TOTAL Blasphemy in the Episcopal Church

[7_Sorrows]

I agree. I think the Gene Robinson “consecration” to the episcopacy was the ultimate cherry on top of a sundae that was already full of pesticides and rat poison. My wife and I had been feeling a draw back to the Catholic Church steadily just thinking of Mary, reading and hearing Catholic media, and when we’d go to the Philippines (where my wife is from) we’d go to Mass, etc. We missed being Catholic but we were so in love with our Anglican (then Episcopal) parish. We loved our priest, the people, the quaint and lovely brick building (looked like it came STRAIGHT from England!) with ivy on it and gorgeous stained glass, the LOVELY LITURGY of the Book of Common Prayer, and the pastoral care was first rate. We missed also the fellowship and kind, enthusiastic, loving people there. And the birth control issue was a sticking point with us, bigtime.

But at a bible study I remember our priest talking about cohabitation and how regularly he counsels people cohabitating. A woman raised her hand and said, “my son is living with a girl. She’s just wonderful. They’re doing a trial marriage and have been together for a couple of years now. They’re very happy and I’m happy for them.” The priest just smiled and said something like, “well that goes on a lot and it’s the norm really now days.” He seemed upbeat and accepting of it? Then they were talking about premarital sex in a positive light? And then divorce at another Bible study came up and they skirted around it like it’s just fine? And then our priest was discussing the Old Testament, Moses in particular and he said that the Ten Commandments and the other commandments of the Law including many sexual laws were really Jewish secular laws, not religious ones and they were mostly given by God to maintain order, reproduction, keep people healthy, etc. etc.??? And as I spoke to people, everyone seemed just fine about the possibility of one day having a woman priest. A whole bunch of them believed women priests was an exciting possibility. I was also disappointed to see how many of them criticized our OUTSTANDING bishop, John David Schofield, who is a hero to me still. They acted like he was a bigot for forbidding “laying hands on hairspray” to coin GKC’s phrase (I just love that! lol)…One woman at our church WHO WAS THE CITY MAYOR (our town is about 120,000 people) said she thought homosexuality was fine, natural, and that our Bishop was gay himself, a closet homosexual who has a hidden self-hatred!?? She bashed our bishop and said he was a fat hate-mongering boob. She just ticked me off to no end!

Depending on who you talked to, they all had different views of the Eucharist and had ZERO knowledge of Church history. I quickly came to the conclusion that most of them could have easily fit into a Baptist or Presbyterian church and wouldn’t know the difference save the vestments and building. They were mostly VERY protestant, not at all cut from the same stuff as GKC’s parish, which sounds LOVELY and highly Catholic in nature.

When Gene Robinson and the wackos took over, especially when Katherine Jefforts Dracula Schiori ascended to the throne, my wife and I felt even more clearly that the Holy Spirit was calling us outskee!!

We left and went back to the Catholic Church. I truly miss that liturgy, the BOCP, the coffee hours and the tight-knit pastoral care. I miss that place. And I’ve struggled with some Catholic issues. I have definitely made use of confession! But I love my faith and try my best in this norvus ordo liturgy. It is what it is.

Tonight my wife and I went out to eat for our 10th Wedding Anniversary. We went over to the new adoration chapel, too, and we thanked the Lord for each other and these three munchkins we have. God is so good to us.

I don’t think leaving Anglicanism is ever an easy thing. It is highly charming, beautiful in so many ways, and classy. But the Episcopal Church has made its brand of Anglicanism a no-brainer to leave! Anaheim’s convention is making it no-brainer 2.0 reloaded!!

yes, sometimes i really miss the fellowship and the coffe hours. i really cherished my BOCP. i had one that included the hymnal and i had a couple of other ones. i have only been a Catholic for one year, so i also still struggle, but then when i read what just happened at the convention in Anaheim, i am glad i don’t have to worry about that stuff anymore. i do wish the best for all of the new anglican churches that are forming and i hope that the different anglican groups will be able to unite and possibly one day reunite with Rome. i have never attended an anglican use mass, but i have heard many good things about them.

 

[GKC]

I agree. I think the Gene Robinson “consecration” to the episcopacy was the ultimate cherry on top of a sundae that was already full of pesticides and rat poison. My wife and I had been feeling a draw back to the Catholic Church steadily just thinking of Mary, reading and hearing Catholic media, and when we’d go to the Philippines (where my wife is from) we’d go to Mass, etc. We missed being Catholic but we were so in love with our Anglican (then Episcopal) parish. We loved our priest, the people, the quaint and lovely brick building (looked like it came STRAIGHT from England!) with ivy on it and gorgeous stained glass, the LOVELY LITURGY of the Book of Common Prayer, and the pastoral care was first rate. We missed also the fellowship and kind, enthusiastic, loving people there. And the birth control issue was a sticking point with us, bigtime.

But at a bible study I remember our priest talking about cohabitation and how regularly he counsels people cohabitating. A woman raised her hand and said, “my son is living with a girl. She’s just wonderful. They’re doing a trial marriage and have been together for a couple of years now. They’re very happy and I’m happy for them.” The priest just smiled and said something like, “well that goes on a lot and it’s the norm really now days.” He seemed upbeat and accepting of it? Then they were talking about premarital sex in a positive light? And then divorce at another Bible study came up and they skirted around it like it’s just fine? And then our priest was discussing the Old Testament, Moses in particular and he said that the Ten Commandments and the other commandments of the Law including many sexual laws were really Jewish secular laws, not religious ones and they were mostly given by God to maintain order, reproduction, keep people healthy, etc. etc.??? And as I spoke to people, everyone seemed just fine about the possibility of one day having a woman priest. A whole bunch of them believed women priests was an exciting possibility. I was also disappointed to see how many of them criticized our OUTSTANDING bishop, John David Schofield, who is a hero to me still. They acted like he was a bigot for forbidding “laying hands on hairspray” to coin GKC’s phrase (I just love that! lol)…One woman at our church WHO WAS THE CITY MAYOR (our town is about 120,000 people) said she thought homosexuality was fine, natural, and that our Bishop was gay himself, a closet homosexual who has a hidden self-hatred!?? She bashed our bishop and said he was a fat hate-mongering boob. She just ticked me off to no end!

Depending on who you talked to, they all had different views of the Eucharist and had ZERO knowledge of Church history. I quickly came to the conclusion that most of them could have easily fit into a Baptist or Presbyterian church and wouldn’t know the difference save the vestments and building. They were mostly VERY protestant, not at all cut from the same stuff as GKC’s parish, which sounds LOVELY and highly Catholic in nature.

When Gene Robinson and the wackos took over, especially when Katherine Jefforts Dracula Schiori ascended to the throne, my wife and I felt even more clearly that the Holy Spirit was calling us outskee!!

We left and went back to the Catholic Church. I truly miss that liturgy, the BOCP, the coffee hours and the tight-knit pastoral care. I miss that place. And I’ve struggled with some Catholic issues. I have definitely made use of confession! But I love my faith and try my best in this norvus ordo liturgy. It is what it is.

Tonight my wife and I went out to eat for our 10th Wedding Anniversary. We went over to the new adoration chapel, too, and we thanked the Lord for each other and these three munchkins we have. God is so good to us.

I don’t think leaving Anglicanism is ever an easy thing. It is highly charming, beautiful in so many ways, and classy. But the Episcopal Church has made its brand of Anglicanism a no-brainer to leave! Anaheim’s convention is making it no-brainer 2.0 reloaded!!

With respect to my parish, as described, and in the interest of full disclosure, not all parishioners are quite as high, or as Anglo-Catholic, as the Mass I described, and the rubrics, etc, might imply. (Of course not. We’re talking about Anglicans, here) Maybe 20%-25% of attendees on a given Sunday are not comfortable with the high ecclesiology or the more Catholic of the doctrines, and attend an earlier Morning Prayer/Communion each Sunday. This way they don’t have to participate in the Angelus/Regina Coeli, or occasional Benediction, etc. Though normally the reverencing of the altar will be about the same.

GKC

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

great post. good for you.

the exciting thing for us catholics is that our best years are ahead of us. the 1960s and 1970s were a disaster, but our new priests and sisters don’t want anything to do with liberalism. the future is bright!

Thanks, Captain! I agree with you. I remember as a young kid, heck, even into my twenties, the line at confession was PATHETIC at St. Mary’s, our parish here. We have about 6000 at our parish. You’d see this puny line. After a decade or so of new evangelism, the new and vibrant Catholic media EWTN/Catholic Answers, and on and on, and the Holy Spirit of course, on confession days you’ll see around 60-70 all together in different lines for confession. On Ash Wednesday it is SRO and throughout Lent the Stations are well-attended, rosaries are seeing better attendance, there is now a new adoration chapel that is very well-visited, and there are youth groups, VBS, more deacons, and generally Masses are always packed.

I think we’re seeing a renaissance like you said. Those nay-sayers that claim the sky is falling for Catholicism and that female priests, married clergy, an openness to abortion, and all this stuff are soon to be accepted and ok in the Catholic Church are definitely on drugs! lol…What’s bringing folks to Catholicism is the awakening that the libertine mentality in America is what’s killing our spirituality, not boundaries and spiritual discipline. I think the thing that kept me from being Catholic for quite some time was OBEDIENCE. We Americans are a feisty, independent, stubborn lot. We don’t like boundaries, being told how to live, or authority. It’s our protestant, revolutionary heritage. But the Holy Spirit was more stubborn for me than I was and He won out!

 

[GKC]

it might lead you to develop a devotion to mary, which might lead to some other changes.

It is not likely, though I thank you. Though I am very fond of singing the Angelus, and I gave an appointment for our Mary Shrine (OL of Walsingham, to whom our assistant priest has a particular devotion).

GKC

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

With respect to my parish, as described, and in the interest of full disclosure, not all parishioners are quite as high, or as Anglo-Catholic, as the Mass I described, and the rubrics, etc, might imply. (Of course not. We’re talking about Anglicans, here) Maybe 20%-25% of attendees on a given Sunday are not comfortable with the high ecclesiology or the more Catholic of the doctrines, and attend an earlier Morning Prayer/Communion each Sunday. This way they don’t have to participate in the Angelus/Regina Coeli, or occasional Benediction, etc. Though normally the reverencing of the altar will be about the same.

GKC

Good thing I knew what you were talking about, Jim! I love what you said, “not all parishoners are quite as high!” That DOES sound like the 60’s! lol

Well, I’m not surprised by your description of the demographics. Anglicans, as you always correctly point out, are a varied and diverse, colorful lot!

I remember EVERY YEAR at Christmas they’d have the midnight service at St. Paul’s, our old parish. All these Episcopalians would pile into this charming brick edifice and we’d sing Christmas carols so loud the San Andreas Fault would shake. We had this awesome, lovely Christmas service. But there was one WEIRD THING I always noticed. There was this guy, and I swear to you, I’m not making this up, wearing a court jester’s outfit. No, it was NOT a Christmas outfit. It was a court jester’s renaissance festival getup and the guy had a big bushy beard, eccentric look on his face, hooked nose, and this bell dangling from his jester’s cap. Oh man, talk about distracting! I thought it was a flook until the next year came and the next year and the next year and each year he took out that suit and wore it for Christmas.

At a fellowship get-together I asked the rector’s wife, what’s up with that bushy beard guy in the crazy getup at Christmas? “Oh you mean John? Yeah, the court jester outfit. Yep, he wears that every year at Christmas.”

I replied, “any reason?”

She said back, “it’s just his way. He’s a little different.”

That left me scratching my head…

And then there was the guy who went up for communion at the rail and then bragged at coffee hour about how he didn’t believe in the Eucharist one bit. He said he was a unitarian universalist and that the Eucharist was silly nonsense, he only came because his wife was Anglican. He told the rector and everyone this yet received each week? I thought that was lousy…

Eclectic bunch… lol

 

[GKC]

Good thing I knew what you were talking about, Jim! I love what you said, “not all parishoners are quite as high!” That DOES sound like the 60’s! lol

Well, I’m not surprised by your description of the demographics. Anglicans, as you always correctly point out, are a varied and diverse, colorful lot!

I remember EVERY YEAR at Christmas they’d have the midnight service at St. Paul’s, our old parish. All these Episcopalians would pile into this charming brick edifice and we’d sing Christmas carols so loud the San Andreas Fault would shake. We had this awesome, lovely Christmas service. But there was one WEIRD THING I always noticed. There was this guy, and I swear to you, I’m not making this up, wearing a court jester’s outfit. No, it was NOT a Christmas outfit. It was a court jester’s renaissance festival getup and the guy had a big bushy beard, eccentric look on his face, hooked nose, and this bell dangling from his jester’s cap. Oh man, talk about distracting! I thought it was a flook until the next year came and the next year and the next year and each year he took out that suit and wore it for Christmas.

At a fellowship get-together I asked the rector’s wife, what’s up with that bushy beard guy in the crazy getup at Christmas? “Oh you mean John? Yeah, the court jester outfit. Yep, he wears that every year at Christmas.”

I replied, “any reason?”

She said back, “it’s just his way. He’s a little different.”

That left me scratching my head…

And then there was the guy who went up for communion at the rail and then bragged at coffee hour about how he didn’t believe in the Eucharist one bit. He said he was a unitarian universalist and that the Eucharist was silly nonsense, he only came because his wife was Anglican. He told the rector and everyone this yet received each week? I thought that was lousy…

Eclectic bunch… lol

It would have happened precisely once, in our parish. The rector says he doesn’t hold an inquisition at the altar rail. If someone presents himself and seems to know the routine, he communicates him, absent anything known against him. But if the rector had known, he would have given the jerk a blessing, only.

Court jester. That’s odd, even by our standards. Maybe he was thinking of Our Lady’s Juggler.

GKC

 

[IowaJay]

I remember EVERY YEAR at Christmas they’d have the midnight service at St. Paul’s, our old parish. All these Episcopalians would pile into this charming brick edifice and we’d sing Christmas carols so loud the San Andreas Fault would shake.

In my experience, less than 100 Lutherans or Episcopalians at a worship service will sing much louder than a Catholic mass with 300+ in attendance.

 

[captainmike]

It is not likely, though I thank you. Though I am very fond of singing the Angelus, and I gave an appointment for our Mary Shrine (OL of Walsingham, to whom our assistant priest has a particular devotion).

GKC

mary is the key difference between protestants like yourself and catholics. there are many differences, but she is the main one.

 

[captainmike]

In my experience, less than 100 Lutherans or Episcopalians at a worship service will sing much louder than a Catholic mass with 300+ in attendance.

maybe true. in my experience, though, the christians who are changing the world for the better are catholic.

 

[GKC]

mary is the key difference between protestants like yourself and catholics. there are many differences, but she is the main one.

Possibly. I don’t see it that way, but I don’t answer to the term protestant, either.

I have no objection if you so refer to me, but I hold to, as our rector referenced about 4 times in the sermon today, “Catholic”.

Benedict and Bartholomew were also prayed for, among the faithful bishops, at Mass.

GKC

Anglicanus Catholicus

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

In my experience, less than 100 Lutherans or Episcopalians at a worship service will sing much louder than a Catholic mass with 300+ in attendance.

I wouldn’t disagree with that at all. But it also depends on which Mass you go to. At my church the 5:30pm Saturday Vigil Mass is a DUD! Maybe 1 in every 15 people is singing. But try going to the 4pm Vigil Mass right before that and EVERYONE is singing like crazy! The 11:30am Sunday Mass is great, too. It really depends.

But it’s also fascinating to take 100 Lutherans or Episcopalians and quiz them on the Bible and they’re not much better or maybe a wash or maybe even worse than the common Catholic with regard to Bible knowledge. It blew my mind how the common Episcopalian had such a skant, weak command of Scripture. And my Lutheran friends aren’t much better.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

maybe true. in my experience, though, the christians who are changing the world for the better are catholic.

Well you don’t see Episcopalians taking on moral relativism, that’s for sure! And Lutherans are so divided these days, too. The Evangelical Lutheran Church of America is the biggest Lutheran group, and they caucus with the Episcopal Church so they’re liberal as heck. You can write them off. The Missouri Synod and I think Wisconsin Synod are the two more orthodox groups left.

When you get down to it, the man sitting down with Obama encouraging him to embrace life, stop abortion, and respect morality is THE POPE…

 

[SpiritMeadow]

As an Evangelical Anglican, I certainly understand your perspective. The liberal wing of the Church tells us that God is love and therefore if we are united in love, we are in communion with God and with each other.

Yet you should also understand from our perspective that God is holy and just. We believe that the TEC is essentially mocking God and His Word. St. Paul is very clear in telling us not to have communion with an errant brother who will not listen to fraternal corrections.

The TEC is outside of orthodoxy on some very important issues (eg the uniqueness of Christ) and therefore outside of communion with the saints. I pray that it will return home soon.

I respect you beliefs. We of course see it quite the opposite, that it is mocking God and ignoring Jesus to refuse access to all at the table. We believe Jesus calls us to radical inclusion and that we follow him by doing the same. I suspect at bottom we have a radically different approach to how to interpret scripture. We tend to follow the best in scholarly interpretation, such that a good deal of Paul is to me at least, and to many liberals "deutero-Paul, not written by him at all, but well after his death, and well after the “church” started to look out to gain control over other voices.

I guess the whole issue is who is in fact errant. We would claim you are, you the opposite. Since nobody is likely to change, and no one realistically can “prove” the other conclusively wrong to everyone’s satisfaction, perhaps it is best to be loving tolerant at least in our speech.

Orthodoxy is of course all in the definition. It has changed to mean essentially who is in power. All others are not. In our case, both sides claim orthodoxy no doubt.

Blessings, and thanks for civil converstation.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

I said:

Sadly, the non-Catholic forum seems determined to be nothing more than a divisive finger pointing section rather than a place to actually discuss issues.

Hmmm and what should I think of this comment?

You can make this of it. A thread has been closed, and most would conclude because of one person who’s unseemly behavior was over the top and complained of by more than one of us. Another was “magically” moved to somewhere I can’t find. Again, the same person was complained about. I know for a fact that several complaints have gone in by multiple persons, and I have written the forum administrator. I have received no answer, NONE.

I was penalized here with “points” for using the word “neo-con” which is not offensive and is merely short for neo-conservative. Yet all manner of making fun of TEC can take place by a Catholic without any repercussions. Apparently this is okay.

Lets not condemn “finger pointing” by doing more of it. I read the links and have not cast any venom.

And that is why I used the word “most”. One need only address the title of the thread to see the intent of the OP. It had nothing to do with discussion, but was simply to initiate a forum to demonize a church. That seems to be what passes for discussion. I have no better truck with Protestants who say nasty things about the RCC. I avoid those discussions as should everyone.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

i don’t see anywhere in my post that was racist. when i reiterated what the other poster had sad about TEC seeing Africa as backward (he was using sarcasm) - i didn’t mean culturally, i was referring to their traditional belief in the Gospel and its teaching. they are very conservative and do not think that the Bible can be interpreted liberally as does the TEC.
i am very happy to hear that your church has a good relationship with one of the African anglican churches. that is positive. episcopalians are very good people. very giving.
i am basing my opinion on what i learned while being an anglican and seeing how the anglican churches are in Africa. i didn’t mean to sound cruel, and if i did i apologize.

The claims you made against TEC would make them racist in their orientation to the African church. As I see it. But I think your statement more than adequate to let the matter rest. No apology required. I hold no animus.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

I, OTOH, consider the thread title to be an understatement worthy of an Anglican in its moderation.

GKC

I understand at least from your brand of Anglicanism. But it was not said by an Anglican of any stripe. It was started to incite the usual arguments quite plainly and give forum to the usual players who have personal issues to unload upon us all.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

The only problem is that there are plenty of Orthodox Episcopal Churches out there that want to open the dialog. I heard a Methodist pastor put it this way last Christmas and I tend to agree with him. It is not about who gets the right theology. God does not require that. The only thing that God requires is that we believe that God sent God’s son to die for us.
Now I read earlier post that said that the orthodox Anglicans should run to Rome. The only problem I have with that is that the last time I visited a Roman Catholic Church I had one person speak to me. And that was an older lady who had dropped her umbrella and I picked it up for her. I value a church where I can actually talk to people and actually participate in the life of the church. Not one where the only words you hear are thank you for picking this up for me.

I would agree in large part. The issue of whose theology is right is where we are all off track. I would argue that Jesus taught us how to be in right relationship with God, and that was by loving God and loving neighbor. We do that by social action to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, heal the sick etc. Jesus was radical in his choice of friends and whom he had table with. He taught us that before God, none of that matters. It’s what we do for each other. While we sit in the sanctuary and debate faith versus works, Jesus sits in the kitchen dishing up food at the shelter.

 

[7_Sorrows]

The claims you made against TEC would make them racist in their orientation to the African church. As I see it. But I think your statement more than adequate to let the matter rest. No apology required. I hold no animus.

i don’t see how you bring racism into this thread from my post. that certainly isn’t helpful.
it is understandable to be defensive if someone is not in agreement with your religion, but let’s not go overboard here.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

i don’t see how you bring racism into this thread from my post. that certainly isn’t helpful.
it is understandable to be defensive if someone is not in agreement with your religion, but let’s not go overboard here./QUOTE"

I guess it would be best if you asked an African American to explain it. What you claimed against the TEC would mean that we were in fact racist. Looking down on people as undeducated and somehow “third world” because they need to be “enlightened” by liberals is racist in tone and would be taken that way by Africans certainly.

But no mind, I mean this not against you, but this whole site so sickens me again, I’m out of here. Clearly CAF is prepared to have the likes of Gurneyhalleck as their “face” and that is fine with me. You all sit back and applaud his remarks when he references our Presiding Bishop as Dracula. How very Christian. Now I can see why people are flocking to be Catholics. What an utter disservice to the Roman Catholic Church.

 

[GKC]

I understand at least from your brand of Anglicanism. But it was not said by an Anglican of any stripe. It was started to incite the usual arguments quite plainly and give forum to the usual players who have personal issues to unload upon us all.

Since I knew it was not said by an Anglican, my comment was worded as it was.

GKC