Torn between two churches!

[passer_by]

It is not a double standard. When something is worded incorrectly be it by a Catholic or non-Catholic, the fraternal thing is to clarify.

It is wrong to encourage a person to enter the Catholic Church for the wrong reasons. The ends do not justify the means.

I understand.

I felt that since you didn’t say anything much wrong about the Baptist Church and seem to defend it because a person might enter Catholicism through the Baptist Church, you might be saying in one way that the end does justify the means.

But I think I see what you mean.

 

[ProVobis]

What the Holy Father wants Catholics to understand is that we cannot deal with Protestantism as Trent did, because this is not the same community. He explained this very well. He said that this was a very different community and that it is very difficult for us (Catholics) to deal with it appropriately until we have a better understanding of it. He refers to it as a “phenomenon difficult to understand.” He’s not claiming to understand it’s nature today. He’s just saying that it’s not the same as that of the time of Trent.

I’m not going to defend the argument that the omnipresent Almighty is not present everywhere but a “community” can be family or even a marriage as well. That the Church now allows (and allowed it conditionally even prior to Vatican II) mixed marriages is evidence enough that Protestantism (and other religions for that matter) have changed in the eyes of the Church since the time of Trent. I suppose all is well as long as religion isn’t being discussed within such communities but perhaps that brings us to the possible realization that religion doesn’t matter in our lives as much as it did during the time of Trent either. Which may be a bigger problem for religion in general. Just thinking out loud here.

 

[JReducation]

I understand.

I felt that since you didn’t say anything much wrong about the Baptist Church and seem to defend it because a person might enter Catholicism through the Baptist Church, you might be saying in one way that the end does justify the means.

But I think I see what you mean.

If I had a Baptist telling me that the Eucharis is simply bread, I would clarify his misunderstanding, because he’s talking to me about it and what he is saying is mistaken.

However, it would be terribly wrong of me to tell Baptists to convert to Catholicism because thier pastor is an unbeliever. The pastor may not believe in a lot of things and some of his disbeliefs may be right on the money. He may not believe in abortion either.

If I tell a person that his curiosity and desire for the Eucharist is grounded in his faith, which began in the Baptist Church and now needs to expand beyond it, because the Baptist cannot provide what’s missing, but Catholicism can and I show him what Catholicism can provide, then I’m not bring him into the Church under false pretenses.

When a non-Catholic is looking at Catholicism, it is important to tell him the whole truth about his faith tradition and our own. This involves admitting what is good in his faith tradition. As St. Elizabeth Ann always says in her writings, she became a Catholic because she believed the Episcopal Church.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[JReducation]

I’m not going to defend the argument that the omnipresent Almighty is not present everywhere but a “community” can be family or even a marriage as well. That the Church now allows (and allowed it conditionally even prior to Vatican II) mixed marriages is evidence enough that Protestantism (and other religions for that matter) have changed in the eyes of the Church since the time of Trent. I suppose all is well as long as religion isn’t being discussed within such communities but perhaps that brings us to the possible realization that religion doesn’t matter in our lives as much as it did during the time of Trent either. Which may be a bigger problem for religion in general. Just thinking out loud here.

You’re going to have to help me out here. You lost me when you threw in marriage. By community, in this context, the Church means the Protestant or Reformation Communities. She’s not saying that religion is not important. She’s saying that the circumstances of today are not the same as the circumstances at the time of Trent.

Observe how Pope Benedict said that an error does not become a truth. However, after 500 years or so, the error is passed down as a truth and the person who believes it is acting out of faith, not out of obstinancy or rebelliousness. You have to treat him differently and speak about him differently.

I believe that this is the problem that some Protestant Christians have with Catholics. They’re still talking about us as if we were our ancestors of the 16th century. Those Protestants who are looking at today’s Catholics as we are today, not as we were in the 1600s, are finding it much easier to listen to us and work alongside us in peace. The ones stuck in the 1600s still see us as the devil to be avoided. They forget that the people of the 1600s, Catholics and Protestants were not exactly what one would call the most civil people. Chasing each other through the woods is not my idea of civility. But that was the time in which they lived.

I’m not sure if I responded correctly, because I’m still a little confused by your post. The marriage thing threw me for a loop.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[ProVobis]

You’re going to have to help me out here. You lost me when you threw in marriage. By community, in this context, the Church means the Protestant or Reformation Communities.

I threw that in there as the OP did mention a certain young lady being there.

 

[Chuck1]

Thanks all for your comments ect .There is a girl there she’s the only young person there and at the catholic church the are some young people but they go with there pearnts and leave after so I stated to feel lonley but I got to know the old dears there but no people my age an The the paster and a member of the church emailed me cuz I havnt been there for a few weeks So it’s hard anyway it’s all in the OP if someone can answer the op would be good ! Thanks chuck

 

[Contarini]

Hi I have been going to a local catholic church for a few weeks and just today I got to know a few of the old dears there which was nice some young people were there but they where with there pearnts do left afterwards but I also go to a smaller baptist church and I know everyone there and there all nice and I don’t feel much in the catholic Church
there was one young teen girl at the baptist church so that was good but now I’m torn between the two !
I agree with the catholic church’s teaching an beliefs etc but I feel bad because the baptist church has more of a community and I love the people and more relaxed worship and I feel bad if I ditch the baptist Churh completely cuz they care about me I got an email from the paster since I havnt Ben well checking up on me via email and a member of the congrigation who runs the teen bible class who checked up on me via text and I just need some advice !

Thanks all chuck

I’ll get into trouble from folks on this forum for saying this, but why do you have to choose?

While Cardinal Arinze has said in a Q & A session that it is “inadvisable” to attend a Protestant church regularly, as far as I know this is not binding teaching. Become a Catholic and keep going to the Baptists for fellowship. You can be an ecumenical witness to both groups.

Pope Benedict has said that “unity does not mean what could be called ecumenism of the return: that is, to deny and to reject one’s own faith history. Absolutely not!”

In other words, the Pope wants Christians of other traditions to bring the riches of those traditions into the Catholic Church. You may best be able to do this by participating in two congregations. Do not be put off by what people on this forum tells you. If an actual member of the Catholic hierarchy with authority over you tells you that going to a Baptist church will make you ineligible to receive the sacraments in the Catholic Church, then reject what I’m saying. Until then, it’s just a question of different opinions and interpretations.

Of course, Catholic canon law is very clear that you can’t receive communion in another ecclesial community if you become Catholic (or in the Catholic Church until you do). But short of that, I urge you to at least consider trying to include the riches of both traditions in your life.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

While this may be true, I don’t see too many Lutherans disagreeing with Luther, Anglicans disagreeing with Henry VIII/Cranmer, and so forth.

You probably don’t know many Anglicans, then.

I’m not sure even what it would mean to “agree with Henry VIII.” While some Anglo-Catholics hold up “Henrician Catholicism” as an ideal in the sense that the substance of Catholicism was (they would argue) preserved, this has little to do with personal agreement with or admiration for Henry VII.

And many, many Anglicans disagree with Cranmer.

Lutherans certainly are more focused on Luther than Anglicans are on any one figure, but it’s impossible not to disagree with Luther, since Luther frequently disagreed with himself

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

But, attending the Baptist church is endangering your soul very much.

How?

 

[ProVobis]

While some Anglo-Catholics hold up “Henrician Catholicism” as an ideal in the sense that the substance of Catholicism was (they would argue) preserved, …

Pope Leo XIII’s Apostolicae Curae of 1896 said otherwise to their argument.

 

[liturgyluver]

Pope Leo XIII’s Apostolicae Curae of 1896 said otherwise to their argument.

It didn’t actually… Pope Leo’s bull related to the ordination rite that was introduced under Edward VI in 1550, and in use until 1662.

 

[JReducation]

I’ll get into trouble from folks on this forum for saying this, but why do you have to choose?

While Cardinal Arinze has said in a Q & A session that it is “inadvisable” to attend a Protestant church regularly, as far as I know this is not binding teaching. Become a Catholic and keep going to the Baptists for fellowship. You can be an ecumenical witness to both groups.

Pope Benedict has said that “unity does not mean what could be called ecumenism of the return: that is, to deny and to reject one’s own faith history. Absolutely not!”

In other words, the Pope wants Christians of other traditions to bring the riches of those traditions into the Catholic Church. You may best be able to do this by participating in two congregations.
Of course, Catholic canon law is very clear that you can’t receive communion in another ecclesial community if you become Catholic (or in the Catholic Church until you do). But short of that, I urge you to at least consider trying to include the riches of both traditions in your life.

Edwin

We have to be careful here to understand what he’s talking about. Let’s start by answering the OP’s question very directly and then I’ll try to give a theological analysis of this statement by the Holy Father.

Answer to the young poster’s questions is simple. One cannot be Catholic and Protestant at the same time. One must be either Catholic or Baptist. The moral obligation here is to follow the fullness of truth which subsists only in the Catholic Church; therefore, the moral obligation is to become a Catholic, since obviously grace is pointing you in that direction. We have a moral duty to follow grace.

Now to the Holy Father’s comment on unity and diversity. An Ecumenism of Return meant that a non-Catholic who became a Catholic had to repudiate his former faith community. The Holy Father is saying that this is not necessary. Because you leave the Baptist church to become a Catholic does not mean that you turn against the Baptist. It does not mean that you forget all the good things that you learned as a Baptist or that you stop doing them, even if they are things that Catholics would not normally do.

I can give an example from my experience. I was born Jewish. Today, I’m Catholic. I do not badmouth Judaism, nor do I tolerate it. I’m Catholic because of Judaism. Everything I learned about God I learned from Judaism. My desire to know more about him was given to me by Judaism. As I followed this desire, it led me to Christianity. I became a Christian, because Judaism taught me to observe the commands of the Lord. One of them is to go where God leads. Just as he led our father Abraham, he led me right into Catholicism. I simply did what Abraham would have done. I followed.

I still attend the services on the High Holy Days with my family and sit down to Seder with my siblings and their families. I don’t do it because I need it for salvation, but because I need my family and friends. I am a part of their lives and they are a part of mine.

If I were a Baptist becoming Catholic, I would not worship at a Baptists church every week, just as I do not worship at temple every Saturday. However, there is no reason why I would not go back for those special occasions that are important to my family and friends. In the case of Baptists, they don’t have marked high holy days as do Catholics and Jews. But I know that they have weddings, baptisms, funerals and special events.

From the law of the Catholic Church, once you become a Catholic, it is wrong to REGULARLY worship at any other church or temple, because you are disrespecting those people. It is wrong to go to Communion Service with them. Gong to the Baptist service every week is for the Baptist Christian, not the Catholic Christian. For a Catholic to do so, knowing that he is not a Baptist and has no interest in being a Baptist is offensive to the Baptists. Why would I want to pretend to be one of them? Their faith is not a game to them. Pretending is a form of play. We don’t play with people’s belief systems.

Attending a Baptist church for a special event is a sign of unity. You are united by the event and by charity. If you go to a Baptist church for a wedding, you are there because of the wedding. You are doing the loving thing to support two people who are validly getting married. If you go for a funeral service, you are united to them in their sorrow and in the hope of the resurrection. One need not be Baptist to be united to them in these situations.

The Holy Father is saying that it is OK to keep what is good from the Baptist, even though you’re a Catholic and it’s also necessary to maintain your fraternal relationships, because we are brothers and sisters. Continue to love the people and everything they gave you. He’s not saying, “Become a Catholic and pretend to be a Baptist by going to Baptist service every Sunday.”

Conclusion, if the grace of God is pulling you toward Catholicism, you have a duty to God to follow that grace to its logical conclusion. That means that you become a Catholic and cease to be a Baptist. But you do not break with all the good things that you received through them or with those good friendships, nor do you never set foot there again for special occasions. They’re not demons. They are your brothers and sisters. The young girl can continue to be your friend. You will also meet young people at the Catholic Church and make friends there. Eventually, you can even have everyone together for a birthday party, a trip to a movie, a basketball game, whatever it is that you young people do today . . .THE GOOD THINGS THAT YOU DO.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[adstrinity]

So what did Jesus mean when he said “For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.”??

Oh my gosh, really? You’re inviting this comparison? Why would somebody do that!!! Well, I guess just to show how misinterpreted it is. Here you go, Matthew 18:20, from the DR –

For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
[20] There am I in the midst of them: This is understood of such assemblies only as are gathered in the name and authority of Christ; and in unity of the church of Christ. St. Cyprian, De Unitate Ecclesiae.

Thanks all for your comments ect .There is a girl there she’s the only young person there and at the catholic church the are some young people but they go with there pearnts and leave after so I stated to feel lonley but I got to know the old dears there but no people my age an The the paster and a member of the church emailed me cuz I havnt been there for a few weeks So it’s hard anyway it’s all in the OP if someone can answer the op would be good ! Thanks chuck

Hey Chuck1, how old are you? Do you drive yourself?

 

[thistle]

We have to be careful here to understand what he’s talking about. Let’s start by answering the OP’s question very directly and then I’ll try to give a theological analysis of this statement by the Holy Father.

Answer to the young poster’s questions is simple. One cannot be Catholic and Protestant at the same time. One must be either Catholic or Baptist. The moral obligation here is to follow the fullness of truth which subsists only in the Catholic Church; therefore, the moral obligation is to become a Catholic, since obviously grace is pointing you in that direction. We have a moral duty to follow grace.

Now to the Holy Father’s comment on unity and diversity. An Ecumenism of Return meant that a non-Catholic who became a Catholic had to repudiate his former faith community. The Holy Father is saying that this is not necessary. Because you leave the Baptist church to become a Catholic does not mean that you turn against the Baptist. It does not mean that you forget all the good things that you learned as a Baptist or that you stop doing them, even if they are things that Catholics would not normally do.

I can give an example from my experience. I was born Jewish. Today, I’m Catholic. I do not badmouth Judaism, nor do I tolerate it. I’m Catholic because of Judaism. Everything I learned about God I learned from Judaism. My desire to know more about him was given to me by Judaism. As I followed this desire, it led me to Christianity. I became a Christian, because Judaism taught me to observe the commands of the Lord. One of them is to go where God leads. Just as he led our father Abraham, he led me right into Catholicism. I simply did what Abraham would have done. I followed.

I still attend the services on the High Holy Days with my family and sit down to Seder with my siblings and their families. I don’t do it because I need it for salvation, but because I need my family and friends. I am a part of their lives and they are a part of mine.

If I were a Baptist becoming Catholic, I would not worship at a Baptists church every week, just as I do not worship at temple every Saturday. However, there is no reason why I would not go back for those special occasions that are important to my family and friends. In the case of Baptists, they don’t have marked high holy days as do Catholics and Jews. But I know that they have weddings, baptisms, funerals and special events.

From the law of the Catholic Church, once you become a Catholic, it is wrong to REGULARLY worship at any other church or temple, because you are disrespecting those people. It is wrong to go to Communion Service with them. Gong to the Baptist service every week is for the Baptist Christian, not the Catholic Christian. For a Catholic to do so, knowing that he is not a Baptist and has no interest in being a Baptist is offensive to the Baptists. Why would I want to pretend to be one of them? Their faith is not a game to them. Pretending is a form of play. We don’t play with people’s belief systems.

Attending a Baptist church for a special event is a sign of unity. You are united by the event and by charity. If you go to a Baptist church for a wedding, you are there because of the wedding. You are doing the loving thing to support two people who are validly getting married. If you go for a funeral service, you are united to them in their sorrow and in the hope of the resurrection. One need not be Baptist to be united to them in these situations.

The Holy Father is saying that it is OK to keep what is good from the Baptist, even though you’re a Catholic and it’s also necessary to maintain your fraternal relationships, because we are brothers and sisters. Continue to love the people and everything they gave you. He’s not saying, “Become a Catholic and pretend to be a Baptist by going to Baptist service every Sunday.”

Conclusion, if the grace of God is pulling you toward Catholicism, you have a duty to God to follow that grace to its logical conclusion. That means that you become a Catholic and cease to be a Baptist. But you do not break with all the good things that you received through them or with those good friendships, nor do you never set foot there again for special occasions. They’re not demons. They are your brothers and sisters. The young girl can continue to be your friend. You will also meet young people at the Catholic Church and make friends there. Eventually, you can even have everyone together for a birthday party, a trip to a movie, a basketball game, whatever it is that you young people do today . . .THE GOOD THINGS THAT YOU DO.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

I fully agree with everything you have said throughout this thread.

 

[adstrinity]

So what did Jesus mean when he said “For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.”??

Matthew 18:20 (DR) –

For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

([20] There am I in the midst of them: This is understood of such assemblies only as are gathered in the name and authority of Christ; and in unity of the church of Christ. St. Cyprian, De Unitate Ecclesiae.)

Please note, also, that Christ isn’t talking to anybody here, He is talking to his Disciples, i.e., His priests, those who live in persona Christi.

 

[Chuck1]

I dunno what to do catholic makes for sense with beliefs but there not many young people at the church maybe I can go to a youth group or rcia at another catholic church or somthing ?
But the baptist is like a home and everyone likes me and I like them and I’m part of the Sunday school and help out with church events ect ! I’m so confused but god put these thoughts into my head for a reason …

Thanks chuck

 

[adstrinity]

Chuck, why is it so important to have people your age at church?

 

[JReducation]

Matthew 18:20 (DR) –

For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

([20] There am I in the midst of them: This is understood of such assemblies only as are gathered in the name and authority of Christ; and in unity of the church of Christ. St. Cyprian, De Unitate Ecclesiae.)

Please note, also, that Christ isn’t talking to anybody here, He is talking to his Disciples, i.e., His priests, those who live in persona Christi.

These words are actually part of Jewish tradition. They refer to the people of God.

I dunno what to do catholic makes for sense with beliefs but there not many young people at the church maybe I can go to a youth group or rcia at another catholic church or somthing ?
But the baptist is like a home and everyone likes me and I like them and I’m part of the Sunday school and help out with church events ect ! I’m so confused but god put these thoughts into my head for a reason …

Thanks chuck

Chuck, there are young people in the Catholic Church. It sounds like God is calling you to Catholicism. You need to find an RCIA program. If you’re a teen, many parishes and dioceses have RCIT programs for teen converts. You need to approach your pastor or one of the deacons at the local Catholic Church. The deacons are usually responsible for this.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[KarenElissa]

I dunno what to do catholic makes for sense with beliefs but there not many young people at the church maybe I can go to a youth group or rcia at another catholic church or somthing ?
But the baptist is like a home and everyone likes me and I like them and I’m part of the Sunday school and help out with church events ect ! I’m so confused but god put these thoughts into my head for a reason …

Thanks chuck

Changing churches is hard, there is no way around that. I too went straight from my old church, where I was VERY active and knew tons of people, to the Catholic Church where I knew no one. It was hard, but it got to the point where I knew the fullness of the truth was in the Catholic Church and not in my former church, so I really had no choice but to make the move.

I stopped teaching Sunday School and quit going every week, went back for a few special events and such, but as I gradually got more and more involved in my Catholic parish, I was less and less interested in going back. I still had a few friends that I kept in touch with, but also made lots of new friends at my parish.

I think the key is to jump in with both feet at your new parish. If you go from being super involved to doing nothing, it will be hard, but if you jump in and start getting to know people, pretty soon, your new church will feel just as much like home as your old church did.

 

[Contarini]

Pope Leo XIII’s Apostolicae Curae of 1896 said otherwise to their argument.

Apart from the fact that this document is not accepted by Anglicans, naturally, it actually said nothing of the kind. It referred only to the Edwardian Ordinal and to Anglicanism after that point.

The validity of the sacraments celebrated under Henry after his break with Rome is not under dispute. The Henrician Church had essentially the same status, in Rome’s eyes, as the Orthodox or the Old Catholics–schismatic but with valid sacraments. Apostolicae Curae claimed that this ended with the adoption of a Protestant ordination ritual expressing an intention incompatible with valid apostolic succession.

Edwin