Totalitarian Irrationality

[tonyrey]

I would argue that Reason – an abstract idea or generality which we are expected to value for its own sake – is an idol. A result of that general revival of Plato’s polytheistic theology which began in the 13th century. Reason has nothing to do with our ability to reason (as a verb).

To save others from this error we must first avoid it ourselves.

Society, Democracy, Equality, Tolerance, Diversity… idols.

Ever wonder how many chinese people Mao sacrificed for The Chinese People?

The term “Reason” is often used as shorthand for “the power of reason” - on which we rely to reach many of our conclusions - but it is certainly a mistake to regard it as the sole or even the most important form of knowledge. Beethoven wrote “From the heart, may it again go to the heart” and Pascal also believed “The heart has its reasons that reason does not know”.

It is obviously a mistake to reject the value of reason altogether like sceptics and nihilists. Fanaticism is the direct result of failing to consider whether the end justifies the means.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Stillness

**Why do I get out of bed? I don’t know. My human nature compels me to continue living. But I do not believe there is any purpose in my existence. No more reason to get out of bed than because it is what I want to do at the moment. **

Then I suppose there is no purpose for your visiting Catholic Answers? What gets you here if you are not motivated by a purpose? Are you here to make converts to nihilism? Why bother, since being a convert to nihilism is also purposeless?

 

[JamesATyler]

If martial law were declared, or if a gun was put to my head, I would be afraid. But it would be out of my own animal instinct to survive and avoid harm. There would be no greater purpose; there is no great reason for my existence. If I were threatened with death I would be afraid because my mind fears death, but I will die eventually anyway. It makes no difference in the scale of the universe whether I live or die, whether I continue to exist or never existed at all. I could not claim that it would be morally evil to kill me, though I may falsely make the claim in an attempt to spare my own life.

Why do I get out of bed? I don’t know. My human nature compels me to continue living. But I do not believe there is any purpose in my existence. No more reason to get out of bed than because it is what I want to do at the moment.

You’re problem is that you are completely self-centered. Even if you really believe that you will personally come to an end that is nonexistence, you are intelligent enough to know that your actions will echo in this world after you are gone. Even after you are gone, and no longer exist, this world will continue to exist and the living will continue. You say you find no purpose because you will not remember and for *you * it will be as if nothing had ever happened. Why don’t you at least try to make the world a better place for the people who will follow you. Can’t you use your brain and what love you have in yourself to add some meaning and purpose to your life?

 

[Stillness]

Stillness

**Why do I get out of bed? I don’t know. My human nature compels me to continue living. But I do not believe there is any purpose in my existence. No more reason to get out of bed than because it is what I want to do at the moment. **

Then I suppose there is no purpose for your visiting Catholic Answers? What gets you here if you are not motivated by a purpose? Are you here to make converts to nihilism? Why bother, since being a convert to nihilism is also purposeless?

I come here to try to learn things about your religion and the ways you think of the world, and to recieve challenges to my own ideas.

I do not try to convert anyone to nihilism. Nihilism is indeed pointless, just as I see everything else as pointless. To try to convert others to nihilism would imply that I think it inherently better than other viewpoints. The idea of “prosyletizing” for nihilism strikes me as utterly ridiculous.

 

[Stillness]

You’re problem is that you are completely self-centered. Even if you really believe that you will personally come to an end that is nonexistence, you are intelligent enough to know that your actions will echo in this world after you are gone. Even after you are gone, and no longer exist, this world will continue to exist and the living will continue. You say you find no purpose because you will not remember and for *you * it will be as if nothing had ever happened. Why don’t you at least try to make the world a better place for the people who will follow you. Can’t you use your brain and what love you have in yourself to add some meaning and purpose to your life?

The problem I see with this is that the world will not continue to exist indeffinitely. It will, at some point, be destroyed. And although I could try to make the world better for people around me, this would require a clearcut definition of what “better” would be. And at the same time, when I reach a state of nonexistance, I will forget these people and whatever I have done to them. It may make me feel better emotionally to make their lives easier, but those emotions will pass and be forgotten.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Stillness

The problem I see with this is that the world will not continue to exist indeffinitely. It will, at some point, be destroyed. And although I could try to make the world better for people around me, this would require a clearcut definition of what “better” would be.

I can’t believe you don’t have some clearcut notion of what better would be.

The nihilist position is for me the ultimate lazy man’s philosophy. It is just too easy. “Why bother to look for purpose, since I’m not likely to find one no matter where or how hard I look?”

** when I reach a state of nonexistance, I will forget these people and whatever I have done to them.**

You don’t know it for a fact that you will reach a state of non-existence. It’s just easier and lazier for you to assume it’s so.

**It may make me feel better emotionally to make their lives easier, but those emotions will pass and be forgotten. **

They will not be forgotten by God. Oh, but then it’s easier not to look for and find God. After all, if you found Him, you might have to work at relating to Him.

 

[Stillness]

Stillness

The problem I see with this is that the world will not continue to exist indeffinitely. It will, at some point, be destroyed. And although I could try to make the world better for people around me, this would require a clearcut definition of what “better” would be.

I can’t believe you don’t have some clearcut notion of what better would be.

The nihilist position is for me the ultimate lazy man’s philosophy. It is just too easy. “Why bother to look for purpose, since I’m not likely to find one no matter where or how hard I look?”

** when I reach a state of nonexistance, I will forget these people and whatever I have done to them.**

You don’t know it for a fact that you will reach a state of non-existence. It’s just easier and lazier for you to assume it’s so.

**It may make me feel better emotionally to make their lives easier, but those emotions will pass and be forgotten. **

They will not be forgotten by God. Oh, but then it’s easier not to look for and find God. After all, if you found Him, you might have to work at relating to Him.

I have looked for God. In looking I have never found him. Unless that happens, I can’t structure a philosophy around his existence.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Stillness

**I have looked for God. In looking I have never found him. Unless that happens, I can’t structure a philosophy around his existence. **

Look harder!

 

[JamesATyler]

The problem I see with this is that the world will not continue to exist indeffinitely. It will, at some point, be destroyed. And although I could try to make the world better for people around me, this would require a clearcut definition of what “better” would be. And at the same time, when I reach a state of nonexistance, I will forget these people and whatever I have done to them. It may make me feel better emotionally to make their lives easier, but those emotions will pass and be forgotten.

Stillness. Let me try to look at it from your perspective (if I understand it). You are material only. The physical universe is your creator or father (through its laws). I assume you view the universe (your creator) as not a living thing with a mind that can remember. You have a mind though. The universe (with its laws) has managed to produce you, a creature that does have a mind that can remember (temporarily). The universe itself, however, does not know you or even what it is doing. The universe has no knowledge of itself either and is not an intelligent thing, although it can produce intelligent things although it cannot make them eternal. There is no reason why the universe produces these things because the universe does not reason. It just is what it is. So what does this say about you.

If you are a product of the universe then you must share something of its nature. You can produce things. You can create something more complex than yourself. You are governed by the laws of nature. You eat, you sleep, you live, you die. You cannot make anything eternal. You cannot change what you are. You are material. You interact with material. Material is your medium for interacting with other material beings. Do you see any beauty in that?

Whatever you are, you are still a part of the universe. The universe (material) interacts with itself by producing intelligent creatures. These creatures are highly individualized. There is only one of you. You can feel pain and pleasure. As a material product of the universe, you have no guidance as to what is good. You have to decide what you think is good for other material beings. Do you like to be treated with kindness. Probably so. Kindness is Good. Treat others with kindness. Do you like to eat? Probably so! Eating is Good. Share your food. Do you like to be warm when it is cold outside. Give shelter to the needy. Do you like to be treated as valuable? Treat others as valuable.

Treat others as you would like to be treated. Let that be the basis for what is Good.

 

[tonyrey]

If you were really and truly a nihilist you wouldn’t bother to communicate with anyone, let alone explain your views to us! After all - according to your argument - nothing is worthwhile because everything will eventually disappear. I regret to say everything you think and write is valueless if you take nihilism to its logical conclusion.

But then you must also deny the value of logic… and be reduced to absolute silence - which would be rather frustrating. **

The very fact that you’re expressing yourself demonstrates that you believe in the value of self-expression! **

So there’s hope for you in the midst of your meaningless ocean of emptiness.

 

[Stillness]

As a material product of the universe, you have no guidance as to what is good. You have to decide what you think is good for other material beings. Do you like to be treated with kindness. Probably so. Kindness is Good. Treat others with kindness. Do you like to eat? Probably so! Eating is Good. Share your food. Do you like to be warm when it is cold outside. Give shelter to the needy. Do you like to be treated as valuable?

This is still a problem, though. What I want and how I want to be treated is irrelevant. Human desires and emotions don’t change certain philosophical realities. Do I want to survive and live comfortably? Yes, it is part of animal nature. But why is that morally good? It seems to be the nature of things rather than having any more purpose.

 

[Stillness]

If you were really and truly a nihilist you wouldn’t bother to communicate with anyone, let alone explain your views to us! After all - according to your argument - nothing is worthwhile because everything will eventually disappear. I regret to say everything you think and write is valueless if you take nihilism to its logical conclusion.

But then you must also deny the value of logic… and be reduced to absolute silence - which would be rather frustrating. **

The very fact that you’re expressing yourself demonstrates that you believe in the value of self-expression! **

So there’s hope for you in the midst of your meaningless ocean of emptiness.

I am not claiming that anything I do has a purpose. I just feel like doing it at the moment. Something not being worthwhile doesn’t necessarily mean it can’t be done. It just means that there is no reason to do it.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Stillness

Do I want to survive and live comfortably? Yes, it is part of animal nature. But why is that morally good?

It is good because the alternative in your universe is eternal nothingness.

“To be, or not to be. That is the question.” Hamlet, Act 3, Scene 1 by William Shakespeare

 

[Stillness]

Stillness

Do I want to survive and live comfortably? Yes, it is part of animal nature. But why is that morally good?

It is good because the alternative in your universe is eternal nothingness.

“To be, or not to be. That is the question.” Hamlet, Act 3, Scene 1 by William Shakespeare

I suppose. But that would still just be a desire of mine, the instinct to avoid death. And I will die anyway.

 

[Peter_Plato]

My point is that it seems we are no different than a housefly.

Therein lies the problem. You are basing conclusions on an uncertain premise.

Unfortunately, there is a great deal at stake if that premise turns out to be mistaken - a possibility that you even allow by using the word “seems”.

Suppose we are no different than houseflies but we have treated each other with great dignity and respect as if we deserved better. That would seem a good thing, would it not?

However, suppose we really have a much greater destiny than houseflies but because of your “housefly” proposition you have gone around treating others and yourself as if all were mere houseflies, then a great deal would have been lost in the process - a tragedy in every way.

It would seem, then, that the dilemma is easily solved. Treat others and yourself as if all have an eternal destiny. Everyone is on the receiving end of a win-win solution to your quandary, no?

 

[Linusthe2nd]

This article presents a very clear view of how a purely materialist view of the world and human beings, leads to irrational behavior, and governments that are totalitarian and tolerant of any idea and action that serves a perceived, but anti-human, end.

ncregister.com/blog/benjamin-wiker/totalitarian-irrationality

Peace,
Ed

Heady stuff. And it is this " dictatorship of relativism " which has long been going on and is ever more strident in our schools, colleges, and universities and for which parents must prepare their children. If they are not prepared adequately, intellectually and spiritually, they have no chance. Linus2nd

 

[Stillness]

Therein lies the problem. You are basing conclusions on an uncertain premise.

Unfortunately, there is a great deal at stake if that premise turns out to be mistaken - a possibility that you even allow by using the word “seems”.

Suppose we are no different than houseflies but we have treated each other with great dignity and respect as if we deserved better. That would seem a good thing, would it not?

However, suppose we really have a much greater destiny than houseflies but because of your “housefly” proposition you have gone around treating others and yourself as if all were mere houseflies, then a great deal would have been lost in the process - a tragedy in every way.

It would seem, then, that the dilemma is easily solved. Treat others and yourself as if all have an eternal destiny. Everyone is on the receiving end of a win-win solution to your quandary, no?

But won’t this course of action also stem from an uncertain premise? That we have an eternal destiny?

 

[tonyrey]

I am not claiming that anything I do has a purpose. I just feel like doing it at the moment. Something not being worthwhile doesn’t necessarily mean it can’t be done. It just means that there is no reason to do it.

If there is no reason why you make your statements there is no reason why anyone should attach any significance to them!

 

[JamesATyler]

This is still a problem, though. What I want and how I want to be treated is irrelevant. Human desires and emotions don’t change certain philosophical realities. Do I want to survive and live comfortably? Yes, it is part of animal nature. But why is that morally good? It seems to be the nature of things rather than having any more purpose.

It just seems like you are reaching the natural limitation of atheism. Atheism can’t provide someone with the kind of purpose you say you lack because you are created out of mere chance. You could focus on the mystery of the laws of physics and why those laws exist. Are the laws older than the material of the universe? Or, did the laws come to be as a product of the material? If they are older then what defines the laws? Where did the laws come from? If they are younger than the material, then why does the material tend toward order? Maybe you are better at this sort of thing than me. How do you analyze it?

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Originally Posted by Stillness View Post
My point is that it seems we are no different than a housefly.

This is the logical consequence of atheism.