Torn on This Issue

[Fremont]

You mean you don’t think they can pick up a history book, look online for the history of our immigration policies, find how we have sought to exclude others and how we’ve made laws specifically designed, post IRCA 1986. to keep THEM out?

I am certainly open to being corrected.

Certainly some types of applicants for immigration into the US are targeted and refused permission to enter. This includes those who have committed certain kinds of crime and those who have certain kinds of illnesses. I do not see these laws and regulations as unfair or unjust.

Maybe you can provide a reference to current US immigration laws or policies that unfairly or unjustly target certain groups.

 

[Ituyu]

If we wish to look at our Bible let’s review the Gospel from last week.

Gospel According to Saint Mark

Chapter 10

21 And Jesus looking on him…

It seems pretty easy to view the message as teaching us, among other things, it is wrong to steal, bear false witness or do fraud as well as to recant our love of material wealth.
It seems much more difficult to interpret the message as teaching us to utilize stealing, bearing false witness and fraud in our pursuit of material gains.

When it comes to serving the poor, our neighbors and those whose Rights have been violated for no legitimate purpose, you could not be more WRONG!

 

[Jeffrey]

Correct… the homeless that were already here before the illegals came.

When it comes to serving the poor, our neighbors and those whose Rights have been violated for no legitimate purpose, you could not be more WRONG!

 

[wabrams]

Thank God we have a Pope to lead the Church. Fremont you’re not the Pope. I doubt that you’re even Catholic. Your Enforecement Only proposals are difficult to reconcile with even the most basic understanding of Catholic Teachings.

Though I am not a theologian or expert Catholic here is how I hear the message of our Popes and Bishops.

You are being a little hypocrite; I should say that I can’t believe that this is what your arguement has sunken too, but I’m not. You’re a pretty weak person when the only way to “prove” your point is to question someone elses faith. You have shown your true colors.

 

[Ituyu]

You are being a little hypocrite; I should say that I can’t believe that this is what your arguement has sunken too, but I’m not. You’re a pretty weak person when the only way to “prove” your point is to question someone elses faith. You have shown your true colors.

It wasn’t intended to be a slight. It was just my personal assessment. I’ve always approached the discussion thinking that I was speaking to a Catholic and it dawned on me that I could be wrong. I don’t recall ever having that specific conversation or that that claim was ever made, so I just don’t know for sure. It’s not in the profile and may not even be in mine either. So, it’s a legitimate doubt for either of us. One that is easily addressed. That is why I made an attempt at explaining it via my understanding of the Catholic perspective. And, that is all it was but of course you’re entitled to your opinion.

 

[Fremont]

35 ** For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in,**
36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
37 "Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?
38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you?
39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
**40 "The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’ **
41 "Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink,
43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 "They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 "He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

home.earthlink.net/~viessman/Math25.html

Your post is a lovely message I hope we can all embrace. Most of us indeed consider love, compassion and charity as fundamentally good.

But what does this message have to do with immigration? The message does not seem to mention immigration or travelers or any other related principle.

As far as I know the Church does not grant permanent residence in Vatican City to any and all who desire it. They have rules, regulations and other policies that limit who may adopt Vatican City as their home. These rules also restrict where even brief visitors may go in the Vatican as well as when visitors are to leave.

This would seem to indicate that laws, rules, regulations and national policies that govern and control immigration are compatible with the message you posted.

 

[Fremont]

When it comes to serving the poor, our neighbors and those whose Rights have been violated for no legitimate purpose, you could not be more WRONG!

You can ignore or reject the message given to us by St. Mark, that is your choice.

If there are exceptions so be it but I think any such exceptions should apply to all who fit the definitions used in the exceptions.

I am not aware of any exceptions where the message teaches that stealing, fraud and bearing false witness are to be used in the pursuit of material gains or that certain groups of people have the “right” to steal, use fraud or bear false witness as they seek material gains.

The I-9 employment form is not immoral or unjust or inequitably applied. It equally applies to all employed workers. This was an example I included to try and make the message germane to the thread topic of immigration.

The law applies equally to all illegal immigrants, be that a Mexican national who illegally entered the US, a French national who illegally remained in the US after their visa papers expired or anyone else illegally residing in the US, who present false credentials and falsely attest they are eligible to work in the US are committing fraud and bearing false witness.

No illegal immigrant has the “right” to work in the US.

 

[Ituyu]

Your post is a lovely message I hope we can all embrace. Most of us indeed consider love, compassion and charity as fundamentally good.

But what does this message have to do with immigration? The message does not seem to mention immigration or travelers or any other related principle.

It seems that you premise is severely flawed. Our economy needs these workers to fill jobs that would have gone wanting. Not only could we have admitted them legally, we should have. In fact, there was no legitimate reason to close the legal door when all the figures show that Immigration from Mexico would necessarily have to increase due to the implementation of NAFTA. And, they have already become an integral part of the American economy.

 

[Ituyu]

You can ignore or reject the message given to us by St. Mark, that is your choice.

If there are exceptions so be it but I think any such exceptions should apply to all who fit the definitions used in the exceptions.

I am not aware of any exceptions where the message teaches that stealing, fraud and bearing false witness are to be used in the pursuit of material gains or that certain groups of people have the “right” to steal, use fraud or bear false witness as they seek material gains.

The I-9 employment form is not immoral or unjust or inequitably applied. It equally applies to all employed workers. This was an example I included to try and make the message germane to the thread topic of immigration.

The law applies equally to all illegal immigrants, be that a Mexican national who illegally entered the US, a French national who illegally remained in the US after their visa papers expired or anyone else illegally residing in the US, who present false credentials and falsely attest they are eligible to work in the US are committing fraud and bearing false witness.

No illegal immigrant has the “right” to work in the US.

I do not ignore nor do I reject the message in Mark, it simply does not apply to the actions of the “illegal” immigrant because “work” is not theft, contributing to our economy is not harm and the vast majority have obeyed our “Just” laws. There is no good reason for them to have been denied entry in the first place. Once more, natural Market forces have always served to control the influx of immigration from Mexico.

 

[Ituyu]

The point is that your claims that our immigration laws are racist are not true; they are false.

THE “HUDDLED MASSES” MYTH: IMMIGRATION AND CIVIL RIGHTS, by Kevin R. Johnson. Philadelphia: Temple University Press, 2003. 264pp.

“The book presents a series of case studies showing how immigration policy and judicial actions, particularly those of the Supreme Court, have wielded racist intentions and forced racialized results. A chapter is devoted, respectively, to racial minorities per se, political undesirables, the poor, criminals, women, and lesbians and gays. In each chapter, Johnson draws upon case law to show how these groups have been cast as foreigners, racialized, and both physically and socially excluded from American citizenship. In each case, laws and policy have “ebbed and flowed with the immigration winds of the day” (p.109). In each case, actions have been based on dubious theories about the *842] characteristics of particular racialized groups, although the basis for racist assumptions has become more subtle over time. And, in each case, there has been a significant impact upon established communities of the same racial and ethnic backgrounds that goes beyond the simple application of immigration policy. The relationship between official actions in the name of immigration law and social actions in the name of civil society is a discursive one.”

bsos.umd.edu/gvpt/lpbr/subpages/reviews/hing-johnson1104.htm

 

[Fremont]

It seems that you premise is severely flawed. Our economy needs these workers to fill jobs that would have gone wanting. Not only could we have admitted them legally, we should have. In fact, there was no legitimate reason to close the legal door when all the figures show that Immigration from Mexico would necessarily have to increase due to the implementation of NAFTA. And, they have already become an integral part of the American economy.

I think verses are wonderful and apply to those described.

I do not see how they apply or do not apply to illegal immigrants any more or any less than many others. They would seem to apply to all. Illegal immigrants have no special standing in the framework of the message as far as I can see.

I still do not understand how those cuts from the Bible help place a useful perspective on the issues of illegal immigrants.

Whether our economy does or does not need workers does not make US immigration laws, rules and regulations in conflict with the Bible message you posted.

 

[Fremont]

THE “HUDDLED MASSES” MYTH: IMMIGRATION AND CIVIL RIGHTS, by Kevin R. Johnson. Philadelphia: Temple University Press, 2003. 264pp.

“The book presents a series of case studies showing how immigration policy and judicial actions, particularly those of the Supreme Court, have wielded racist intentions and forced racialized results. A chapter is devoted, respectively, to racial minorities per se, political undesirables, the poor, criminals, women, and lesbians and gays. In each chapter, Johnson draws upon case law to show how these groups have been cast as foreigners, racialized, and both physically and socially excluded from American citizenship. In each case, laws and policy have “ebbed and flowed with the immigration winds of the day” (p.109). In each case, actions have been based on dubious theories about the *842] characteristics of particular racialized groups, although the basis for racist assumptions has become more subtle over time. And, in each case, there has been a significant impact upon established communities of the same racial and ethnic backgrounds that goes beyond the simple application of immigration policy. The relationship between official actions in the name of immigration law and social actions in the name of civil society is a discursive one.”

bsos.umd.edu/gvpt/lpbr/subpages/reviews/hing-johnson1104.htm

I read your reference. It covers old history and social prejudices.

I found nothing that states our current immigration laws and policies are racist. I found nothing that shows that applicants are denied entry solely based on race, skin color ethnic background or gender.

I sure hope our immigration officers look at all immigrants more closely today than prior to 9/11 and I sure hope they use profiling to give even more intense scrutiny to some than others.

 

[Fremont]

I do not ignore nor do I reject the message in Mark, it simply does not apply to the actions of the “illegal” immigrant because “work” is not theft, contributing to our economy is not harm and the vast majority have obeyed our “Just” laws. There is no good reason for them to have been denied entry in the first place. Once more, natural Market forces have always served to control the influx of immigration from Mexico.

I never said “work” was theft and I do not think the message from St. Mark says that either.

As I see it the message talks about behaviors and does seem to say that bearing false witness and using fraud in the process of obtaining work or other material gains is wrong.

That message seems consistent with Church teaching that the ends do not justify the means.

 

[Jedi_Master]

1. If you must return Texas, California, etc., whence they came, I suggest you give them to Spain, which had them much longer than the piddly 10 years or so Mexico claimed them…

1821 to 1848 is not a piddly 10 years or so.
Spain was in control of California for about 52 years.
FYI: The Mexica people (or as the Spanish called them:Aztecs) migrated from Califonia and other southwestern states.

1. Christianity bids us be kind and to welcome our less fortunate brothers, but it does not bid us welcome them all at the same time…

Maybe you can give me a reference to this Christian belief.

1. Guests you welcome into your house deserve hospitality, but those who climb in the bathroom window or tunnel into the hallway when you are not looking only deserve arrest and eviction.

What a great analogy. Climbing into your bathroom window or tunneling into your hallway? Sounds more like those nasty analogies Chick Tracts have of Catholicism.

 

[Jedi_Master]

My issue is legal vs illegal.

Ilegal immigrants I am against. Do it the way everyone else has to.

My grandma married and thus was able to come over here almost 40 years ago. Her 7 sisters weren’t so lucky, but each one saved and studied and did all the paperwork, with the last one coming over here I think 5 years ago.

Burns me up to think of all the others that just crawl over here. They really are buying into the modern American dream of complete disregard for law and a nice touch of laziness.

I think immigrant policies need serious reform. I would really like to see America become more welcoming of immigrants and of making the process much simpler.

where is your Grandmother from?

 

[Jeffrey]

where is your Grandmother from?

 

[Fremont]

Are you being cute or just trying to take advantage of my innocence? Vatican City is a non-commercial economy. Most of the lay people that work there live outside of the City.

Economy - overview:
This unique, noncommercial economy is supported financially by an annual contribution from Roman Catholic dioceses throughout the world (known as Peter’s Pence); by the sale of postage stamps, coins, medals, and tourist mementos; by fees for admission to museums; and by the sale of publications. Investments and real estate income also account for a sizable portion of revenue. The incomes and living standards of lay workers are comparable to those of counterparts who work in the city of Rome.

I do not wish to get hung up on a minor point but no matter how you choose to label it virtually any Atlas recognizes Vatican City as country. Wikipedia defines Vatican City as a “Sovereign City-State” and “the smallest independent nation”.

This is supported by the facts that Vatican City has the functions and characteristics associated with a country. Vatican City has political borders recognized by the international community, it has the authority to issue passports and it conducts diplomatic relations with other nations. It has a government including a Head of State, a Secretary of State, a Governor as well as a military force and a police force to protect people and property.

The point here is that Vatican City does not recognize that any and all persons have the right to take up residence in Vatican City at will – permission from the government of Vatican City is required to do so. This is the case in the US and most other countries as well. There is nothing wrong about this.

These policies do not conflict with the scriptural message you posted.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_city

 

[Fremont]

THE “HUDDLED MASSES” MYTH: IMMIGRATION AND CIVIL RIGHTS, by Kevin R. Johnson. Philadelphia: Temple University Press, 2003. 264pp.

The facts do not support your claim, or anyone else’s claim, that US immigration laws are racist.

The facts are that the US welcomes about 1 million legal immigrants each year from all over the world. Preferential treatment is provided to immigrants from countries whose nationals are generally considered minorities in the US.

Fact: Over 80% of immigrants are from Latin America, South America, Asia and Africa.

Fact: Mexican nationals are the largest single group of immigrants, over twice as many as any other country.

The statistics can go on but the point is made. There is no basis for claims that current US immigration laws are racist or unfairly discriminate against any group based on skin color, race, ethnic background, etc.

 

[Ituyu]

I do not wish to get hung up on a minor point but no matter how you choose to label it virtually any Atlas recognizes Vatican City as country. Wikipedia defines Vatican City as a “Sovereign City-State” and “the smallest independent nation”.

This is supported by the facts that Vatican City has the functions and characteristics associated with a country. Vatican City has political borders recognized by the international community, it has the authority to issue passports and it conducts diplomatic relations with other nations. It has a government including a Head of State, a Secretary of State, a Governor as well as a military force and a police force to protect people and property.

The point here is that Vatican City does not recognize that any and all persons have the right to take up residence in Vatican City at will – permission from the government of Vatican City is required to do so. This is the case in the US and most other countries as well. There is nothing wrong about this.

These policies do not conflict with the scriptural message you posted.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_city

It’s simply not a country with a money making economy. Most go to another country to seek jobs. There are none there that a an “illegal” would qualify for. All the workers come from outside the Vatican so I guess you could say they have an all immigrant work force but I don’t know how many if any are “illegal”. Italy, last I heard, needs to add to its population too.

Don’t forget that by every measure related to its position as a “Nation” it is UNIQUE. There is not another country or economy like it.

 

[Ituyu]

The facts do not support your claim, or anyone else’s claim, that US immigration laws are racist.

The facts are that the US welcomes about 1 million legal immigrants each year from all over the world. Preferential treatment is provided to immigrants from countries whose nationals are generally considered minorities in the US.

Fact: Over 80% of immigrants are from Latin America, South America, Asia and Africa.

Fact: Mexican nationals are the largest single group of immigrants, over twice as many as any other country.

The statistics can go on but the point is made. There is no basis for claims that current US immigration laws are racist or unfairly discriminate against any group based on skin color, race, ethnic background, etc.

Hmm not enough for you huh?

How about:
DEFINING AMERICA THROUGH IMMIGRATION POLICY, by Bill Ong Hing. Philadelphia: Temple University Press, 2004. 336pp.

"Bill Ong Hing’s broad contention in DEFINING AMERICA THROUGH IMMIGRATION POLICY is that immigration policy has been used throughout American history, since its first iteration in the 17th Century, to define the American citizen. That citizen is white, predominantly of anglo-saxon heritage, and deserves cultural and economic privilege defined and sustained by legislative, policy, and political means. In a tour de force of detailed facts and legal citations, he wades through the complex legal measures that have guided immigration law and policy over more than two centuries, at each stage linking specific legal actions with dominant views of the “ordinary American.” "

bsos.umd.edu/gvpt/lpbr/subpages/reviews/hing-johnson1104.htm