total depravity

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I’ve heard this term a lot. I think I know what evangelicals believe about this (we are wretched sinners, etc.) but what is the catholic viewpoint on it?
 
I’m no expert, but I would say that we Catholics would disagree with the idea of total depravity. We would see man as having a nature wounded by original sin and in need of redemption, born in a state of separation from God and unable to save ourselves. But even those who do not know Jesus, can possess natural virtues like generosity, kindness, altruism, truthfulness, etc. which reflect the creator. I think those who believe in total depravity would say that unless one explicitly accepts Christ, one is damned. We hold out the hope that by God’s mercy, those who have never had the opportunity to know Him, may still be be saved through Him. I’d like to hear the opinion of others who know more about this.
 
I thought the idea of total depravity popped up from Luther or Calvin. I’m pretty sure Catholics do disagree with it, though.
 
although no graces are given to those outside of Christ when they do these thing, it is still a fact that they do these things and therefore are not totally depraved, but are outside of the pale of salvation until coming to believe and being obedient to Christ.
The church emphasizes the fact that when God created man it was “very good” yet we know the fall brought man into sin and therefore made him less human than originally created.

Man is not empty of the human nature though, and the goal for man is to once again become fully human, perfect and full of grace. Jesus was full of grace and so was mary.
 
ClaireS said:
I’m no expert, but I would say that we Catholics would disagree with the idea of total depravity. We would see man as having a nature wounded by original sin and in need of redemption, born in a state of separation from God and unable to save ourselves. But even those who do not know Jesus, can possess natural virtues like generosity, kindness, altruism, truthfulness, etc. which reflect the creator. I think those who believe in total depravity would say that unless one explicitly accepts Christ, one is damned. We hold out the hope that by God’s mercy, those who have never had the opportunity to know Him, may still be be saved through Him. I’d like to hear the opinion of others who know more about this.
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Thanks for answering! When you say even those who do accept Christ have hope of salvation, how do we, as Catholics, justify that with when Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, the light. No one can go to the Father except through me”. He seems pretty clear for me.

And, although those who aren’t Christian possess natural virtues, all humans posess a sinful nature. I think that is what evangelicals mean by total depravity (althought I’m not sure). We are all sinful beings.

All this has me very confused.
 
boppaid said:
Thanks for answering! When you say even those who do accept Christ have hope of salvation, how do we, as Catholics, justify that with when Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, the light. No one can go to the Father except through me”. He seems pretty clear for me.

And, although those who aren’t Christian possess natural virtues, all humans posess a sinful nature. I think that is what evangelicals mean by total depravity (althought I’m not sure). We are all sinful beings.

All this has me very confused.
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you can check out wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_depravity
I think that people who haven’t heard of Jesus or are decieved by some religions might still be saved, but again through Jesus’ sacrifice
God is the savior of all people, especially of those who believe. (1Tim. 4:9-11)
His will and good pleasure and purpose are to unite all creation in Christ. (Eph. 1:10, 2:9-10)
At least i think so :o
 
The Roman Catholic Council of Orange
(a local Council, not considered a General Western council nor Ecumenical)
CONCLUSION
…And thus according to the passages of holy scripture quoted above or the interpretations of the ancient Fathers we must, under the blessing of God, preach and believe as follows…
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The sin of the first man has so impaired and weakened free will that no one thereafter can either love God as he ought or believe in God or do good for God’s sake, unless the grace of divine mercy has preceded him. We therefore believe that the glorious faith which was given to Abel the righteous, and Noah, and Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and to all the saints of old, and which the Apostle Paul commends in extolling them (Heb. 11), was not given through natural goodness as it was before to Adam, but was bestowed by the grace of God. And we know and also believe that even after the coming of our Lord this grace is not to be found in the free will of all who desire to be baptized, but is bestowed by the kindness of Christ, as has already been frequently stated and as the Apostle Paul declares, “For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake” (Phil. 1:29).
  • And again, “He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ” (Phil. 1:6).
  • And again, “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and it is not your own doing, it is the gift of God” (Eph. 2:8).
  • And as the Apostle says of himself, “I have obtained mercy to be faithful” (1 Cor. 7:25, cf. 1 Tim. 1:13). He did not say, “because I was faithful,” but “to be faithful.”
  • And again, “What have you that you did not receive?” (1 Cor. 4:7).
  • And again, “Every good endowment and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights” (Jas. 1:17).
  • And again, “No one can receive anything except what is given him from heaven” (John 3:27).
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{continued below}
 
{continued from above}
There are innumerable passages of holy scripture which can be quoted to prove the case for grace, but they have been omitted for the sake of brevity, because further examples will not really be of use where few are deemed sufficient.

According to the Catholic faith we also believe that after grace has been received through baptism, all baptized persons have the ability and responsibility, if they desire to labor faithfully, to perform with the aid and cooperation of Christ what is of essential importance in regard to the salvation of their soul. We not only do not believe that any are foreordained to evil by the power of God, but even state with utter abhorrence that if there are those who want to believe so evil a thing, they are anathema.] We also believe and confess to our benefit that in every good work it is not we who take the initiative and are then assisted through the mercy of God, but God himself first inspires in us both faith in him and love for him without any previous good works of our own that deserve reward, so that we may both faithfully seek the sacrament of baptism, and after baptism be able by his help to do what is pleasing to him.

We must therefore most evidently believe that the praiseworthy faith of the thief whom the Lord called to his home in paradise, and of Cornelius the centurion, to whom the angel of the Lord was sent, and of Zacchaeus, who was worthy to receive the Lord himself, was not a natural endowment but a gift of God’s kindness.
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This Council was highly influential on Roman Catholic thought, establishing a precedent of giving priority to Augustines basic arguments. It specifically did not, however, reaffirm Augustine’s ideas about double-predestination. In fact it condemned them [see black brackets above].

To be sure there was a reaction to this line of thinking in the Roman Catholic church community especially regarding the stillborn and the untimely death of newly born, evidenced by the widespread theory of Limbo for infants which became popular later. Although never actually adopted formally by the Roman Catholic church Limbo for infants is actually a type of mercy wish when contrasted with damnation of innocent children following Augustine’s thought and the Council of Orange.

Michael
 
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