Torn between two traditions

[Layman]

I think in the silences and the stillness of the TLM, whatever is in you, good or bad, is going to come out. Its rigidity is good. Just you and the Mass.

 

[TRAD1936]

Merry Christmas all! Long story short, I am having issues dealing with what I grew up with, Protestantism,and my Catholic faith. The Protestant church has much more freedom in their services, and at times it is fun. I didnt go to church then to have fun, but there was a freemdom to change worship service, sing Contemporary songs, etc. The Mass is great and theologically I love it, **but it can be very boring, and because it is so repetitious I lose my motivation. ** I know the real reasons to go to Mass, but after growing up in a certain tradition for so many years and it is still hard adjusting to the Catholic way of things after a year and a half. I’m not really sure what to do.

Tom

The Mass can be boring. What a statement. What an incredible statement. What a sad, sad statement on the state of affairs in the Church these days apparently among many.

Think for one moment what happens in the Mass. Through some mystical way that we cannot fathom, we are transportd to Calvary and are there with Jesus in his final moments and his glorious resurrection. How can such a miracle be considered boring in the least by someone who truly understands what is happening in their presence?

The answer is obvious at least to an old man. The people either do not fully understand or do not accept what is happening at the Altar in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Otherwise how could they make such a statement?

.

 

[TRAD1936]

The Mass can be boring. What a statement. What an incredible statement. What a sad, sad statement on the state of affairs in the Church these days apparently among many.

Think for one moment what happens in the Mass. Through some mystical way that we cannot fathom, we are transportd to Calvary and are there with Jesus in his final moments and his glorious resurrection. How can such a miracle be considered boring in the least by someone who truly understands what is happening in their presence? How in the world could you lose your motivation t such an event?

The answer is obvious at least to an old man. The people either do not fully understand or do not accept what is happening at the Altar in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Otherwise how could they make such a statement?

.

 

[MarkThompson]

The Mass can be boring. What a statement. What an incredible statement. What a sad, sad statement on the state of affairs in the Church these days apparently among many.

Think for one moment what happens in the Mass. Through some mystical way that we cannot fathom, we are transportd to Calvary and are there with Jesus in his final moments and his glorious resurrection. How can such a miracle be considered boring in the least by someone who truly understands what is happening in their presence?

The answer is obvious at least to an old man. The people either do not fully understand or do not accept what is happening at the Altar in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Otherwise how could they make such a statement?

Gee, what a warm “Welcome to the Church” for a convert asking for help dealing with difficulties he’s having adjusting in light of his upbringing in a different church. I hope you’re proud of yourself.

 

[TRAD1936]

Gee, what a warm “Welcome to the Church” for a convert asking for help dealing with difficulties he’s having adjusting in light of his upbringing in a different church. I hope you’re proud of yourself.

Sorry that I don’t meet with your approval. That really bothers me. If you would, please point out to me if I said something contrary to Church teaching on the subject of the Mass. Also show me where I specifically attacked this poster. I pointed out to me what appeared to be at a minimum, a lack of understanding. I stand on my statement. If you fully understand that a truly miraculous event is taking place in your midst how could you ever be bored and lose motivation? Of course, If your mind is not totally on the sacrifice, you could easily get restless, bored or even irritated.

It is quite possible that this person was not adequitely catechized on the subject of the Mass during his time at RCIA. Having some experience in that particular area, I can attest that at times the basics aren’t fully explained in the orgy of Love, Love, Love that permeates many of the programs today. In fact they are often completely ignored or merely given lip service. I know that there are good RCIA programs, but there are many that are not. That is a reality. And part of that reality is that many people are very poorly catechized through absolutely no fault of their own.

As far as helping, did I do something to hurt him? Pointing out a possible reason for his problem, I doubt will hurt his spiritual progeress at all. In fact it might even help him…

And yes, I am proud of myself.

 

[MarkThompson]

Sorry that I don’t meet with your approval. That really bothers me. If you would, please point out to me if I said something contrary to Church teaching on the subject of the Mass. Also show me where I specifically attacked this poster. I pointed out to me what appeared to be at a minimum, a lack of understanding. I stand on my statement. If you fully understand that a truly miraculous event is taking place in your midst how could you ever be bored and lose motivation? Of course, If your mind is not totally on the sacrifice, you could easily get restless, bored or even irritated.

It is quite possible that this person was not adequitely catechized on the subject of the Mass during his time at RCIA. Having some experience in that particular area, I can attest that at times the basics aren’t fully explained in the orgy of Love, Love, Love that permeates many of the programs today. In fact they are often completely ignored or merely given lip service. I know that there are good RCIA programs, but there are many that are not. That is a reality. And part of that reality is that many people are very poorly catechized through absolutely no fault of their own.

As far as helping, did I do something to hurt him? Pointing out a possible reason for his problem, I doubt will hurt his spiritual progeress at all. In fact it might even help him…

And yes, I am proud of myself.

Oh, so you’re just telling him, “You are inadequate and/or faithless.” How lovely. I’m sure it’s a really helpful message – and not tainted with even a smidge of that “Love, Love, Love” that you so heartily disapprove of.

 

[kozlosap]

Oh, so you’re just telling him, “You are inadequate and/or faithless.” How lovely. I’m sure it’s a really helpful message – and not tainted with even a smidge of that “Love, Love, Love” that you so heartily disapprove of.

I totally agree Mark! What a concept that not all Catholics are in the same stage of their spiritual journey

 

[numealinesimpet]

Actually, ConstantineTG’s remarks appear to give the very definition of “catholic”.

Right?

Yes, that’s what I meant. Reading the early writings, it seems clear to me that “obedience to the Pope” was not always stated explicitly because it was taken for granted. The Byzantines were fully Catholic in the formative centuries. The rifts with Rome were about peripheral things, which however were felt very deeply by the Greeks.

Three times the leaders of the Orthodox church were willing to “submit to Rome,” but the people were not.

But this late in the game, I respectfully submit that they have no further excuses for refusing to accept the Pope. Their own history should warn them –*their spiritual leaders developed a culture of subservience to the Secular ruler, which made it all the easier for them to be manipulated by the Soviets.

 

[numealinesimpet]

I would disagree. The primacy was exhibited from the first. See the Epistle of Clement (4th pope) to the Corinthians. Because of the very rapid developments of the period, it can be dated with accuracy to the late 90s AD. The Corinthian Community had deposed their presbyters (which is the identical word with ‘priest’, by the way: Greek presbyteros → Latin presbyter → Old French prestre → Old English → preost → Mod. Eng. priest) and elected some replacements. Very significantly, the supporters of the original priests appealed, not to S. John the Apostle, who was still alive, but to Pope Clement. Clemant’s reply radiates an authority which could have placed his reply anywhere from the First to the Twentieth (but pre –1960) Church. He ordered them to re-instate the original priests, and to end the schis, and he sends along two “representatives” who, he explains, will report to him that" [not “if”] "all has been done above board.

Also, the Soviet didn’t really manipulate so much as virtually eradicate. When my wife was Chrismated it was done cloack and dagger style as her family were state employees and letting it be known you had this done could cause you grave problems. It is a testament to the fact that the gates of Hell shall not endure that the USSR is now long gone and the Orthodox Church is not. The spiritual leaders were never all that subservient either. Look up for example people like Basil the Fool for Christ who made Ivan the Terrible look very, very silly for his unChristian behaviour.

 

[tradconvert]

I am IMPRESSED! You, a convert who probably had no instruction during RCIA re. the TLM., have not only found it, but are reveling in it. So am I, but I was brought up with this Mass. Please tell us how you learned it, as so many Catholics won’t even try. “just to hard”, they say…“I don’t speak Latin” they say. & on & on ad infinitum. ** Did you purchase a video, go to a class or just go & follow a missal, thus learning it by yourself**. I am thinking of purchasing a video for 4 children, as they are “Vatican II/Novus Ordo” people. It’s all they’ve ever known.

Dear CradleCath
Thanks for your interest. My first acquaintance with the Catholic Church was as a young strictly brought up son of a mainstream protestant minister, before the V2 reforms when natural curiosity led me to investigate further and I was profoundly moved by how different and more beautiful Catholic churches were and how mysterious and spiritual was the latin mass. But during that period one thing and another - not least the sudden changes from 1969 onwards - led me not to go the whole way to converting and I lapsed into nothingness in a religious sense.
So many years later in the late 1990s, when I re-discovered the traditional latin mass courtesy of the SSPX, I studied Catholic doctrines plus anything traditional I could get my hands on over the internet or in books and was fully convinced about the truths of the Catholic religion. That is why I converted at a traditional chapel after a short period of formal instructions from the priest.
I respect the SSPX very much for persisting and saving the Traditional mass and still sometimes attend their masses, but I am now generally part of a diocesan traditional community which not only has the traditional mass as its norm but has a very rich devotional life as well. I often rue the lost decades between my initial pigued, but immature, level of interest and my ultimate conversion. I’m trying to catch up for lost time as it were!!

I would suggest recommending some of the wonderful videos of the mass and other traditional Catholic events to your family members and hope they also have their interest piqued.

 

[CradleCath]

Dear CradleCath
Thanks for your interest. My first acquaintance with the Catholic Church was as a young strictly brought up son of a mainstream protestant minister, before the V2 reforms when natural curiosity led me to investigate further and I was profoundly moved by how different and more beautiful Catholic churches were and how mysterious and spiritual was the latin mass. But during that period one thing and another - not least the sudden changes from 1969 onwards - led me not to go the whole way to converting and I lapsed into nothingness in a religious sense.
**So many years later in the late 1990s, when I re-discovered the traditional latin mass courtesy of the SSPX, I studied Catholic doctrines plus anything traditional I could get my hands on over the internet or in books and was fully convinced about the truths of the Catholic religion. **That is why I converted at a traditional chapel after a short period of formal instructions from the priest.
I respect the SSPX very much for persisting and saving the Traditional mass and still sometimes attend their masses, but I am now generally part of a diocesan traditional community which not only has the traditional mass as its norm but has a very rich devotional life as well. I often rue the lost decades between my initial pigued, but immature, level of interest and my ultimate conversion. I’m trying to catch up for lost time as it were!!

I would suggest recommending some of the wonderful videos of the mass and other traditional Catholic events to your family members and hope they also have their interest piqued.

Just as I thought. When one really wants something, they find a way. You are a great example to all of us here & I’m glad that you’ve found a Traditional diocesan parish, but I continually pray that the Latin Church & the SSPX. will reach a place where we can be reconciled. We could sure use more Traditional Catholics right now.

 

[tradconvert]

Just as I thought. When one really wants something, they find a way. You are a great example to all of us here & I’m glad that you’ve found a Traditional diocesan parish, but I continually pray that the Latin Church & the SSPX. will reach a place where we can be reconciled. We could sure use more Traditional Catholics right now.

I agree with you wholeheartedly - the future of the Church depends on maintaining traditions and upholding truths which are at the core of our faith.