Torn between two churches!

[ProVobis]

The validity of the sacraments celebrated under Henry after his break with Rome is not under dispute. The Henrician Church had essentially the same status, in Rome’s eyes, as the Orthodox or the Old Catholics–schismatic but with valid sacraments. Apostolicae Curae claimed that this ended with the adoption of a Protestant ordination ritual expressing an intention incompatible with valid apostolic succession.

Well, if they don’t have Apostolic Succession, how could their sacraments be valid, much less Catholic?

 

[promethius]

Well, if they don’t have Apostolic Succession, how could their sacraments be valid, much less Catholic?

They HAD them at the time of the split, as long as they had properly ordained bishops and priests. However, when the rite of ordination was changed, and all the properly ordained priests had died off, the validity of their sacraments was gone.

 

[Contarini]

Answer to the young poster’s questions is simple. One cannot be Catholic and Protestant at the same time.

But doesn’t that depend on what you mean by “Protestant”?

If it’s true that the fullness of the truth can be found within Catholicism, and that partial truth can be found within Protestantism, then one can as a Catholic embrace all the truth found within Protestantism. And truth is never just an abstract reality. If you say, “you can believe with Baptists in the Trinity but you can’t sing a hymn to the Trinity with Baptists,” then the second part of your statement reduces the first to meaninglessness.

Now to the Holy Father’s comment on unity and diversity. An Ecumenism of Return meant that a non-Catholic who became a Catholic had to repudiate his former faith community. The Holy Father is saying that this is not necessary.

But you are interpreting it to say that it is necessary. If you can’t worship with people any more, you are repudiating them.

I still attend the services on the High Holy Days with my family and sit down to Seder with my siblings and their families. I don’t do it because I need it for salvation, but because I need my family and friends. I am a part of their lives and they are a part of mine.

If I were a Baptist becoming Catholic, I would not worship at a Baptists church every week, just as I do not worship at temple every Saturday.

Let me unpack this (but first of all, thanks for your story, which is fascinating, and for your wise and gentle posts, which I have often appreciated). You say first that you appreciate your Jewish heritage and continue to embrace it, and that it is what led you to Catholicism. But then, you give your reason for worshiping on high holidays as the desire to honor your family rather than the desire to honor the truth found in Judaism. You have switched rationales entirely. Therefore, your argument does not make sense to me.

I’m certainly not telling you that you should worship at a synagogue every week (though I probably would if I had a Jewish heritage–if I had more time and was sure of being welcomed, I’d probably do it anyway!). But you haven’t given a reason, based on your stated premises, why doing so would be wrong.

From the law of the Catholic Church, once you become a Catholic, it is wrong to REGULARLY worship at any other church or temple

Can you point me to the statement in canon law saying this?

because you are disrespecting those people.

Is this really the reason given in canon law (if such a prohibition exists)? That would be surprising–and frankly, it would be insulting. Baptists or Jews or whoever get to decide what is respectful to them and what isn’t. Catholics don’t get to define their own exclusivist behavior as “respectful” to the people with whom they are refusing to worship.

It is wrong to go to Communion Service with them

That is in canon law–I recognize this, and I understand the reason for it (which has nothing at all, that I can see, to do with “respecting” Baptists or any other non-Catholics). I could make an argument against it, but it would be futile. However, you seem to identify regular attendance with receiving communion. They aren’t the same thing at all.

Why would I want to pretend to be one of them?

There’s no pretense involved. You tell them, “I’m becoming a Catholic. I can’t receive communion with you any longer, and I will not participate in anything that contradicts my newfound faith, but I care about you as a community and I am happy to fellowship with you, study the Bible with you, and worship God with you as long as you are willing to put up with me.”

The Holy Father is saying that it is OK to keep what is good from the Baptist, even though you’re a Catholic and it’s also necessary to maintain your fraternal relationships, because we are brothers and sisters. Continue to love the people and everything they gave you. He’s not saying, “Become a Catholic and pretend to be a Baptist by going to Baptist service every Sunday.”

I agree that he’s not saying to go to a Baptist service every Sunday. He says nothing about that one way or the other. I am saying that if he really meant what he said, then it’s hard to see how it could be wrong to express that truth by continuing to attend a Baptist (or some other non-Catholic) worship service on a regular basis. To say that it would be wrong is to make a mockery of the Holy Father’s words. Christian truth is always embodied. If you don’t reject your heritage, then you must be able to go on practicing it insofar as it doesn’t contradict Catholicism. Otherwise the Pope was engaging in empty politeness–not something I have found characteristic of him.

I am passionate about this because this is the issue that I face as well–with the difference that the congregation in question is Episcopalian rather than Baptist, and the “girl my own age” is my wife.

Edwin

 

[passer_by]

I still attend the services on the High Holy Days with my family and sit down to Seder with my siblings and their families. I don’t do it because I need it for salvation, but because I need my family and friends. I am a part of their lives and they are a part of mine.

If I were a Baptist becoming Catholic, I would not worship at a Baptists church every week, just as I do not worship at temple every Saturday. However, there is no reason why I would not go back for those special occasions that are important to my family and friends.

Just curious though, while this might work best for someone in your level of knowledge and experience, do you think this advisable for a recent convert? Is there not a possibility that the person might leave or lapse in the Catholic faith as a result when attending these events?

Perhaps due to some unfounded attraction?

Not to belittle the OP’s problem but I think that presents a good example where the person feels attracted to his past faith simply because of the communal feeling. But that is not something worth compromising the truth for. It seems to be holding him back in a way from fully embracing Catholicism as well. Similarly for some, this can be a great distraction that may even lead them away from the faith. Also, depending on the former faith, for an example Christian sects with new-age ideas/rituals, it can be even more addictive to go back when attending such events.

So would it be prudent to advise new converts in general to attend events of their past faith?

 

[JReducation]

Just curious though, while this might work best for someone in your level of knowledge and experience, do you think this advisable for a recent convert? Is there not a possibility that the person might leave the Catholic faith as a result when attending this events?

Perhaps due to some unfounded attraction?

Not to belittle the OP’s problem but I think that presents a good example where the person feels attracted to his past faith simply because of the communal feeling that is not something worth compromising the truth for. For some, this can be a great distraction that may even lead them away from the faith. Also, depending on the former faith, for an example Christian sects with new-age ideas/rituals, it can be even more addictive to go back.

So would it be prudent to advise new converts in general to attend events of their past faith?

The Holy Father is not advising convertst to attend events at their former faith community. That’s a very personal choice. What he is saying is that it is not wrong. He’s saying that Catholicism does not promote repudiating your former faith tradition.

One must be clear on the meaning of repudiation. Not participating in worship with your former church is not repudiation. Repudiation comes from the term “repute”. It means that you don’t become a Catholic and then take it upon yourself to badmouth the Baptists, Episcopalians, Jews, Muslims or whatever you left behind. You do the contrary. You recognize the good that you received.

You’re certainly not supposed to be going back every Sunday to the Protestant church where you cam from, because it’s a mis-statement. If you worship with a community every week, you’re expressing a communion with that community. The question is are you or are you not in communion with the Protestant community that you left? You can’t be in communion with two faith communities. This is not part of our Catholic tradition. You’re either in full communion with the Catholic Church or in an imperfect communion. If you’re in an imperfect communion, then you’re not Catholic.

This does not mean that you cannot be present for special occasions. Observe what I said. Judaism, like Catholicism, has high holy days that are very marked, especially Rosh Hashana and Passover. These are both religious and cultural celebrations as are Christmas and Thanksgiving to Christians. When I sit at a Seder, I sit there as a Jew, which I have never ceased to be. You can’t cease to be a Jew anymore than you can caese to be Italian, American or Irish. That’s my background and my culture. I do not practice Judaism. There is the difference.

In the case of Protestants and Muslims, the situation is different. Judaism is both a faith and a culture. Protestantism and Islam is not a culture. They are faith traditions made up of many cultures. The major events that would draw one to attend services at a Protestant church would be a funeral, wedding or some special celebration. This is what we mean by non repudiation. You don’t refuse to attend your brother’s wedding, because he’s Baptist and it’s taking place in a Baptist church. There is no moral reason to refuse. He’s your brother. If both parties are free to marry, the marriage is valid and they deserve your good wishes and your support. You’re not going there to worship. You’re going there for your brother’s wedding.

Another reason for not attending services outside of the Catholic Church on a regular basis is the fact that there is nothing in any Protestant, Jewish or Islamic service that is not present in a Catholic mass and more. It’s not logical to go to mass, which has the fulness of perfect worship and then attend an invalid mass at an Episcopal church or a Liturgy of the Word at an Evangelical church.

Catholicism is bigger than laws. It’s also about logic. We always want rules and more rules as if there were no such thing as logic and common sense to guide us. The truth is that the Church cannot make a rule for every possible situation. She gives us philosophical and theological principals and systems. If we learn them and use them, we can figure out the right thing to do.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[passer_by]

The Holy Father is not advising convertst to attend events at their former faith community. That’s a very personal choice. What he is saying is that it is not wrong. He’s saying that Catholicism does not promote repudiating your former faith tradition.

One must be clear on the meaning of repudiation. Not participating in worship with your former church is not repudiation. Repudiation comes from the term “repute”. It means that you don’t become a Catholic and then take it upon yourself to badmouth the Baptists, Episcopalians, Jews, Muslims or whatever you left behind. You do the contrary. You recognize the good that you received.

You’re certainly not supposed to be going back every Sunday to the Protestant church where you cam from, because it’s a mis-statement. If you worship with a community every week, you’re expressing a communion with that community. The question is are you or are you not in communion with the Protestant community that you left? You can’t be in communion with two faith communities. This is not part of our Catholic tradition. You’re either in full communion with the Catholic Church or in an imperfect communion. If you’re in an imperfect communion, then you’re not Catholic.

This does not mean that you cannot be present for special occasions. Observe what I said. Judaism, like Catholicism, has high holy days that are very marked, especially Rosh Hashana and Passover. These are both religious and cultural celebrations as are Christmas and Thanksgiving to Christians. When I sit at a Seder, I sit there as a Jew, which I have never ceased to be. You can’t cease to be a Jew anymore than you can caese to be Italian, American or Irish. That’s my background and my culture. I do not practice Judaism. There is the difference.

In the case of Protestants and Muslims, the situation is different. Judaism is both a faith and a culture. Protestantism and Islam is not a culture. They are faith traditions made up of many cultures. The major events that would draw one to attend services at a Protestant church would be a funeral, wedding or some special celebration. This is what we mean by non repudiation. You don’t refuse to attend your brother’s wedding, because he’s Baptist and it’s taking place in a Baptist church. There is no moral reason to refuse. He’s your brother. If both parties are free to marry, the marriage is valid and they deserve your good wishes and your support. You’re not going there to worship. You’re going there for your brother’s wedding.

Another reason for not attending services outside of the Catholic Church on a regular basis is the fact that there is nothing in any Protestant, Jewish or Islamic service that is not present in a Catholic mass and more. It’s not logical to go to mass, which has the fulness of perfect worship and then attend an invalid mass at an Episcopal church or a Liturgy of the Word at an Evangelical church.

Catholicism is bigger than laws. It’s also about logic. We always want rules and more rules as if there were no such thing as logic and common sense to guide us. The truth is that the Church cannot make a rule for every possible situation. She gives us philosophical and theological principals and systems. If we learn them and use them, we can figure out the right thing to do.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Thanks again Brother JR. That makes perfect sense.

I was a bit confused because I thought the church wanted to make a blanket encouragement to the converted to go back and attend events of their past faith. But what you said put things in to perspective.

 

[johnthebaptist1]

I beleive that theirs only one Church,the church of JESUS CHRIST, as long as you beleive in Jesus,and his words,and LOVE him with all your heart. As we know that Jesus will be with us tell the end time. Just tell him always that you love him, and that you will give your life for him.