiastes. However, by the 3rd century AD, the above works, with the exception of Sirach, were finally accepted without dispute in the Jewish canon.

 

[patrick457]

Deuterocanonical books (accepted by Catholics and Orthodox, but not in Protestant or Jewish scriptures) are, frankly, up in the air. Books like Sirach, Wisdom, and Baruch were in the Septuagint, and thus probably accepted as canonical at the time they were written (about 200 years before Christ). They might have been accepted as Inspired Scripture in Jesus’ time, or they might have been just good texts of Jewish wisdom. A few decades after Jesus’ Resurrection, there is believed to have been a Jewish council (known as the Council of Jamnia) that outlined what texts were canonical for the Jewish Scriptures, excluding some books that are still accepted in Catholic and Orthodox canon.

Ah, the Council of Jamnia.
The idea that there was a council in Yavneh/Jamnia, where a school of Halakha (Jewish religious law) existed, was only officially formulated by German historian Heinrich Graetz in 1871 based on what he thought was clues within the Mishna and the Talmud. This idea became popular for a while, but came increasingly into question from the 1960’s onwards. In particular, later scholars noted that none of Graetz’s sources actually mentioned books that had been withdrawn from a canon, and questioned the whole premise that the discussions of the rabbis in Jamnia were about canonicity at all.

Today, there is no scholarly consensus as to when the Jewish canon was set; a few fix it as early as the Hasmonean dynasty (37 BC-AD 92), while others point toward a later era、such as somewhere during the late Tannaitic (early 3rd century AD) and early Amoraic periods (3rd-4th century).

The Hebrew Bible most likely only reached its present form after decades of consolidation, discussion, decisions, and even opposition, long after Christianity and rabbinic Judaism became separate from one another - and long after the hypothetical Synod of Yavneh.

Well, since we’re talking about the Dead Sea Scrolls, it would be best to look at the frequenct of Biblical books found in the Judean Desert (note that the numbers do not necessarily mean that most of the manuscripts numbered are full copies or even well-preserved fragments; in most cases, there are only small remains). Those in bold are part of the Torah, while those in italics are apocryphal, while those underlined are Deuterocanonicals (here’s an inventory of the books found within the caves of Qumran):

1. *]Psalms - 36/39 found at Qumran + 2 from Masada + 1 from Nahal Hever, for a total of 39/40
   *]Deuteronomy - 30 from Qumran + 1 from Nahal Hever + 1 from Masada + 1 from Wadi al-Murabba’at, for a total of 33
   *]Genesis - 20 from Qumran + 1 from south of Masada + 2 or 3 from Murabba’at, for a total of 23/24
   *]Isaiah - 21 from Qumran + 1 from Murabba’at, for a total of 22
   ]Exodus - 17 found at Qumran + 1 from Murabba’at, for a total of 18
   ]Jubilees - 14/15 from Qumran
   ]Leviticus - 14/15 from Qumran + 2 from Masada, for a total of 16/17
   ]1 Enoch - 11/12 from Qumran (+ some possible fragments in Greek)
   *]Numbers - 8 from Qumran + 2 from Nahal Hever + 1 from Murabba’at, for a total of 11
   *]Minor Prophets (Hosea to Malachi) - 8 from Qumran + 1 from Murabba’at + 1 from Nahal Hever, for a total of 10
   *]Daniel - 8 from Qumran
   *]Ezekiel - 6 from Qumran + 1 from Masada, for a total of 7
   *]Jeremiah - 6 from Qumran
   *]Job - 6 from Qumran (4 Hebrew texts + 2 Aramaic targumim)
   *]1-2 Samuel - 4 from Qumran
   
   That was the top fifteen. The rest are:
   
   1. *]Tobit - 5 from Qumran (4 in Aramaic + 1 in Hebrew)
      *]Ruth - 4 from Qumran
      *]Song of Songs - 4 from Qumran
      *]Lamentations - 4 from Qumran
      *]Sirach/Ben Sira - 2 from Qumran + 1 from Masada, for a total of 3
      *]1-2 Kings - 3 from Qumran
      *]Judges - 3 from Qumran
      *]Joshua - 2 from Qumran
      *]Proverbs - 2 from Qumran
      *]Ecclesiastes - 2 from Qumran
      *]1-2 Chronicles - 1 from Qumran
      *]Ezra-Nehemiah - 1 from Qumran (only Ezra; none of Nehemiah)
      ]Epistle of Jeremiah (usually collated with Baruch in Catholic Bibles) - 1 from Qumran (in Greek)
      ]Psalm 151 - 1 from Qumran (within the Psalms Scroll from Cave 11, aka 11QPsa/11Q5)
      *]Esther - 0

 

[quiet1]

Has anyone asked a rabbi?

 

[RonTheNewJew]

Here is what I have learned about Torah. It means “law” or “rules of living,” etc. The Sacred writings of Torah were, from an historical perspective, kept "in the sides (not outside) of the Ark, along with the two tables of stone upon which the finger of YudHaWavHeh, wrote the Ten Words (really, the headlines of the Ten Commandments.)

The Statutes and Judgements, civil and ordinancial laws, were given to Moses by word of God’s mouth, and Moses wrote them all down as God dictated them. They were meant to explain how God wants His followers to keep His Ten Commandments. They also, through God’s esablishment of annual special times each year, called “My feasts and sabbaths,” were given by God to Moses to teach Israel the entire Plan of Salvation in it’s various themes that trace through the Plan, from when God first gave that Plan to Adam and Eve after sin, on through the sacricicial system of animal sacrifices, then to Christ’s sacrifice, on through the suffering of God’s commandment-observant followers for their faithfulness, and on to the end when Christ returns to take those who suffered to follow Him, home.

In many ways, I think, when I became a Christian, I became what John, the Revelator, in Rev. 2, vs. 9, and 3, vs. 9, when quoting Jesus, said Jesus knew of the suffering the churches of Smyrna and Philadelphia, and John applied Jesus’ words to those two Churches. He also implied, verbally, that Jesus was aware of the others “who are not true Jews.” Jesus had replaced man’s promises of obedience to the same Law and the prophets, with His better promises which He ratified by His own Sacrifice.

In Matthew, chapter 23, Jesus, while decrying the hypocrisy of the rabbi’s and scribes and pharisees, also said to His followers, “When they (rabbi’s and other teachers) sit in Moses’ seat in the synagogues and teach, listen to them and do what they say.” He was passing on to His disciples what He would ask them to teach to the rest of the world. He traveled to Jerusalem after observing the annual festivals and sabbaths at Capernaum for nearly one year, to become the Lamb slain to ratify the New Testament which was the change from man’s promises, which many Jews felt they had accompished through animal sacrifices and attendant ceremonies. The New Covenant, given in Exodus, chapter 34, was passed on, through His disciples, to everyone on earth.

I agree with those who say that when Jesus walked the earth, at least the New Testament had not been put together yet. I believe that scribes wrote what the Apostles said and did, but the texts were later put together. The only New Covenant He referred to was the one He and His Father gave Israel as recorded in Exodus, 34.His Sacrifice made it possible for people to desire to keep it, which those Jews who did not see Jesus in the animal sacrifices, did not in fact keep. Their “rabbi’s” spoke things which scribes wrote down and passed on in what became known as the Talmud and other rabbinical writings. Not the written Torah, given to Moses. But, their own ideas, some of which caused the Jewish people to actually break the Law God gave to Moses.

The earthly Jews had not done it. Jesus did what mere human beings could never do, with or without the slaying of animals as burnt offerings. The New Testament is an unfolding of the “Old,” which was all that existed when Jesus tabernacled with our first Messiah-believing spiritual parents,the Jews, which He became on of, Himself.

Peace, in Christ’s name

 

[Rustyxcv]

Greetings!
Or perhaps given the topic I should say SHALOM!
– It has been very informative to read all the fine posts on this string. Let me add another “color” to the many fine things others have said.
– The Torah holds pride of place among all the Jewish sacred writings. Its five books of Moses are almost always written on a single scroll. It is the most important reading (and, unless I am mistaken, it is the** required reading) of the weekly Sabbath service. In most synagogues today, the scroll of the Torah is carried around the congregation so that worshippers may reverence or kiss it as it passes, at the time of the Torah reading.
– An analogous practice is found in many Catholic churches that have a Book of the Gospels separate from the standard lectionary. This book is carried in procession, placed on the altar, and elevated and processed again at the Gospel reading. Only the priest or deacon may read the Gospel passage for the day. By contrast, any appropriate member of the congregation may participate in the Torah reading, though usually it is done by the rabbi or the cantor.
– Interestingly, the Word of God, Christ himself, in the flesh, is housed in a tabernacle in a Roman Catholic church (usually behind and above the altar – though the Good Lord only knows where it might be located in a “new and improved” church – excuse me, I mean “faith community”). In a synagogue, likewise, the “Word of God,” that is, the Torah, is kept in a locked tabernacle in the wall behind the central speaker’s platform (or “bima”) – there being no altar in a synagogue.
– Torahs are all properly written by hand on lamb-skin parchment. Great care is taken in their preparation. The letters of each kind are counted to be sure that the new copy is exactly correct and a true copy. If I am not mistaken, a damaged or spoiled Torah must be burnt or buried in the ground. It can’t be simply tossed in the back of a closet or put out for the yard sale. Mind you, it is not an object of worship, though it is a vehicle for worship. The Torah is truly given a kind of reverence and care rarely seen with the texts of other faiths.
– Again, Shalom! – Rusty

 

[donanobis]

I have learned so much from all these answers!

Just want to share the answer I received from the St.Paul Center of Biblical Theology which pretty much reiterates previous answers.

Thank you for your question! I am … …, a research assistant to Dr. Hahn. Due to the large amount of emails he receives he has asked me to respond to yours.

The Torah is literally translated “Law” and it is a synonym for the Penteteuch, the first five books of the Old Testament. When Jesus read from the Torah in the Temple, He was indeed reading from the same Old Testament we have today. He did not always read from the Torah alone; for example, we know He read from the prophet Isaiah as well.

The Talmud did not really exist during Jesus’ time. It is not Scripture so it is very different from the Torah. The Tamud could be described as Tradition for the Jews. It is a collection of the rabbinic teachings and interpretations on the Law and the Prophets. The following is a link to a standard explanation: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talmud

I hope this helps… If you have any further questions please do not hesitate to ask.

May God bless you abundantly!
In Christ,

---

St. Paul Center for Biblical Theology

dona