Torn, and would rather not be

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Le_Cracquere

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For years now, I have been havering between the Catholic Church and Protestantism, and have been wholly unable to come to rest at either pole. Always and forever, I investigate one and find something that makes me say, “but that can’t be right!” Than I look into the other, and find something that makes me say the exact same thing.

It’s enough to drive a fellow to despair: any way you turn, at some point, your gut tells you to run far, FAR, away from it. But one of them has to be true! And what I dread most of all is becoming comfortable with not coming to any conclusion: with tabling any decision in particular, and becoming one of those self-congratulating “seekers” who’ve absolved themselves of any commitment on the behalf of truth.

If anyone has the time & inclination, I’d beg for your prayers in steeling myself, focussing my vision, and deciding on something–anything, almost. At the very least, I’d be eternally grateful for something approaching a sign or indication that I should choose one way, rather than another. Anything to break the tie. Anything to avoid becoming comfortable with the tie. Anything to avoid becoming self-congratulating and silly about it.
 
May our dear Lord give you the consolation and peace of finding His truth.
God bless you for your striving spirit.
It requires much grace to continue striving when you remain perplexed.
I’m sure that your faithfulness in seeking His truth is a delight to God.

Heavenly Father, in the Name of Your beloved Son Jesus please bring your faithful traveler to know where You lead and to find a home in the fullness of faith and truth.
 
I have lifted up prayers for you, my friend. May God lead you in the direction that is right and true! 😉
 
Sounds like you and me are in the same boat. It certainly isn’t a great way to be…
“Forever learning and never coming to the knowledge of the truth” rings bells in my ears.
I’m not too sure how prayers work either. Sometimes they appear to be answered then other times you’re left standing out in the rain, as such. Religion is very confusing to say the least! I just can’t seem to get a grasp of it. I look in admiration to people who appear to have it all together.
I wish you well on your search.

Michelle
 
Le_Cracquere said:
For years now, I have been havering between the Catholic Church and Protestantism, and have been wholly unable to come to rest at either pole. Always and forever, I investigate one and find something that makes me say, “but that can’t be right!” Than I look into the other, and find something that makes me say the exact same thing.

It’s enough to drive a fellow to despair: any way you turn, at some point, your gut tells you to run far, FAR, away from it. But one of them has to be true! And what I dread most of all is becoming comfortable with not coming to any conclusion: with tabling any decision in particular, and becoming one of those self-congratulating “seekers” who’ve absolved themselves of any commitment on the behalf of truth.

If anyone has the time & inclination, I’d beg for your prayers in steeling myself, focussing my vision, and deciding on something–anything, almost. At the very least, I’d be eternally grateful for something approaching a sign or indication that I should choose one way, rather than another. Anything to break the tie. Anything to avoid becoming comfortable with the tie. Anything to avoid becoming self-congratulating and silly about it.
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Catholicism can be defined. You can find the doctrines, the things taught as truth by Catholic Church and know what they are. You can sort of put it all in a basket and say there that is it. There is always mystery, things that are impossible to intellectually grasp, because we are finite creatures with limited ability to understand and God is infinite.

You can not define Protestantism. There is no one body of doctrine on which the numerous versions of Protestants agree. Some say there are seven sacraments, some two and some none. Some say you are saved by having a born again experience. Others say with Cathloics that being born again is being baptized. Some say you can lose your salvation and others say it can not happen. There are Unitarian, Jehovahs witnesses, Mormons, all with Protestant roots who say Jesus was not God and there is no Trinity. Some baptize infants and others say this should never be done. The list goes on.

So what does it mean to be Protestant? Essentially it means not Catholic. Other than that it is a mishmash of contradiction and confusion.

You are not faced with two choices, Catholic or Protestant. You are faced with Catholic or some denomination or nondenomination within Protestantism.

I know a man who was raised Catholic and became convinced Catholicsm was false. He became Protestant, a version that rebaptized him. He left that group and eventually was rebaptized three or four times. He goes from one group to another, each move comes when he realizes that there is a hole or gap in the theology of his current church. Each move is an attempt to fix some error.

I have worked at the same company for 27 years. Most of the employees are Protestant. Every one of them has changed denominations at least once. Two of them belonged to some version of a Reformed church and were rock solid Calvinists. They both left and went to different new churches. Others went to a store front Baptist Church. They started using space in a Dutch Reformed church. The Baptist minister got sick and retired. The two groups merged. Then they struggled trying to harmonize their doctrinal disparities. They unmerged. Some of the Baptists joined a large local Baptist church. It disaffilliated itself from the Baptist church and no longer calls itself Baptist. They are Protestants, but like you are on a neverending search.

Surely there are many Protestants who are not so unstable, who go to the same church all their lives. Only God knows the secret of the soul, but it seems to me that many Protestants I know live lives of grace and are witnesses of the love of Christ. I admire them.

Nevertheless a person torn between C or P is not faced simply with two options, one or the other. If the choice is P then one needs to choose which kind of P.
 
MLP67 said:
Sounds like you and me are in the same boat. It certainly isn’t a great way to be…
“Forever learning and never coming to the knowledge of the truth” rings bells in my ears.
I’m not too sure how prayers work either. Sometimes they appear to be answered then other times you’re left standing out in the rain, as such. Religion is very confusing to say the least! I just can’t seem to get a grasp of it. I look in admiration to people who appear to have it all together.
I wish you well on your search.

Michelle
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Religion can be confusing, but it is not supposed to be. God does not intend to confuse us. Confusion comes from the enemy.

Sometimes when we seem confused there are too many ideas to deal with. When that happens one way to resolve it is to strip away all the superfluous stuff and get to the most fundamental essence of the thing.

The most important thing for us all to know is that we are loved. God loves you. God made you to be loved. It is the reason you exist. This fundamental truth is the first and most important thing to know and sometimes it is difficult to believe.

Our consciences tell us we have not always been what we ought to be. If we are loved we expect to feel it. Sometimes we feel abandoned or alone instead.

We do not know God loves us by what we feel. We know God loves us by what He did.

With this most fundamental knowledge as a foundation in religion, we can begin to build on it with another fundamental piece. We do not build the thritieth floor on the foundation.

With knowledge that we are loved the essential piece is there. The next piece is peace. Mary Magdalen loved Jesus. He chose her to be the first person to see Him raised from the dead. What were His words to her?

She loved Him and was mourning. She had love and lacked peace. His words to her are to you. Receive this peace from Him. Be at peace, not for a moment, but always, knowing it is God’s will for you.

When you know God loves you and are at peace you are ready to see through the confusion, to see what truth God will show you.

God bless you.
 
Thankyou Grandfather for your wise words. I shall certainly spend some time meditating on what you have written.
I stumble in many areas when it comes to understanding God, the truth, etc but i fall well short of the line of understanding when it comes to apparent contradictions within the bible, for example:
“And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.” (2KI 2:11)
“No man hath ascended up to heaven but he that came down from heaven, … the Son of Man.” (JOH 3:13)
and…

“And the Lord spake to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend.” (EXO 33:11)
“For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.” (GEN 32:3)
“No man hath seen God at any time.” (JOH 1:18)
“And he said, Thou canst not see my face; for there shall no man see me and live.” (EXO 33:20)
These are just two of many verses that seem to contradict one another? Can you shed any light on this issue for me.
Many thanks
Michelle
 
MLP67 said:
These are just two of many verses that seem to contradict one another? Can you shed any light on this issue for me.
Many thanks
Michelle
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Maybe. I can not resolve all the seeming contradictions, but could only offer speculations and they are probably pretty shakey explanations. For example, no one has seen God’s face and can live. The idea is that His glory is so great that nothing can come before it without being annihilated. It is like in the physical dimension trying to approach the sun with a satelite. The solar wind destoys anything that comes near.

Yet we believe in heaven the saints see God face to face while we have the imagery from Moses and the angel icons on the ark of the covenant that has angels hiding their faces with two wings. So how could human souls behold this great glory, even in heaven? Only if they participated in God’s nature.

Jesus came to earth and took on our nature soe that He could raise us to heaven and share divine nature. We find this expressed in Peter’s letter.

But how could Moses see God and live to tell about it on earth?

We know people have had what we call near death experiences. Some claim they died and had experiences and were sent back here. I came very close myself. Maybe this happened to Moses.

We can go from one apparent scriptural contradiction to another and come up with maybes. I don’t worry too much about them, because I don’t see the Bible as a document to be taken literally. There is a lot of allegory there. Jesus tells parables.

There are greater problems than these. We accept things on faith that are not comprehensible. We believe God took on human nature, died, was resurrected in a body that could walk through walls into locked rooms, eat solid food, vanish in front of men He had been walking along with and took His body with Him to heaven where He metaphorically sits at the Father’s right hand, where He has been for all eternity.

God is spirit. In the spiritual dimension there is no time or space. There are no discreet parts. Spirit does not have eyes, ears, toes, hair, a hand that is here and a heart that is there. How can there be these body parts where there is no space, a here and there?

We have to come to the realization that there are things beyond our comprehension, that we can not know. Jesus told His apostles there is much He would like to tell them that they could not yet bear (udnerstand). Our finite intellects just can’t grasp them.

That is why Jesus taught in analogy. The kingdom of heaven is LIKE unto a housewife who lost a silver coin, a farmer who sowed seed. These are things we understand, because they are in our reality and we have experienced them. Allegory is never perfect. It breaks down and leaves questions behind.
 
Lord, may Le Cracquere know that the only true religion is Catholicism, and that it is the only religion established by You Yourself. Do not let him/her be deceived by heretical systems. Mother Mary, I recommend him/her to you. Lead him/her to the full truth which is contained only in the Catholic Church. Amen.
 
grandfather said:
Maybe. I can not resolve all the seeming contradictions, but could only offer speculations and they are probably pretty shakey explanations. For example, no one has seen God’s face and can live. The idea is that His glory is so great that nothing can come before it without being annihilated. It is like in the physical dimension trying to approach the sun with a satelite. The solar wind destoys anything that comes near.

Yet we believe in heaven the saints see God face to face while we have the imagery from Moses and the angel icons on the ark of the covenant that has angels hiding their faces with two wings. So how could human souls behold this great glory, even in heaven? Only if they participated in God’s nature.

Jesus came to earth and took on our nature soe that He could raise us to heaven and share divine nature. We find this expressed in Peter’s letter.

But how could Moses see God and live to tell about it on earth?

We know people have had what we call near death experiences. Some claim they died and had experiences and were sent back here. I came very close myself. Maybe this happened to Moses.

We can go from one apparent scriptural contradiction to another and come up with maybes. I don’t worry too much about them, because I don’t see the Bible as a document to be taken literally. There is a lot of allegory there. Jesus tells parables.

There are greater problems than these. We accept things on faith that are not comprehensible. We believe God took on human nature, died, was resurrected in a body that could walk through walls into locked rooms, eat solid food, vanish in front of men He had been walking along with and took His body with Him to heaven where He metaphorically sits at the Father’s right hand, where He has been for all eternity.

God is spirit. In the spiritual dimension there is no time or space. There are no discreet parts. Spirit does not have eyes, ears, toes, hair, a hand that is here and a heart that is there. How can there be these body parts where there is no space, a here and there?

We have to come to the realization that there are things beyond our comprehension, that we can not know. Jesus told His apostles there is much He would like to tell them that they could not yet bear (udnerstand). Our finite intellects just can’t grasp them.

That is why Jesus taught in analogy. The kingdom of heaven is LIKE unto a housewife who lost a silver coin, a farmer who sowed seed. These are things we understand, because they are in our reality and we have experienced them. Allegory is never perfect. It breaks down and leaves questions behind.
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Thankyou so much for sharing your thoughts. After work today i am going to spend time meditating over what you have written.
God bless
Michelle
 
Many thanks to all for their prayers and kind thoughts.

Grandfather, I also appreciate your explanations and insight. Fortunately, Catholics and Protestants alike are blessed with keen thinkers such as you, who can ably expose the holes in the other side’s arguments. Unfortunately, hearing them all out can leave one looking at gaping holes on all sides! I can only hope & pray for the grace to see a greater wholeness on one side or the other.

P.S.: I take your point about Protestant denominations, but that’s more a consequence of their different definitions of “church.” In practice, it’s pretty easy to see when the Protestants are talking about “churches” as in denominations, and when they’re talking about the Church Universal:
  • In the latter sense, they usually consider Nicene Christians in general, including Catholics, to constitute the collective Church.
  • In the former sense, they acknowledge many denominational “churches,” of which Catholicism is merely the largest.
But in either sense, they don’t consider the Catholic/Protestant distinction to be between a Church on the one hand, and a bunch of little churches on the other … not by their definitions, at least. That’s a minor point, but one that results in a lot of talking past one another.
 
Holy Spirit of God I entrust Le Cracquere to Your wisdom and guidance.
 
Le_Cracquere said:
For years now, I have been havering between the Catholic Church and Protestantism, and have been wholly unable to come to rest at either pole. Always and forever, I investigate one and find something that makes me say, “but that can’t be right!” Than I look into the other, and find something that makes me say the exact same thing.

It’s enough to drive a fellow to despair: any way you turn, at some point, your gut tells you to run far, FAR, away from it. But one of them has to be true! And what I dread most of all is becoming comfortable with not coming to any conclusion: with tabling any decision in particular, and becoming one of those self-congratulating “seekers” who’ve absolved themselves of any commitment on the behalf of truth.

If anyone has the time & inclination, I’d beg for your prayers in steeling myself, focussing my vision, and deciding on something–anything, almost. At the very least, I’d be eternally grateful for something approaching a sign or indication that I should choose one way, rather than another. Anything to break the tie. Anything to avoid becoming comfortable with the tie. Anything to avoid becoming self-congratulating and silly about it.
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Why not investigate something that is neither? (Pls see jw.org)
An honest study of God’s Word, the Bible and a sincere yearning for the truth will guide you in the right path, God’s path. There’s only one true God so He cannot approve of all the thousands of religions being practiced throughout the world. He never has. But He let’s mankind know what His requirements are for worshiping Him in His Word. Please don’t give up on it!🙂
 
Le_Cracquere said:
P.S.: I take your point about Protestant denominations, but that’s more a consequence of their different definitions of “church.” In practice, it’s pretty easy to see when the Protestants are talking about “churches” as in denominations, and when they’re talking about the Church Universal:
  • In the latter sense, they usually consider Nicene Christians in general, including Catholics, to constitute the collective Church.
  • In the former sense, they acknowledge many denominational “churches,” of which Catholicism is merely the largest.
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Indeed.
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Trishie said:
May our dear Lord give you the consolation and peace of finding His truth.
God bless you for your striving spirit.
It requires much grace to continue striving when you remain perplexed.
I’m sure that your faithfulness in seeking His truth is a delight to God.

Heavenly Father, in the Name of Your beloved Son Jesus please bring your faithful traveler to know where You lead and to find a home in the fullness of faith and truth.
Click to expand...
Amen.
 
Le Cracquere ~ I couldve written your post! I have struggled with many of the points you stated in your original post. I wanted to share a snippet from a website I visited that helped me…

Copied & Pasted from beginningcatholic.com/church-authority.html
“The source & nature of Church authority is one of the major issues that beginning Catholics have to examine and come to terms with.
The Catholic Church makes an amazing claim: it teaches, governs, and sanctifies with the authority of Christ himself.
Catholics believe that this gift of Church authority is one of the jewels that Christ has given to us as an aid to our salvation”
END QUOTE

So what sets us apart from protestants = CHURCH AUTHORITY.

I have not gone through RCIA yet so I cannot receive communion or go to confession at this point in my journey. Ive spent much of my childhood and young adulthood feeling “incomplete” because I am not fully Catholic. I was stressed about it for many years because I felt like an outsider while my family received their sacraments.

At times, I considered abandoning my Catholic journey and attending a Protestant church because I felt 100% accepted & complete in their teachings. While my thinking is faulty - in my mind not having to “become protestant” lifted the heavy burden of not being “fully Catholic” Does that make sense?

I now understand Church teachings & understand that I am complete as a person. The sacraments are vehicles to fully receive the graces God has planned for my life.

It is a journey. Try to put your faith journey aside for a while until you have more clarity and focus. You know all you need to know about the reformation, about the opposing view points from each side. Dont force yourself to make a decision, step back, take a break, pray!

Church Authority is one jewel on our faith journey - There are many many jewels that Christ bestows on us during our lifetime…

Ill be praying for you 👍
 
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