Total depravity vs Catholic view- scripture verses?

[wolfpup]

Ok, if I can just explain my understanding of Catholic teaching. If it’s wrong, please correct me.

Every one of us is created in the “image and likeness of God”, and yet because of original sin this image has been corrupted. Jesus is the perfect image of God and by the merits and grace of his life, death, and resurrection this image that we each hold can be purified and made holy. As I understand it, this is the process of sanctification.
Calvinism states that we are born in Total Depravity, totally unable to seek God or please him in any way with the grace of his son. So there is no “image” before being born into Christ. The original image has been lost at the fall.

If I have got the Catholic view wrong then this is probably where my confusion rests, because it seems that Catholicism teaches that there is some part of us, though corrupted and covered that is inherently good.

If someone could explain the difference between the two views, then that would be very helpful, especially with scripture verses to show that we are not born Totally Depraved.

 

[NeedImprovement]

There isn’t really any “short reply” that will make sense in terms of an in depth explanation and of how sin must be seen in the context of the Redemption and also how original sin must be seen in context with personal sin.

A link is provided below to a page of the Catechism of the Catholic Church which will give you a good overview to start with. Four pertinent excerpted sections precede the link. For scriptural references, some are inferred in the sections themselves, quite a few others with precise scriptural coordinates can be referenced from the footnotes :

Excerpts from CCC:

*405 Although it is proper to each individual,original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam’s descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called “concupiscence”. Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ’s grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.

406 The Church’s teaching on the transmission of original sin was articulated more precisely in the fifth century, especially under the impulse of St. Augustine’s reflections against Pelagianism, and in the sixteenth century, in opposition to the Protestant Reformation. Pelagius held that man could, by the natural power of free will and without the necessary help of God’s grace, lead a morally good life; he thus reduced the influence of Adam’s fault to bad example. The first Protestant reformers, on the contrary, taught that original sin has radically perverted man and destroyed his freedom; they identified the sin inherited by each man with the tendency to evil (concupiscentia), which would be insurmountable. The Church pronounced on the meaning of the data of Revelation on original sin especially at the second Council of Orange (529) and at the Council of Trent (1546).

407 The doctrine of original sin, closely connected with that of redemption by Christ, provides lucid discernment of man’s situation and activity in the world. By our first parents’ sin, the devil has acquired a certain domination over man, even though man remains free. Original sin entails “captivity under the power of him who thenceforth had the power of death, that is, the devil”. Ignorance of the fact that man has a wounded nature inclined to evil gives rise to serious errors in the areas of education, politics, social action and morals.

408 The consequences of original sin and of all men’s personal sins put the world as a whole in the sinful condition aptly described in St. John’s expression, “the sin of the world”. This expression can also refer to the negative influence exerted on people by communal situations and social structures that are the fruit of men’s sins. *

More of the page cited above at this link .

… Hope this will help clarify the Catholic perspective somewhat for you.

 

[Salvatore123]

+1 for what NeedImprovement said

In addition, regarding your request for biblical verses, note that the Church specifically condemned as heresy the teachings of Calvin with regard to man’s “total depravity” and that “salvation was only for the predestined”.

The Divine Will of salvation is available for ALL of the faithful. This is specifically mentioned in the profession of faith we pray each Sunday.

Regarding scripture:

In lamenting for Jerusalem, Christ showed his desire for the salvation of all who sin. Matt. 23.37 and Luke 19.41.

Even God himself desires the salvation of all the faithful, “for he gave his only begotten Son that whoever believes in him may not perish.” John 3.16.

And we see God’s desire that salvation covers all people, in the passage, “God will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” 1 Tim. 2.4.

I hope the above helps.

P.S. - I have been told by man in-laws (Southern Baptists) how they “feel sorry” for us Catholics because “we don’t know we are saved”. My responses have always been:

(1) It is pretty presumptuous to say you KNOW what only God knows (and the Church, through its canonization of saints) - who will and will not be with him in Heaven.

(2) To characterize one’s self as a “totally depraved creature” puts man lower than the animals of creation, as even they are good in and of themselves, if for no other reason than simply because God made them.

It is, quite frankly, abominable to call God’s greatest creation - man made in his own image - “totally depraved”.

Totally dependent upon God for ultimate salvation is one thing - equating that need by man as being, essentially, a “low life”, is deplorable.

 

[rcjones]

There is a short answer.

We love him because he first loved us. Forget all the theological stuff. We respond to him as a courted woman. He chose us, he woos (calls ) us, he worked for us, and he gathers us. We respond by saying “I do”. We become his bride.

It is impossible for us to do anything first because he first loved us. Even before he created us.

To speculate if there is anything in us which is capable of seeking him, loving him , or offering him anything first is simply silly because in fact he first loved us.

 

[Timonator348]

The Catechism is far better at explaining this than myself but I have had many discussions about this as well as predestination and, as he adheres to the Calvinist theology on these matters I think I have a general understanding of what is taught by both sides. I know the Church simply puts it that because of Original Sin all humans are in a state of increased likely hood to sin but God did not create us bad. I’ve explained it like a genetic disorder which is inherited from father (Adam) to all his sons and daughters which makes all of us very susceptible to a certain disease (sin). Fortunately for us God provides a cure by his grace through the passion and death of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Catholics also believe in “Grace alone” salvation but not this idea that humans are totally deprived or created inherently bad. Only by being aided with God’s grace may be we saved by our faith and our works.

Hope this helps.

 

[Salvatore123]

Timonator,

The problem lies in the distinction that Catholics make regarding salvation from Protestants.

Catholics “break down” what I call ultimate salvation (that is, reaching heaven) into two “steps”: Redemption and Salvation

Redemption could NOT be performed by man. Redemption (which means, quite literally, a “buying back”) of man was performed by Christ through his Passion. Remember that the smallest sin against an Infinite being such as God, produced an infinite harm. Thus, a finite being such as man could not “cure” that infinite harm. As a result, Christ suffered the Passion to redeem mankind.

But that does not end the process for us Catholics. We believe that although we have been redeemed by Jesus’s Passion, whether we wanted it or not (it applies to all), WE must still “work out our salvation with fear and trembling”. In other words, we humans must cooperate with God in working out our salvation. And working out our salvation IS something man can do, through faith and good works as demonstrating such faith.

Protestants, on the other hand, do not distinguish between redemption and salvation. They believe that Christ’s Passion brought about redemption AND salvation together, and that if we simply believe that “Jesus Christ is our personal Lord and Savior”, then God bestows the grace of salvation upon us and we are “saved”.

 

[Cachonga]

Question - Why did God destroy the Earth in a great flood?
Answer - Because men were wicked, and all the thought of their heart was bent upon evil at all times (Gen 6:5).
Question - Did this change after the flood?
Answer - No (Gen 8:21)
Question - Can we come to God of our own accord?
Answer - No, we must be drawn by the Father (John 6:44)

The Calvanist position certainly appears to be supported by Scripture.

 

[manualman]

Shakespeare explains the catholic position best.

Original Sin gave all of us heros our fatal flaws. And they ARE fatal flaws even though a substantial amount of our goodness remains. Only Grace is enough to overcome our weakness.

Total Depravity is an utter fail on so many levels. How do Calvinists explain it when a pagan mother cares for her infant child, at 2am… when he’s screaming… day, after day, after day…

 

[Salvatore123]

Cachonga,

Your seemed to have boiled down your “theology” (which you refer to as “Calvanist” (sp) - [Calvinism], by citing two passages from Genesis and one from the NT:

*Question - Why did God destroy the Earth in a great flood?
Answer - Because men were wicked, and all the thought of their heart was bent upon evil at all times (Gen 6:5).
Question - Did this change after the flood?
Answer - No (Gen 8:21)
Question - Can we come to God of our own accord?
Answer - No, we must be drawn by the Father (John 6:44)

The Calvanist position certainly appears to be supported by Scripture.*

A few questions . . .

1. How did Noah and his family manage to escape the “total depravity of all men”?
2. “Because men were wicked, and all the thought of their heart was bent upon evil at all times.”

I do not doubt that men have a tendency towards sin (which we define as turning away from God in our hearts and actions). But you go on to describe all mankind as “totally depraved” and “bent upon evil at all times”. I thought God created man in his own image.

1. Do you really subscribe to the Calvinist view of “unconditional election”, where God’s choice from eternity of those whom he will bring to himself is not based on foreseen virtue, merit, or faith in those people. Rather, it is unconditionally grounded in God’s mercy alone. Conversely, God has also chosen from eternity to withhold himself from the unelect, and condemn them to face his wrath."???

How evil can a being be to create man, knowing ahead of time that he is going to destroy some of them and that those whom he destroys have absolutely no way of helping themselves by living according to God’s will. What a waste - and even simpler, what’s the point?

The OP wanted scripture to dispute the Calvinist view. I am happy to show there are many.

Psalms 17:21-25: “And the Lord will reward me according to my justice; and will repay me according to the cleanness of my hands: Because I have kept the ways of the Lord; and have not done wickedly against my God. For all his judgments are in my sight: and his justices I have not put away from me. And I shall be spotless with him: and shall keep myself from my iniquity. And the Lord will reward me according to my justice; and according to the cleanness of my hands before his eyes.”

Acts 10:34-35: “And Peter opening his mouth, said: In very deed I perceive, that God is not a respecter of persons. But in every nation, he that feareth him, and worketh justice, is acceptable to him.”

1 Corinth. 15:58: “Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye steadfast and unmoveable; always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.”

Heb. 6:10: “For God is not unjust, that he should forget your work, and the love which you have shewn in his name, you who have ministered, and do minister to the saints.”

2 Tim. 7-8: “I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith. As to the rest, there is laid up for me a crown of justice, which the Lord the just judge will render to me in that day: and not only to me, but to them also that love his coming.”

Matt. 16:24-27: “Then Jesus said to his disciples: If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.*For he that will save his life, shall lose it: and he that shall lose his life for my sake, shall find it. For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul? For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels: and then will he render to every man according to his works.”

Matt. 7:21: “Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.”

Matt. 5-3-12: “*Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. *Blessed are the meek: for they shall possess the land. *Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted. *Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after justice: for they shall have their fill. *Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. *Blessed are the clean of heart: for they shall see God. Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called children of God. *Blessed are they that suffer persecution for justice’ sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. *Blessed are ye when they shall revile you, and persecute you, and speak all that is evil against you, untruly, for my sake: *Be glad and rejoice, for your reward is very great in heaven. For so they persecuted the prophets that were before you.”

No one is saying that following the path of God is easy. On the contrary - Christ describes it as “taking up your own cross”.

But for God to have “predestined” a certain group of people who he will allow into heaven, without taking into account everything I just quoted from the bible - which is just a portion of what God and Christ want of man while man is on earth - makes God evil, vengeful, a sadist.

And that does not describe my God . . .

 

[PJM]

=wolfpup;7769510]Ok, if I can just explain my understanding of Catholic teaching. If it’s wrong, please correct me.

Every one of us is created in the “image and likeness of God”, and yet because of original sin this image has been corrupted. Jesus is the perfect image of God and by the merits and grace of his life, death, and resurrection this image that we each hold can be purified and made holy. As I understand it, this is the process of sanctification.
Calvinism states that we are born in Total Depravity, totally unable to seek God or please him in any way with the grace of his son. So there is no “image” before being born into Christ. The original image has been lost at the fall.

If I have got the Catholic view wrong then this is probably where my confusion rests, because it seems that Catholicism teaches that there is some part of us, though corrupted and covered that is inherently good.

If someone could explain the difference between the two views, then that would be very helpful, especially with scripture verses to show that we are not born Totally Depraved.

MY DEAR FRIEND IN CHRIST,

GOD DON’T MAKE JUNK!

If we are able to understand that “God is ALL good things Perfected” than a position such as Calvin Ect. have simply is without any foundation. God can ONLY do Good; BUT can permit evil [even though God cannot do evil].

So as you say: we are made [CREATED] in the image and likeness of God… God is Good so humanity MUST at least have the potential to be good. [Actually we all have the potentail to be SAINTS].

By virtye of the Spiritual Gifts that make humanity different from and BETTER than all other living things; as we alone have what is necessary to LOVE.

Our Minds, Intellects, FREEWILLS are connected to our souls; making us both unique and Supreme among all living things. These gifts can be demonistrated; BUT NOT qunatified, because like God who is “SPIRIT AND TRUTH” these gifts from God are Spiritual and can ONLY come from God who too is “Spirit.” [Like from Like].

Because of the complexity; and the enormous power of these gifts; one can righty assume that God gives them to us for a precise purpose.

Because humanity ALONE can know, Serve, Obey and LOVE God; [Isiah 43: 7, 21] we can know that these then are the reasons for our being. God desires [without demanding] that we Love him in return for Who, and What He is.

The fact that God allows each man. women and child to FREELY decide to Love God or to deny God is evidence of God’s faith and love for us. God OBLIGATES himself to provide at least the minimum amount of grace to every human person, to know Him. Some accept this grace; MANY MORE do not

Calvins view I’m guessing is based on: 1st. John 1: 8-10 and 1 John 5: 16-17

** 1John.1 Verses 8 to 10:** "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

** 1John.5 Verses 16 to 17**"If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. ** There is sin which is mortal**; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, ** but there is sin which is not mortal. **

My understanding is by “depraved” they mean “imperfect” … and indeed we are. I don’t recall there position on GRACE; Forgivreness of Sins; and the after life; but no doubt others on the FORUM will.

I hope this adds to your understanding?

God bless,
Pat

 

[bogeydogg]

Ok, if I can just explain my understanding of Catholic teaching. If it’s wrong, please correct me.

Every one of us is created in the “image and likeness of God”, and yet because of original sin this image has been corrupted. Jesus is the perfect image of God and by the merits and grace of his life, death, and resurrection this image that we each hold can be purified and made holy. As I understand it, this is the process of sanctification.
Calvinism states that we are born in Total Depravity, totally unable to seek God or please him in any way with the grace of his son. So there is no “image” before being born into Christ. The original image has been lost at the fall.

If I have got the Catholic view wrong then this is probably where my confusion rests, because it seems that Catholicism teaches that there is some part of us, though corrupted and covered that is inherently good.

If someone could explain the difference between the two views, then that would be very helpful, especially with scripture verses to show that we are not born Totally Depraved.

Calvin did teach the imago dei is destroyed by original sin/ total depravity.

He was wrong.

He also taught that since Christ only saved those He determined to save therefore the “world” which God loves is not actually the “world” but the elect.

On and on it goes.

Stick to Augustine. Augustine did teach something like total depravity, but he framed it as saying that our affections are bent away from God. That is we do not please God apart from grace because we have no savour for the things of God. In other words we do not please God apart from grace because we do not love God apart from grace. So it is we who rebel by choice and not God who condemns us to being unable to please Him because of Adam.

I think Augustine’s argument fits a lot better with what Paul teaches in Romans 1 and his focus on affections seems a lot more in with how people actually behave.

But Calvin was also busy throwing overboard icons, the Eucharist, the authority of the Church to forgive sin, etc etc. I think Calvin was not a man without some good things to say, but any good thing he did say was said better by others elsewhere who did not keep with the rest of his teachings that are so apparently wrong.

God Bless

 

[brb3]

Calvinism states that we are born in Total Depravity, totally unable to seek God or please him in any way with the grace of his son. So there is no “image” before being born into Christ. The original image has been lost at the fall.

… explain the difference between the two views, then that would be very helpful, especially with scripture verses to show that we are not born Totally Depraved.

Would God of left man on earth for many generations AFTER Adam … in a ‘totally’ depraved state ? :nope:

Enoch walked with God, and did not see death. Noah and family did just fine. Abraham did superbly well. … Etc, Etc.

Christ took on ‘human’ flesh … became our brother/kinship. The Early Church taught that God became man … so that man could become ‘like’ God. Christ the Good Shepherd, ever seeking to find those who will believe and confess him as Lord. How could the Holy Spirit make his home in us … if we were or remained ‘totally depraved’ prior to our full transformations in the next life ?

We are all called to ‘cooperate’ with God’s grace offered to us. A ‘totally depraved’ person could not do so. Young children have a pure, trusting spirit … until they learn sin and error from this world. They are in no way ‘totally depraved’. Christ told us to become again as ‘trusting’ children … “for such is the Kingdom of Heaven”.

 

[brb3]

Catholics “break down” what I call ultimate salvation (that is, reaching heaven) into two “steps”: Redemption and Salvation

Redemption could NOT be performed by man. Redemption (which means, quite literally, a “buying back”) of man was performed by Christ through his Passion. Remember that the smallest sin against an Infinite being such as God, produced an infinite harm. Thus, a finite being such as man could not “cure” that infinite harm. As a result, Christ suffered the Passion to redeem mankind.

But that does not end the process for us Catholics. We believe that although we have been redeemed by Jesus’s Passion, whether we wanted it or not (it applies to all), WE must still “work out our salvation with fear and trembling”. In other words, we humans must cooperate with God in working out our salvation. And working out our salvation IS something man can do, through faith and good works as demonstrating such faith.

Most excellently explained. This belongs in the Catechism.

 

[brb3]

Question - Why did God destroy the Earth in a great flood?
Answer - Because men were wicked, and all the thought of their heart was bent upon evil at all times (Gen 6:5).

Question - Can we come to God of our own accord?
Answer - No, we must be drawn by the Father (John 6:44)

The Calvanist position certainly appears to be supported by Scripture.

Not all men :nope:

God wrote his law within the hearts of all men. No one has an excuse to claim they were neglected … or that God determined not to DRAW them to himself. Recall John 3:16 for proof thereof. ‘Whosoever’ … means ALL can believe, if they will cooperate with God’s grace to them.

 

[bogeydogg]

Question - Why did God destroy the Earth in a great flood?
Answer - Because men were wicked, and all the thought of their heart was bent upon evil at all times (Gen 6:5).
Question - Did this change after the flood?
Answer - No (Gen 8:21)
Question - Can we come to God of our own accord?
Answer - No, we must be drawn by the Father (John 6:44)

The Calvanist position certainly appears to be supported by Scripture.

I think it is important to remember that the phrase “total depravity” does not mean that man is as bad as he can possibly be, even Hitler had a dog, but rather that our sin affects us in the totality of our humanity.

The problem with identifying this corruption of sin in all men with the sin of Adam is Romans 1. I know a lot of Calvinists (speaking as one who used to call himself such) like to point to Romans 8, Ephesians 2, etc to proof text this point, but I think the corruption of sin is more nuanced than the Calvinists make it out to be.

Here is what I mean Romans 1:

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith,as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”
God’s Wrath on Unrighteousness
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. 24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen

So the Gospel is the power of God by which men are saved by faith to live in righteousness, that righteousness being given them by grace in faith that faith being proven by the righteousness in which we live.

So why do men need the Gospel and that righteousness of faith by which they are saved?

Because everything which can be known of God is manifest in Creation plainly seen by the things that are made. But men, because they are not righteous, suppress that truth by the very unrighteousness which is within them.

So what is that unrighteousness?

That they knew God but did not honor Him as God and instead worshipped themselves and the things made rather than the Creator.

Now that is what the verse says and i do not believe we have a right to argue with it. So what implications does it hold for the Calvinist position which says that man cannot please God because of the Fall? Well clearly if man knows God and does not worship Him then the sin of which all men are guilty is that they did not (not that they could not) please God when they knew Him to be God. So the argument for Calvinism falls totally on its head in the first chapter of the book most Clavinists use to prop up their theology.

So is there a solution?

Augustine taught that man was bent away from God by his natural inclination. This does not mean that man could not know God but that man had no love for God. Having no love for God man has no desire to please/ worship God and so instead of loving God for the beauty and glory of creation man instead love’s creation for its own sake. And the perversion of this love is that it only twists love to selfish ends. You see if i love something for what it is then my love only extends to how useful a thing is so everything I love I must selfishly consume. But if I love things for God’s sake then I can lose all things for Christ and having gained Christ I have lost nothing.

You see Augustine interprets Paul by teaching on our affections which are twisted and self consumed. But this self consumed self will self directed desire is not incapable of loving God but chooses not to and therefore all men are guilty before God for actual sin they have committed instead of some sin with which they are born and then fall into anyway.

I hope you can see the difference because i truly think this is what Paul taught.

God Bless

 

[brb3]

Because everything which can be known of God is manifest in Creation plainly seen by the things that are made. But men, because they are not righteous, suppress that truth by the very unrighteousness which is within them.

So what is that unrighteousness?

That they knew God but did not honor Him as God and instead worshipped themselves and the things made rather than the Creator.

Now that is what the verse says and i do not believe we have a right to argue with it. So what implications does it hold for the Calvinist position which says that man cannot please God because of the Fall? Well clearly if man knows God and does not worship Him then the sin of which all men are guilty is that they did not (not that they could not) please God when they knew Him to be God. So the argument for Calvinism falls totally on its head in the first chapter of the book most Clavinists use to prop up their theology.

So is there a solution?

Augustine taught that man was bent away from God by his natural inclination. This does not mean that man could not know God but that man had no love for God. Having no love for God man has no desire to please/ worship God and so instead of loving God for the beauty and glory of creation man instead love’s creation for its own sake. And the perversion of this love is that it only twists love to selfish ends. You see if i love something for what it is then my love only extends to how useful a thing is so everything I love I must selfishly consume. But if I love things for God’s sake then I can lose all things for Christ and having gained Christ I have lost nothing.

You see Augustine interprets Paul by teaching on our affections which are twisted and self consumed. But this self consumed self will self directed desire is not incapable of loving God but chooses not to and therefore all men are guilty before God for actual sin they have committed instead of some sin with which they are born and then fall into anyway.

I hope you can see the difference because i truly think this is what Paul taught.

Put this in the archive, for all times … and pull it out anytime a Calvinist thread comes up ! Augustine, being a man of the flesh in his youth, was able to grasp the meanings of scripture on sin/depravity/redemption/grace. No mere theory for him … he wrote from life experience.

Bogeydogg has made the case very succintly … :tiphat:

 

[wolfpup]

Thanks for all your replies. There is a lot to think about and read here and tbh some of it goes way over my head. Thanks for the great discussion and I will try to get back to some points as soon as possible.