TOTAL Blasphemy in the Episcopal Church

[gurneyhalleck1]

1. Katherine Jefferts Schori’s comments have been discussed elsewhere on these blogs. Taking the two quotes that were brought up, I understand exactly what she was saying, which is basically the same thing I’ve been saying for years: pop-evangelicalism tends towards Pelagianism.
2. What’s new about this? Look at the 39 Articles in the back of the Book of Common Prayer. Anglicans since Edward 6 have ALWAYS denied that Marriage is a sacrament.
3. Anglicans have been on the brink of schism since timetime of Elizabeth 1.

I don’t know about the third statement. In the second half of Elizabeth’s reign the Church of England was relatively stable and content, really at a high point. The only threats to the CofE were the puritans who got their orders from Geneva and the Catholic recusants in the North who sympathized with Rome. The actual Church went through a period of having guys like Richard Hooker who gave a lot of inspiration for church polity and Lancelot Andrewes, etc. The CofE also went through a mini-renaissance with the Tractarian movement and the days of guys like Vernon Staley, etc. There were more threats to Anglicanism from without than from within for centuries with the exception of the non-jurors, etc… It was in the 1900’s when the most divergence seems to have come along. Birth control, divorce, abortion mentality and eventually THE lighter fluid that caused a beginning of the end–women’s ordination!

 

[VARC]

Don’t be so sure. I spoke with a very high-up bishop who joined the ACNA but is considering himself becoming Roman Catholic and he is going to Mass regularly participating in everything except communion. And there are Anglicans I’ve read about online in many blogs who went to Rome. There are and will always be people coming to the Catholic Church. It’s not like there’s a fixed amount of Anglicans who would have already converted already. There’s no quota.

Most of the North Americans that would contemplate Rome are of the AngloCatholic variety. Most of them parted ways with TEC after WO almost 30 years ago. The Conservatives of today are the Anglo-evangelicals. Not very Roman oriented.

It depends on the politics. If an Anglo-Catholic/Anglo-Evangelical quasi-Elizabethian settlement should arise in NA, its influence could spread to the rest of the Communion. Also, the Orthodox and Rome, could help a NA anglican church gain legitimacy and put addition incentive against WO by ecumenical recognition, something that Canterbury wouldn’t be able to ignore.

.

 

[GKC]

Most of the North Americans that would contemplate Rome are of the AngloCatholic variety. Most of them parted ways with TEC after WO almost 30 years ago. The Conservatives of today are the Anglo-evangelicals. Not very Roman oriented.

It depends on the politics. If an Anglo-Catholic/Anglo-Evangelical quasi-Elizabethian settlement should arise in NA, its influence could spread to the rest of the Communion. Also, the Orthodox and Rome, could help a NA anglican church gain legitimacy and put addition incentive against WO by ecumenical recognition, something that Canterbury wouldn’t be able to ignore.

.

I agree with your first observation.

GKC

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Most of the North Americans that would contemplate Rome are of the AngloCatholic variety. Most of them parted ways with TEC after WO almost 30 years ago. The Conservatives of today are the Anglo-evangelicals. Not very Roman oriented.

It depends on the politics. If an Anglo-Catholic/Anglo-Evangelical quasi-Elizabethian settlement should arise in NA, its influence could spread to the rest of the Communion. Also, the Orthodox and Rome, could help a NA anglican church gain legitimacy and put addition incentive against WO by ecumenical recognition, something that Canterbury wouldn’t be able to ignore.

.

I’m just going on the fact that I meet Anglicans on CAF, in my ‘non-online’ life, and read about Anglicans all the time who are coming to Rome. My best friend and his wife became Roman Catholics and they had been Anglicans for years. Their friend, who was close to becoming an Anglican priest, is contemplating a move to Rome now as well. I read it on blogs online all the time and some high-profile bloggers have left Anglicanism for Rome. And I think some of the women’s ordination residue over time as well as the same-ole same-ole corruption of the Episcopal Church will creep into the ACNA and have the RCC tiber-driven effect. I’m just saying, don’t underestimate the amount of people who are inspired by the Roman Catholic Church on a daily basis in this country and convert and never think that there’s a quota of Anglicans who converted 30 years ago to more conservative Anglican branches who will stay fixed in that denomination forever. Like I said, there are actual Anglican bishops who have converted in recent years and one, as I mentioned, with whom I’ve been in communication for a while is considering it. I think if the ACNA had taken a hard stance on this women’s ordination rubbish and would’ve banned it across the board, they would’ve been set up for a stronger future and more stability. Instead, they kept the big elephant in the room and they’re feeding it bags of peanuts!

 

[VARC]

True. There are a couple of reasons why Continuers can’t unite, after they first shattered their new (ACNA it was in those days, too) Church. And a disinclination to reinvent the Elizabethan Compromise is one of them.

But the WO is the killer. And impaired communion, as opposed to six/two candles, just might be too much to ask. I wouldn’t look favorably on it, myself.

GKC

I believe that the Anglo-catholics have to try to exert thier influence on the current situation. If they sit on the sidelines they will watch their Anglican patramony die, at least on this continent. The ACNA requires male bishops. That is a start. The ACNA will at least in vaild apostolic succession in the catholic view. If Anglo-catholics united with conservative evangelicals, and got ecumenical help from Rome and the Orthodox, maybe even LCMS, then this issue has a much better chance of being favorably resolved. Divided, classical Anglicanism, with its high and low church balance, will die altogether. The anglo-catholics will be absorbed by Rome and the orthodox and the low churchers will split and become like non-denoms.

 

[BernadetteM]

Since I was an Episcopalian for most of my life, I can speak from my experience. When we left the Episcopal church and many of us became Catholic, the ones that stayed were not open minded about what the Catholic faith was. They just wanted everything to stay the same and have their beautiful building and liturgy.

VARC’s experience might be very different than mine as every parish in the Episcopal church had different views. Of course many were more Anglo Catholic, but there have been low church Episcopalians who have gone to Rome. There are many fundamentalists in the past several years who are now Catholic. Also it is not a coward’s way out to research the early Church Fathers and the beginning of the Church and in my case be guided by the Holy Spirit into the Catholic Church. Isn’t it more cowardly to either stay in TEC or start another church/denomination, that from what I have read is having the same problems that the Episcopal church has had? I don’t know the reasons for peoples’ decisions and it is none of my business where a person decides to worship, but I am not a coward many of the people and priests that I know that left TEC and became Catholic suffered, many greatly with the decision. I consider them brave not cowards to leave all behind for what they believe is TRUTH.

I did not state that all Episcopalians didn’t investigate the Catholic Church, but many had no desire to, they were comfortable where they were. Whether you are Episcopalian or another protestant denomination I think the most difficult part of becoming Catholic is submitting to the Church. Many people feel that they lose their freedom in submitting, but I found my freedom when I became Catholic. Catholics have a mind of their own and we don’t all agree, but there is a unity of spirit that is difficult to describe. The Catholics whom want what the Episcopal church has today, women priests, married priests and the freedom to believe whatevery they want should probably look into other churches to find the one that meets their needs. I would not expect to join a continuing Anglican church and insist on them changing their theology because that is what I believe, neither do I feel that so called Catholics should expect to reverse our doctrines and dogmas.

Of course there are Catholics who go to Mass just because that is how they were raised. But the same is true about protestants. I have many protestant friends who really have no idea what their churches believe, it is the life they know from childhood and are very unlikely to search further.

7 Sorrows, yes I am happy that my brother goes to church and I can’t judge his faith. When he was younger and in college he went through many doubts. He is also very liberal. Much of their involvement in the church has been being on the vestry or doing social works. We don’t discuss any of it, nor politics as we have never agreed on anything. I have no need to convince him or anyone that they need to follow my lead.

Of course if I didn’t think that the Catholic Church was truely Christ’s Church on earth I would not have entered it.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

 

[slyboots]

When our family left TEC in 1994 where we had all been extremely active (children in summer camps, youth groups, crop walks, my husband in men’s activities, myself in ECW, and I was the buyer/manager of the diocesan bookstore, the whole family at church every Sunday) it was after many years of prayer and study of Catholic teaching.
My spiritual director, an Episcopal priest, even told me it was the right thing.
However, the majority of people who discovered we were converting made remarks such as "And you are now going to check your brains at the door? " “Why would you let a man like the pope dictate your life?” “Marching back in time?” “Remember you won’t be able to ask any questions or think for yourself.”
Most of our friends were clergy having worked in the diocese for 8 years and been a parishioner at the Cathedral. Those comments came from them. There were many more disparaging remarks about “Mackrel snappers” and “Kisses for the Pope ( passing gas)”.
It was unbelieveable how juvenile, and how closed minded they became when one of their flock chose to leave them.

 

[VARC]

I didn’t mean to demean anglicans who genuinely believe the Roman Catholic faith and convert. What just blows my mind is the mentality that if my church is erring then I must go to Rome because they are infallible. Such thinking is a fallacious knee-jerk reaction. A third possiblity exists: they are both wrong. Each church’s doctrine has to judged on its own merits.

 

[Primox]

What nonsense.

Agreed.

 

[Hesychios]

I am going to stick my neck out here.

I am presuming that in Low Church theology the Real Presence in the Eucharist is not consistently professed, would I be correct?

It seems to me that if that is the case, it is the real problem. Women’s ordination can hardly compare to a dispute about the Real Presence.

If one does not believe that Jesus Christ is truly present in the Eucharist, by comparison it hardly matters what gender the celebrant is.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

1. Katherine Jefferts Schori’s comments have been discussed elsewhere on these blogs. Taking the two quotes that were brought up, I understand exactly what she was saying, which is basically the same thing I’ve been saying for years: pop-evangelicalism tends towards Pelagianism.
2. What’s new about this? Look at the 39 Articles in the back of the Book of Common Prayer. Anglicans since Edward 6 have ALWAYS denied that Marriage is a sacrament.
3. Anglicans have been on the brink of schism since timetime of Elizabeth 1.

I think you mistake the tenor of these threads. Only a very few want to discuss the issues elicited by BIshop Schori, the rest ignore it and just want to bash. So far two threads have been shut down by a couple of extremely uncharitible posters. We await real discipline being issued against those that are so hateful in their posting.

I would argue that we are no nearer schism that we were. We have done nothing except state the obvious that was apparently before the Convention. I think no one wants it to happen, and frankly I think it unlikely, but obviously I may well be wrong. In either case, TEC will continue to do the work Jesus set us about doing. We continue to adher to the believe that doctrine doesn’t fill empty bellies. I’m rather at a loss at those who maintain that we have gone too far in social justice. Just what is too far?

 

[GKC]

I am going to stick my neck out here.

I am presuming that in Low Church theology the Real Presence in the Eucharist is not consistently professed, would I be correct?

It seems to me that if that is the case, it is the real problem. Women’s ordination can hardly compare to a dispute about the Real Presence.

If one does not believe that Jesus Christ is truly present in the Eucharist, by comparison it hardly matters what gender the celebrant is.

There is no consistent doctrine of eucharistic theology in Anglicanism. For those who affirm, in any sense, the Real Presence and the sacerdotal priesthood, WO is a problem. A major one.

 

[emeraldcoast]

There is no consistent doctrine of eucharistic theology in Anglicanism. For those who affirm, in any sense, the Real Presence and the sacerdotal priesthood, WO is a problem. A major one.

The doctrine of the Real Presence is all that I have EVER heard in the Episcopal Church.

The following is from the Episcopal Church Website…
episcopalchurch.org/19625_14314_ENG_HTM.htm

Eucharist

The sacrament of Christ’s body and blood, and the principal act of Christian worship. The term is from the Greek, “thanksgiving.” Jesus instituted the eucharist “on the night when he was betrayed.” At the Last Supper he shared the bread and cup of wine at a sacred meal with his disciples. He identified the bread with his body and the wine with his blood of the new covenant. Jesus commanded his disciples to “do this” in remembrance of him (see 1 Cor 11:23-26; Mk 14:22-25; Mt 26:26-29; Lk 22:14-20). Christ’s sacrifice is made present by the eucharist, and in it we are united to his one self-offering (BCP, p. 859). The Last Supper provides the basis for the fourfold eucharistic action of taking, blessing, breaking, and sharing. Christ’s body and blood are really present in the sacrament of the eucharist and received by faith. Christ’s presence is also known in the gathered eucharistic community.
In the BCP, the whole service is entitled the Holy Eucharist. The first part of the service is designated the Word of God. It usually includes the entrance rite, the lessons and gradual psalm, the gospel, the sermon, the Nicene Creed, the prayers of the people, the confession of sin and absolution, and the peace. The second portion of the service is designated the Holy Communion. It includes the offertory, the consecration of the bread and wine in the Great Thanksgiving, the communion of the people, and the concluding prayers of thanksgiving and dismissal. A blessing may be given prior to the dismissal.

The eucharist is also called the Lord’s Supper, Holy Communion, the Divine Liturgy, the Mass, and the Great Offertory (BCP, p. 859). The Hymnal 1982 includes a section with a variety of hymns for the Holy Eucharist (300-347), including “Come, risen Lord, and deign to be our guest” (305-306), “My God, thy table now is spread” (321), “Now, my tongue, the mystery telling” (329-331), and “I am the bread of life” (335).

God Bless!

 

[RevDrNorth]

According to an Associated Press article, "George Wing, a theological conservative and delegate from the Diocese of Colorado, said he worries that the church’s liberal direction has caused active churchgoers to leave.

“The problem is, the most dedicated of the young people are evangelicals. They’re gone, and they’re not coming back,” Wing said".
news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_rel_episcopalians_gays

That is probably a fair assessment. Most of the young in many Christian denominations ARE evangelical. The old liberalism represented by the theological thought processes of the Episcopal Church (and many others) are not only lacking in biblical understanding but also left over from a couple of generations back. If you read Virtueonline.org you get a sense of the continuing loss of congregants the TEC is experiencing along with financial issues.

I feel somewhat sorry for those 25 orthodox Bishops mentioned but surely they saw this coming. A question for GKC and others would be what you think the chances are of the TEC being demoted to associate status within the Anglican Communion as was proposed in some circles a couple of years ago.

 

[VARC]

I was on another message board with episcopalians to learn there views on a possible schism in the AC. They actually welcomed the idea. They have no interest in maintaining communion with the primate of Nigeria, whom they view not only as a hateful anti-gay bigot but a fomenter of schism and an invader of their province, and those who are with them. They believe that communion cannot be artifically maintained with the 3rd world conservatives.

They want a schism and a new communion. This new communion would be made up of the Anglicans from US, Canada, the UK (England Scotland Wales Ireland), Spain and Portugal. They would be united to the Porvoo Communion including the evangelical Lutherans churches of USA, Canada, Finland, Sweden, Iceland, Norway, Lithuania, Estonia, and Latvia. In addition The Old Catholic Churches of the Utrech Union (Netherlands, Austria, Czech Republic) with its missions and dioceses and Italy, Germany, France, USA, Canada and Poland. This would roughly bring the new communion to 60 miilion members.

Pretty ambitious. The stage is really already set as many of these enties are alraedy in full sacramental communion with each other. They are not afraid of schism. They are counting on it. “Out with the old in with the new” is the sense I was getting from them.

 

[GKC]

According to an Associated Press article, "George Wing, a theological conservative and delegate from the Diocese of Colorado, said he worries that the church’s liberal direction has caused active churchgoers to leave.

“The problem is, the most dedicated of the young people are evangelicals. They’re gone, and they’re not coming back,” Wing said".
news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_rel_episcopalians_gays

That is probably a fair assessment. Most of the young in many Christian denominations ARE evangelical. The old liberalism represented by the theological thought processes of the Episcopal Church (and many others) are not only lacking in biblical understanding but also left over from a couple of generations back. If you read Virtueonline.org you get a sense of the continuing loss of congregants the TEC is experiencing along with financial issues.

I feel somewhat sorry for those 25 orthodox Bishops mentioned but surely they saw this coming. A question for GKC and others would be what you think the chances are of the TEC being demoted to associate status within the Anglican Communion as was proposed in some circles a couple of years ago.

It is beyond the range of my crystal ball. I do expect something to result, and, these being Anglicans, I expect it to be preceded by a great deal of talk. But what, in the end, will happen, I don’t know.

On a microscopic scale, I find many sad and tearful reactions, of individual Episcopalians who are even now declaring their intent, on boards, to depart and join with the ACNA. This I would expect, and not many going to the Continuum.

GKC

 

[GKC]

The doctrine of the Real Presence is all that I have EVER heard in the Episcopal Church.

The following is from the Episcopal Church Website…
episcopalchurch.org/19625_14314_ENG_HTM.htm

Eucharist

The sacrament of Christ’s body and blood, and the principal act of Christian worship. The term is from the Greek, “thanksgiving.” Jesus instituted the eucharist “on the night when he was betrayed.” At the Last Supper he shared the bread and cup of wine at a sacred meal with his disciples. He identified the bread with his body and the wine with his blood of the new covenant. Jesus commanded his disciples to “do this” in remembrance of him (see 1 Cor 11:23-26; Mk 14:22-25; Mt 26:26-29; Lk 22:14-20). Christ’s sacrifice is made present by the eucharist, and in it we are united to his one self-offering (BCP, p. 859). The Last Supper provides the basis for the fourfold eucharistic action of taking, blessing, breaking, and sharing. Christ’s body and blood are really present in the sacrament of the eucharist and received by faith. Christ’s presence is also known in the gathered eucharistic community.
In the BCP, the whole service is entitled the Holy Eucharist. The first part of the service is designated the Word of God. It usually includes the entrance rite, the lessons and gradual psalm, the gospel, the sermon, the Nicene Creed, the prayers of the people, the confession of sin and absolution, and the peace. The second portion of the service is designated the Holy Communion. It includes the offertory, the consecration of the bread and wine in the Great Thanksgiving, the communion of the people, and the concluding prayers of thanksgiving and dismissal. A blessing may be given prior to the dismissal.

The eucharist is also called the Lord’s Supper, Holy Communion, the Divine Liturgy, the Mass, and the Great Offertory (BCP, p. 859). The Hymnal 1982 includes a section with a variety of hymns for the Holy Eucharist (300-347), including “Come, risen Lord, and deign to be our guest” (305-306), “My God, thy table now is spread” (321), “Now, my tongue, the mystery telling” (329-331), and “I am the bread of life” (335).

God Bless!

In general, I think that the majority of Anglicans do affirm the Real Presence, in some form. Precisely what form, up to and including Trent, Session XIII, canon 1, can vary. As can what it takes to achieve that valid Eucharist. It is that latter point that makes WO a major issue.

GKC

 

[7_Sorrows]

According to an Associated Press article, "George Wing, a theological conservative and delegate from the Diocese of Colorado, said he worries that the church’s liberal direction has caused active churchgoers to leave.

“The problem is, the most dedicated of the young people are evangelicals. They’re gone, and they’re not coming back,” Wing said".
news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_rel_episcopalians_gays

That is probably a fair assessment. Most of the young in many Christian denominations ARE evangelical. The old liberalism represented by the theological thought processes of the Episcopal Church (and many others) are not only lacking in biblical understanding but also left over from a couple of generations back. If you read Virtueonline.org you get a sense of the continuing loss of congregants the TEC is experiencing along with financial issues.

I feel somewhat sorry for those 25 orthodox Bishops mentioned but surely they saw this coming. A question for GKC and others would be what you think the chances are of the TEC being demoted to associate status within the Anglican Communion as was proposed in some circles a couple of years ago.

i am a Catholic now, but 5 or 6 years ago i was following this very close until 2008.
i do think there is a good chance that the TEC could be demoted to associate status within the anglican communion because they seem very defiant in sticking to what they want to believe in. there are still some very good people remaining in the episcopal church, but i cannot say for certain what the future holds.

 

[7_Sorrows]

the sad part is that still there are so many groups within the anglican communion.

it is all very confusing. i don’t know if they will be able to be united.

 

[emeraldcoast]

In general, I think that the majority of Anglicans do affirm the Real Presence, in some form. Precisely what form, up to and including Trent, Session XIII, canon 1, can vary. As can what it takes to achieve that valid Eucharist. It is that latter point that makes WO a major issue.

GKC

GKC,

My understanding from all of your post is that you are part of a break-away Church that left over women becoming priests back in the 70s. From what I see, as an Episcopalian, the train left the station over women’s ordination then and you were either on the train or you were left at the station. I honestly do not see women’s ordination as the “major issue” of the day… What is your opinion of women deacons in the Church?

God Bless!