total inerrancy is Catholic dogma

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Hard Sayings of the Bible, Kaiser, Jr, W. C., Davids, P. H., Bruce, F. F., Brauch, M. T., Intervarsity Press, U.S.A., ISBN-10: 0-8308-1423-X ISBN-13: 978-0-8308-1423-7
There are what seem like contradictions in the Bible; this book may help clarify a few pp.784

Although a Catholic is bound by interpretation of the Magesterium on text of Scripture it does not, and should not, discourage from personal responsibility of study.
 
First of all, what I would like to state is, I cannot believe there are some Catholics on these forums that believe scripture contains errors. This is a modern heresy that is creeping into the minds of Catholics who are listening to such moderninst theologians. These moderninst theologians are teaching to students in classrooms. Believe me…I know. I had a liberal professor who thought she knew more than the current Pope.

Now, what I do know is that Holy Sctipture is inerrant in that it contains no errors in what the inspired author intended to teach. If the author intended to teach something on history, science, faith, morals, parables, etc., than it is inerrant for the inspired author intended to teach that subject. One can just look at the Book of Tobit to see this example. It may contain history that may not match up correctly, but did the author intend to teach history…no! Many theologians actually say that Tobit was more like a parable. So, with that said it is inerrant, for the Holy Spirit, who cannot lie, guided him to writing an inerrant parable. Meaning the parable is true to be a lesson learned.

I will also say that, I am going to listen to a magisterial document over any modernist. True, these documents do not have the charimsa of Papal Infalliblity…, but they do not contain errors, for this has always been taught.

It stands to reason that once the atheists succeeded in getting believers to believe that Genesis 1 is mythology that it was only a matter of time till they set about undermining the rest of Scripture.
Reminds me of the Lord’s poignant words “When the Son of Man returns, will he find faith?”:knight2::bible1:
 
Pope Pius XII: “When, subsequently, some Catholic writers, in spite of this solemn definition of Catholic doctrine, by which such divine authority is claimed for the ‘entire books with all their parts’ as to secure freedom from any error whatsoever, ventured to restrict the truth of Sacred Scripture solely to matters of faith and morals, and to regard other matters, whether in the domain of physical science or history, as ‘obiter dicta’ [said in passing] and - as they contended - in no wise connected with faith, Our Predecessor of immortal memory, Leo XIII in the Encyclical Letter Providentissimus Deus, published on November 18 in the year 1893, justly and rightly condemned these errors and safe-guarded the studies of the Divine Books by most wise precepts and rules.”

Solemn definitions of Catholic doctrine are infallible.
Even the assertions of Scripture on science or history are inerrant.
The contrary opinion has been condemned by the Magisterium.

Pope Benedict XV: “St. Jerome’s teaching on this point serves to confirm and illustrate what our predecessor of happy memory, Leo XIII, declared to be the ancient and traditional belief of the Church touching** the absolute immunity of Scripture from error**: So far is it from being the case that error can be compatible with inspiration, that, on the contrary, it not only of its very nature precludes the presence of error, but as necessarily excludes it and forbids it as God, the Supreme Truth, necessarily cannot be the Author of error.”

The inspired text is free from all errors whatsoever; inerrancy is absolute; all that is inspired is inerrant.

There may be translations error or editing errors, since the translator and the editor are not working under inspiration. Faithful and reasonable Catholics may legitimately disagree about the proper interpretation. But the idea that any errors on any subject are found in Scripture has been condemned by the Magisterium.

Pope Leo XIII: “But it is absolutely wrong and forbidden, either to narrow inspiration to certain parts only of Holy Scripture, or to admit that the sacred writer has erred… For all the books which the Church receives as sacred and canonical, are written wholly and entirely, with all their parts, at the dictation of the Holy Spirit; and so far is it from being possible that any error can co-exist with inspiration, that inspiration not only is essentially incompatible with error, but excludes and rejects it as absolutely and necessarily as it is impossible that God Himself, the supreme Truth, can utter that which is not true. This is the ancient and unchanging faith of the Church, solemnly defined in the Councils of Florence and of Trent, and finally confirmed and more expressly formulated by the Council of the Vatican.”

Any doctrine that is solemnly defined by a Council is an infallible dogma. And doctrine that is proclaimed to be the ancient and unchanging faith of the Church is an infallible dogma.
 
Check out the links on this page for your reference:

apocalipsis.org/difficulties.htm

Who killed Goliath, David or Elhanan?
1 Samuel 17:50 and 2 Samuel 21:19

David did (1 Samuel 17:50) - “Thus David prevailed over the Philistine with a sling and a stone, and he struck the Philistine and killed him; but there was no sword in David’s hand.”

Elhanan did (2 Sam. 21:19)- “And there was war with the Philistines again at Gob, and Elhanan the son of Jaare-oregim the Bethlehemite killed Goliath the Gittite, the shaft of whose spear was like a weaver’s beam.”

The answer lies in two areas. 1 Chronicles 20:5 says, “And there was war with the Philistines again, and Elhanan the son of Jair killed Lahmi the brother of Goliath the Gittite, the shaft of whose spear was like a weaver’s beam.” This is the correct answer; namely, that Elhanan killed Goliath’s brother.

Second, it appears there was a copyist error in 2 Samuel 21:19. According to Gleason Archer’s Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties on page 179, it says,
  1. The sign of the direct object, which in Chronicles comes just before “Lahmi,” was '-t; the copyist mistook it for b-t or b-y-t (“Beth”) and thus got Bet hal-Lahmi (“the Bethlehemite”) out of it.
  2. He misread the word for “brother” (’-h) as the sign of the direct object (’-t) right before g-l-y-t (“Goliath”). Thus he made “Goliath” the object of “killed” (wayyak), instead of the “brother” of Goliath (as the Chronicles passage does).
  3. The copyist misplaced the word for “weavers” (’-r-g-ym) so as to put it right after “Elhanan” as his patronymic (ben Y-’-r-y’-r–g-ym, or ben ya 'arey 'ore -gim – “the son of the forests of weavers” – a most unlikely name for anyone’s father!). In Chronicles the 'ore grim (“weavers”) comes right after menor ("a beam of ") – thus making perfectly good sense.
Therefore, we see that 2 Samuel 21:19 had a copyist error and 1 Chronicles 20:5 is the correct information.
RESPONSE:

From the New American Bible:

1 Sam 17: 23, 49-50
“There was another battle with the Philistines in Gob, in which Elhanan, son of Jair from Bethlehem, killed Goliath of Gath, who had a spear with a shaft like a weaver’s heddle-bar…. David put his hand into the bag and took out a stone, hurled it with the sling, and struck the Philistine on the forehead. The stone embedded itself in his brow, and he fell prostrate on the ground. (Thus David overcame the Philistine with sling and stone; he struck the Philistine mortally, and did it without a sword.)

2 Sam 21:19 “There was another battle with the Philistines in Gob, in which Elhanan, son of Jair from Bethlehem, killed Goliath of Gath, who had a spear with a shaft like a weaver’s heddle-bar. “ (NAB)

1 Chron 20:5 “Once again there was war with the Philistines, and Elhanan, the son of Jair, slew Lahmi, the brother of Goliath of Gath, whose spear shaft was like a weaver’s heddle-bar…” (NAB)

So someone discovered the 2 Sam’s error and changed it to “the brother of”. Where else in the Bible to we find subsequent writers correcting earlier errors?

But it’s all inerrant some try to tell us.
 
Pope Leo XIII: “But it is absolutely wrong and forbidden, either to narrow inspiration to certain parts only of Holy Scripture, or to admit that the sacred writer has erred… For all the books which the Church receives as sacred and canonical, are written wholly and entirely, with all their parts, at the dictation of the Holy Spirit; and so far is it from being possible that any error can co-exist with inspiration, that inspiration not only is essentially incompatible with error, but excludes and rejects it as absolutely and necessarily as it is impossible that God Himself, the supreme Truth, can utter that which is not true. This is the ancient and unchanging faith of the Church, solemnly defined in the Councils of Florence and of Trent, and finally confirmed and more expressly formulated by the Council of the Vatican.”
I agree with Ronald Witherup (writing under the imprimatur and Nihil Obstat in Biblical Fundamentalism, What Every Catholic Should Know) when he states:

Note that the language (of Pope Leo XIII) is not that different from a typical fundamentalist position. Despite the enlightened nature of this encyclical, some ideas expressed in it were still caught up in a pre-scientific viewpoint. In the nineteenth century the Church was not yet making the distinction in Scripture between lack of error in scientific and historical teaching and the lack of error in moral and religious truth.

Even into the early twentieth century the Catholic Church opposed some scientific studies that led to conclusions thought to be incompatible with Catholic teaching on the Bible.
We should note that despite some tendencies toward fundamentalism in its history, the Catholic Church has resisted using the terminology of “inerrancy” applied to the Bible. To the best of my knowledge, the word has never been used in official Church doctrine at the level of an ecumenical council. The word comes loaded with considerable baggage-a world view, we might say-that tilts toward an overly literal interpretation of the Bible. Vatican II uses the expression “without error” rather than the word “inerrancy” to avoid the innuendo of historical and scientific accuracy of the Bible (see *Dei Verbum, *the Constitution on Divine Revelation, 41’11; also quoted in the *Catechism of the Catholic Church, *§1O7). Although I will say more about this distinction below, we should note that the Catholic Church’s position on lack of error in the Bible embraces only doctrinal and moral teaching, not scientific or historical. Furthermore, it allows for growth in the moral perspective in the Bible, recognizing that moral insight deepened over time. Not every moral teaching in the Bible carries the same weight.

In 1943, on the fiftieth anniversary of Leo XIII’s encyclical, the Catholic Church’s perspective on biblical interpretation changed dramatically. Pope Pius XII issued a groundbreaking encyclical on biblical studies that gave Catholic biblical scholars the green light to employ all scientific means possible to explore the Bible in order to expound its meaning.

This position represented a shift from the encyclical of Leo XIII. Not only did it provide the necessary impetus for Catholic scholars to develop and exercise their skills to their best ability, but it also exhorted Catholic exegetes to do their work in freedom without fear of unjust harassment or ridicule. While simultaneously acknowledging how few times the Church has officially pronounced on the meaning of individual passages, one paragraph of Pius XII’s encyclical calls all Catholics to give honor and respect to the hard labor of biblical scholars whose task is to explore the vast fund of scriptural data for whatever profound meaning can be discerned.

I’m sure you won’t agree with him but then none of us are writing under the imprimatur or Nihil Obstat. Anyway, staying in the church would be an untenable situation if I did not agree with him.

It also seems that you stop quoting when you get to more recent documents. For example, you leave out:
  • *Divino Afflante Spiritu, *Encyclical Letter of Pope Pius XII, 1943: This is the most important official document that inaugurated modern Catholic critical exegesis of the Bible. It affirms that the Bible contains no errors in faith and morals, but it also respects the human dimension of the Word of God. Catholic scholars are urged to concentrate on the literal meaning of Scripture while being sensitive to the many other deeper senses that expound its spiritual meaning.
  • Instruction of the Pontifical Biblical Commission, "On the Historical Truth of the Gospels; 1964: This document is significant for its acknowledgment of the multilayered traditions that are found in the canonical Gospels. It explains the threefold process by which the Gospels came into being: oral, written, and edited (redacted) traditions. Each of these corresponds to specific time frames: the time of Jesus and the apostles, the time of the preaching and collecting of traditions of later disciples, and the time of the evangelists who finally collected and edited the traditions for their individual communities. **This process helps to explain why the literal meaning of the Gospels does not always represent “historical truth” as we might naively conceive of it. **Careful discernment of the layers of the tradition and their theological intent is required to answer historical questions.
  • Vatican Council **II, ***Dei Verbum, *Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation, 1965: This is the most fundamental document because it is a dogmatic constitution of the Church formulated by an ecumenical council. Its extensive teaching affirms basic Catholic doctrine on the Bible, e.g., inspiration, lack of error in matters of faith and morals, the human dimension of the Scriptures that nonetheless communicates the divine message as God intended, and the fact that Scripture is "the soul of theology:’
 
To those who have replied to this thread:

There seems to be some confusion on what constitutes an “ex cathedra” statement and its role in in errantly setting forth Catholic teaching.

As I recall my ecclesiology class, formally, “ex cathedra” (from the chair) only applies to statements issued by Pope Leo XIII and his successors. Formally speaking it does not apply to statements issued by Popes prior to Pope Leo or to Church councils.

As I recall, there have only been two formal “ex cathedra” statements in the entire history of the Church. The first was issued by Pope Leo XIII (later confirmed by Vatican I and Vatican II) himself in defining the dogma of papal infallibility. The second was issued by Pope Pius XII when he defined the dogma of the Assumption of Mary.

The various statements of Church councils on interpretation of Sacred Scripture are NOT “ex cathedra” statements. This does not mean that they are capable of error. They are in errant NOT because they are “ex cathedra” statements, but because they represent the consistent, constant and unfailing teaching of the Church’s Magisterial authority. This is, in reality, a minor point because both, ultimately, arrive at the same point - an in errant teaching that Catholics must believe as a matter of faith as Vatican I’s statement of infallibility makes clear.

As far as the issue of translations in so far as it applies to interpretation of Scripture, Mr. Conte is correct. It is the original author in the original language that enjoys inerrancy. This point, and the question of possible error in the translation of Scripture is made by St. Augustine in a letter to St. Jerome which was quoted by Pope Leo XIII in his encyclical “Providentissimus Deus (II, D, 3, b):

On my own part I confess to your charity that it is only to those books of Scripture, which are now called canonical, that I have learned to pay such honor and reverence as to believe most firmly that none of their writers has fallen into any error. And if in these books I meet anything, which seems contrary to truth, I shall not hesitate to conclude either that the text is faulty, or that the translator has not expressed the meaning of passage, or that I myself do not understand.

This is where the professional biblical exegete comes in. His job is to #1 interpret scripture in union with the mind and tradition of the Church. #2 locate and interpret as far as possible, the original text of the original author.

As Mr. Conte correctly suggests, it is at this point that there can be legitimate discussion as to the meaning of Sacred Scripture PROVIDED we keep in mind the facts that #1. Only the Church’s Magisterium has the final authority to interpret Scripture. The work of the exegete and of the individual believer must ALWAYS be subjected to and in union with that final, inerrant authority. #2. One must be careful not to take Church teaching out of its historical context or try to make it say more or less than it does. #3. The Magisterium MUST ALWAYS be interpreted in light of the whole deposit of faith, the entirety of Church teaching and not any one document in isolation.

Corry
RESPONSE:

Sorry. You’re way off base. Once decided “infallibly” that ex cathedra statements were infallible, all such statements meeting the criteria were deemed to be infallible whenever the teaching was given.

Until about 1960 (Vatican II era) there were 16 such statments considered infallible. Fourteen have been more or less dropped or are at least being ignored by the official Church.

Statements on the Church’s correct interpretation of scripture were infallible by way of ecumenical councils, not ex cathedra teachings. (See the decrees of Trent and Vatican I)
 
Pope Pius IX’s Quanta Cura (1864):

"And from this wholly false idea of social organisation they do not fear to foster that erroneous opinion, especially fatal to the Catholic Church and the salvation of souls, called by our predecessor, Gregory XVI, insanity, namely that the **liberty of conscience and worship ** is the proper right of every man, and should be proclaimed by law in every correctly established society… Each and every doctrine individually mentioned in this letter, by Our Apostolic authority We reject, proscribe and condemn; and We wish and command that they be considered as absolutely rejected by all the sons of the Church."

This ex cathedra teaching , although supposedly irreformable (unchangeable), was reversed by Vatican II:

“The Council further declares that the right to religious freedom has its foundation in the very dignity of the human person… This right to religious freedom is to be recognised in the constitutional law whereby society is governed. Thus it is to become a civil right.” (Declaration on Religious Liberty, Dignitatis Humanae)

So Catholics got the “madness” of liberty of conscience back!😃
 
Pope Pius IX’s Quanta Cura (1864):

This ex cathedra teaching , although supposedly irreformable (unchangeable), was reversed by Vatican II:
JP- what gives you the notion that this was ex cathedra? Being included in a papal encyclical does not make something an ex cathedra proclamation. :confused:
 
JP- what gives you the notion that this was ex cathedra? Being included in a papal encyclical does not make something an ex cathedra proclamation. :confused:
RESPONSE:

But meeting the three criteria established by Vatican I for an infallible ex cathedra does make it infallible.

From the Catholic Encyclopedia:

"The binding power of the Syllabus of Pius IX is differently explained by Catholic theologians. All are of the opinion that many of the propositions are condemned if not in the Syllabus, then certainly in other final decisions of the infallible teaching authority of the Church, for instance in the Encyclical “Quanta Cura”. "

Infallible teachings are irreformable (unchangeable) until it becomes convenient to change it. In this case it is argued that it was never infallible in the first place.
 
Ignoring JP Marat’s posts…

There are a number of problems with the position, expressed by a number of posters, that total inspiration does not imply total inerrancy.
  1. The teaching in the absolute immunity from error of Scripture has been taught very definitively by several Popes and Councils. Most teachings of the Church have been taught less definitively. If we can reject this teaching on inerrancy, on whatever grounds, then this implies that we can reject any less definitive teaching, which is most of the Faith.
  2. If total inspiration does not imply total inerrancy, then God inspired error and falsehoods. The entire body of teachings of the Catholic Faith is then implicitly called into question. If Scripture contains errors, then does the teaching of the Magisterium contain errors? If Scripture contains errors, then does the teaching of Sacred Tradition contain errors? Again, the teachings of the Faith would seem to lose their surety.
  3. If we are to listen to scholar above the definitive teachings of Popes and Councils, then the Church no longer exists as a divine institution, and the Pope and Bishops, and their teaching is then replaced by scholars and their scholarship. Again, the Catholic Faith does not stand with this type of approach.
But as for me, the definitive teaching of even one Pope or one Council is sufficient for me to hold as an article of faith that Scripture is totally inspired and totally inerrant.
 
Mr. Conte,

You don’t tell the truth.

You do not represent the Church.

Care to respond to ANY of my posts?

Checked with your bishop or diocese lately?

No offense intended – but I AM offended by your illegitimate claims!

David A. Zampino
 
RESPONSE:

From the New American Bible

2 Sam 21:19 “There was another battle with the Philistines in Gob, in which Elhanan, son of Jair from Bethlehem, killed Goliath of Gath, who had a spear with a shaft like a weaver’s heddle-bar. “ (NAB)

My Bible dictionary says: The Goliath of 2Samuel21:19 was probably the son of the giant whom David killed. He was slain by Elhanan, one of David’s men

.
Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ
 
There were at least two people in the bible named Elhanan: Elhanan ben Dodo (one of David’s ‘commandos’) and Elhanan ben Jair (who killed Goliath).

Elhanan ben Jair is traditionally believed among Jewish interpretation to be a name of King David. According to the Jewish sage Rashi (c AD 1200) 2 Samuel 21:19 calls David Elhanan (one of David’s names) and that this suggested by the part that says “the son of Jaare-oregim” in which Rashi states:
Heb. אורגים, lit. weavers. For his family wove curtains for the Holy Temple which was called Jaar (see I Kings 10:17, and 10:21).
Also he (or his father?) is called a Bethlehemite, in fact both David and his father Jesse were born in Bethlehem.

This is not unique in Jewish tradition for to be called 2 different names in one book, take for example Melchizedek, in Jewish (and Syrian Catholic) tradition he is Shem ben Noah.

People who oppose scriptural errancy tend to assume it has errors or want it to have errors. The Church Fathers and Vatican I and II both say the bible is “dictated by the Holy Spirit”:
“In composing the sacred books, God chose men and while employed by Him they made use of their powers and abilities, so that with Him acting in them and through them, they, as true authors, consigned to writing everything and only those things which He wanted. Therefore, since everything asserted by the inspired authors or sacred writers must be held to be asserted by the Holy Spirit, it follows that the books of Scripture must be acknowledged as teaching solidly, faithfully and without error that truth which God wanted put into sacred writings for the sake of salvation.”—Vatican II, Dei Verbum Chapter III
 
RESPONSE:

Sorry, Spiritus paracletus was the personal opinion of the pope and not an ex cathedra teaching.

Besides, scripture contains many errors and contradictions. I’ve been quoting some of these out on my thread asking if the church still considers scripture to be inspired.
Scripture does not contain any errors or contradictions when properly understood in CONTEXT.

You can’t just make blanket accusations…give us some specifics.
CC
 
The Bible is infallible. Unfortunately it is being read by fallible creatures:

There’s a story of Charles Spurgeon, a famous evangelist, saying you can doubt everything between the front and the back cover if you’ve a mind to.

And Thomas Jefferson who took out all the miraculous work of God from his Bible and was left with a very slim volume.

*‘The Holy Ghost rides in the chariot of Scripture, and not in the wagon of modern thought’
(Charles Spurgeon)
*
 
RESPONSE:

One should not “accept this dogma of total inerrancy” if the bible can be shown to contain errors. I’ve point one out above. There are many more. Perhaps another example would prove helpful.

Dear JP Marat:

Sorry, not sure if you are a male or a female. However, that is not really important. The question is how do you define “total inerrancy.” As been pointed out by myself and several other posts, the claim by Mr. Conte that inerrancy is absolute and includes EVERYTHING in the Bible is incorrect. That is NOT what has been asserted by Pope Leo or other subsequent documents. What is inerrant is what is asserted by the Holy Spirit. The Church through the Catechism, Dei Verbum and other recent statements states that what is asserted by the Holy Spirit can be found in the literal sense of scripture. This sense elucidates the central point of the story. It does not matter Who killed Saul. That is not the point of the story. The point is to highlight God’s aid to Israel, and how Saul lost his blessed and chosen position as God’s chosen king through his unrepentant sin. He abandoned God so God abandoned him and chose David in his stead. David also committed terrible sins but did not remain in sin. He is consistently portrayed as a man after God’s own heart - Why? Because he acknowledged his sinfulness and asked for forgiveness. He proved his repentance through his changed behavior. These are the essential details. Who killed whom, when, at what place are non-essential details. They do not change the central message of the story.

Your posts show why it is important to interpret Church teaching in light of the whole teaching not just one or two documents. In actuality, there are very few interpretations of Scripture that are viewed as infallible. One is Matthews use of Is 7 describing the virgin birth of Jesus. By Matthew using the Greek word parthenos for alma (the Hebrew in Is 7 which can mean just a young woman who could be a virgin or not a virgin, Matthew is proclaiming the virgin birth as a matter of faith.

As you say, there are many things relating to historical, geographical, scientific details that current scientific research has shown to be in error. Where do these errors come from? Most, certainly, in my opinion at least, can be dismissed as transmission errors. The inerrancy of Scripture rests in the original text in the original language written by the original author. This is the legitimate part that historical criticism of the biblical text plays. Through modern, scientific use of its techniques, scholars can make substantial progress in determining the original form of the text and issue corrections. This is not a simple process however and requires consensus among scholars - something that is not easily reached - just look at the controversy the Dead Sea Scrolls have engendered since their discovery sixty-two years ago.

Another form of “error” is not an error at all but shows the specific purpose of the author. An example of this is the different day of Jesus’ crucifixion. St. John locates it on Passover, while the synoptic Gospels place it on the day after Passover. When you realize that John specifically teaches that the crucifixion of Jesus is the fulfillment and perfection of the Jewish feast of Passover and the centrality of that position in the Church’s understanding of the Eucharist, the “error” falls away.

To apply inerrancy to the entire scriptures in the sense that every word is literally true, only holds Christians to ridicule. Just as those who reject evolution and teach a literal six day creation, six thousand year old earth are justifiably dismissed with derision.

Yet there are claims of modern “experts” that are incorrect and need to be rejected. For example, many secular scholars who still make the claim that there is not historically accurate details in Scripture and the New Testament claims about Jesus represent the 4th century church reading back it’s faith about Jesus to Jesus’ day and the days of the first century Church. In fact, the apostles and the early church fathers such as Ignatius of Antioch, Irenaeus of Lyons, Clement of Rome, Polycarp, Justin Martyr and others show that the Church’s claims about the authority of the apostles and their successors, the position of leadership of Peter, the sacraments, etc. DO date back to Jesus and the apostles. The revelation of who God is and of His intervention in man’s history in order to offer us salvation are true and reliable and infallible. Analysis of the senses of scripture through the methods of modern (post 1940’s) techniques of scriptural criticism and submitting one’s interpretation of Scripture to the mind and teaching of the Church Magisterium shows what is essential to the story. It is these essential elements that are asserted by the Holy Spirit and thus are infallible, not all the details of history, geography, etc that have no impact on the meat of the story (not that ALL the words used in scripture are not important but that there ARE things in scripture that if changed, or not exactly how/where things happened, would not change the central meaning of the story). While much of these supposed contradictory details can be easily explained through errors in transmission, translation, direct authorial intent, etc.; it is ultimately not important to the impact of Scripture on our lives and relationship to God whether they exist or not.

Corry
 
But as for me, the definitive teaching of even one Pope or one Council is sufficient for me to hold as an article of faith that Scripture is totally inspired and totally inerrant.

Dear Mr. Conte:

Even you admit that there are errors in the bible due to errors in transmission etc. All that I and others dispute is how you interprete the Magisterial documents. When you read and study (with the assistance of teachers trained to interpret them) commentaries on those documents including Dei Verbum, the PBC’ 1964 and 1993 documents and the Catechism of the Catholic Church (1994), you will see that your position is not a correct understanding. You are free to believe as you wish, however, one needs to keep in mind that not all on this site have the benefit of years of study of Catholic teaching. Some are converts and some are not Catholic and thus it is important to correctly explain Catholic teaching.

Corry
 
Pope Pius IX’s Quanta Cura (1864):

This ex cathedra teaching , although supposedly irreformable (unchangeable), was reversed by Vatican II:

It is NOT ex cathedra teaching. It is issued BEFORE ex cathedra statements were defined in the 1870’s and thus cannot be. Whether that means it is infallible or not is a totally different question.

I am not on expert on Quanta Cura and thus cannot comment on whether it is infallible or not. I do know that there have been cases where past theologians have, based on imperfect human knowledge, have drawn erroneous conclusions to questions not definitively answered (in their day) by the Magisterium. For example, based on an erroneous understanding of the phisiology of human conception and birth, St. Thomas Aquinas taught that it was permissible to abort a “fetus” prior to “quickening” - the term for when the fetus sufficiently develops (ca. 40 days after conception) for exterior observation to determine the baby is “alive” - you can see and feel movement of the baby within the womb. Given our modern understanding, St. Thomas would have to amend his position to that of the Church.

I do know that Vatican II’s understanding of the “right to error” is partially based on the personalist philosophical writings of Deitrich Von Hildebrand, Karol Wojctiva (later JP II) and other 20th century philosophers. It is possible that this understanding was not yet reached (much like the role of the unitive nature of procreation is a development of JPII and others which fills out Catholic teaching on marriage, sex, and procreation) in Pope Pius’ day.

In any event, I do not see whether a person has an inherent right to “error” or not as something necessary to the faith. What matters is that the Church teaches that there is no salvation outside the Church. That has always been and still is Catholic teaching and IS infallible (my understanding of the Church’s position). Again, like the inerrancy of Scripture, one needs to correctly understand what that teaching means. It does NOT mean that non-Catholics are going to Hell as some have taught in the past. It has to do with the fact that there is no salvation without God’s grace and the Church is the means through which that grace is made available through its administration of the sacraments and its offering of the Mass (not that these are the sole means of transmission of God’s grace, just the ordinary ones).

Corry
 
Scripture does not contain any errors or contradictions when properly understood in CONTEXT.

You can’t just make blanket accusations…give us some specifics.
CC
RESPONSE:

Ah yes. The old “context” ploy. Like Mark, Luke, and John have Jesus sending for and riding only one animal when entering Jerusalem while Matthew has Jesus send for and ride two animals of different size so he can fulfill Zec 9:9.

But viewed “in context,” 2 is really 1.

Something like that?

JPM
 
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