Touched by Tolkien

[Contarini]

Della:

Talking about our favorite movies has prompted me to ask my fellow fans of The Lord of the Rings, both movies and books, as well of the Silmarillion and other works by Tolkien, what is it about his writings that touch you or have special meaning for you.

I think for me it’s the consistent theme that goodness triumphs just by existing, however threatened it may be. “Above all mountains rides, the Sun, and stars forever dwell,” etc.

One of my single favorite moments is when Gandalf tells Denethor, “All good things in peril as the world now stands, these are my care. And I will not count my labor wholly lost if anything should pass through this night that may bear flower or fruit in times to come. For I also am a steward. Did you not know?”

(N.B. This is quoted from memory–I know it’s not exact.)

Edwin

 

[Jeanette_L]

I am not at all an expert on Tolkien, or the Lord of the Rings, but I did see the movies and was very touched by them. The most memorable scene for me was (and I’m going to screw this up because it has been awhile, and I don’t even remember the names of the characters, pathetic, I know):

When the one warrior had just succumbed to the temptation of the ring and was trying to take it from Froto and then all the bad guys (don’t know what to call those ugly beasts!) started to attack and the warrior switched gears and defended Froto so he could escape, the warrior was mortally wounded, and then he confessed his failure to the king (?) and told him he would have fought by his side, and called him his friend, and then his king, and the king forgave him before he died.

Of course I did this scene no justice, but when I saw it for the first time, I think I cried for ten minutes, I was so touched. I understood the spiritual lesson of repentance and forgiveness and grace. It was beautiful.

 

[Della]

Pacbox wrote:

The scene I remember the most from The Fellowship of the Ring is where Frodo tells the council, “I will go but I do not know the way.”

Yes, I was struck by that when I first heard it too (in the 1970’s Ralph Bakshi cartoon version). It put me in mind of Abraham setting out from his home on nothing more than God’s promises and of the Holy Family traveling into Egypt because Joseph had a dream (the same theme of a dream impelling action also is seen in the scene from the Jackson film in which Boromir describes a dream he had which confirmed the need for him to travel to Rivendell [in the book no summons had been sent out by Elrond]. In the book Faramir had also had the same dream).

And the Hobbits are delightful. In their simplicity and straightforward way they express their feelings for one another unabashedly. Their greatest joy is relating the small doings of their children and recalling the legends about their ancestors, such as good old Bullroarer Took.

Contarini wrote:

I think for me it’s the consistent theme that goodness triumphs just by existing, however threatened it may be. “Above all mountains rides, the Sun, and stars forever dwell,” etc.

The theme began in the Silmarillion carries on in LOTR in this scene. As I recall it was Sam who made this observation, showing how much he had grown from a simple Hobbit unconcerned with the affairs of the world except how they impacted him. Quite the moving scene, quite an insight in the midst of the ruin that was Mordor.

Contarini wrote:

One of my single favorite moments is when Gandalf tells Denethor, “All good things in peril as the world now stands, these are my care. And I will not count my labor wholly lost if anything should pass through this night that may bear flower or fruit in times to come. For I also am a steward. Did you not know?”

And what a contrast between the despair of Denethor and the “fool’s hope” of Gandalf! Faith, hope, and love shown in their proper proportions in the example of Gandalf’s life and mission.

Jeanette L wrote:

When the one warrior had just succumbed to the temptation of the ring and was trying to take it from Froto and then all the bad guys (don’t know what to call those ugly beasts!) started to attack and the warrior switched gears and defended Froto so he could escape, the warrior was mortally wounded, and then he confessed his failure to the king (?) and told him he would have fought by his side, and called him his friend, and then his king, and the king forgave him before he died.

Of course I did this scene no justice, but when I saw it for the first time, I think I cried for ten minutes, I was so touched. I understood the spiritual lesson of repentance and forgiveness and grace. It was beautiful.

On the contrary, you did the scene ample justice and then some! It is a beautiful scene–one that no modern author would have come up with. Our tears for Boromir aren’t bitter because he made a good end. The same can be said for Frodo for he too succumbed to the temptation of the ring at the last and but for the compassion he had shown in allowing Gollum to live, his mission would have failed and he wouldn’t have been the hero but the villain. Tolkien’s insight in human nature was more than that of mere psychology, it was spiritual and more than merely spiritual it was Christian, the insights of a man of profound faith and personal holiness.

 

[Della]

Bump!

 

[Emly]

I love the scene too, (the one where sam thinks Frodo is dead) okay to tell you the truth, I am just reading the trilgy, and I’ve only finished part one of the Two Towars (I read all of Fellowship) but it was moving in the movies with Sean Astin. I was crying when I first saw it.

But the scenes in Mordor are planly powerful…

Tolkin’s one flaw is that he does have a tendency to (as sadi on the Fellowship dbd( go on and on and on. IF I eer edited the book, I could cut out about 100 pages. But in a way it only increases the creditbility of the world.

In spite of some narritive that does go on and on, I really liked all the stories of Aragorn, Pipin, and Sam. It was a simple story aboutt destroying the ring…but it was so much more. Tolkin really did inspire me to whrite this story, that will never be published lol.

 

[rocklobster]

The thing I always liked was how messed up Gollum was. He’s just so creepy, and that’s the whole point. He is so consumed by his greed and his lust for the Ring that he can think of nothing else. It makes him such a grotesque figure that sometimes you almost pity him.

 

[Della]

The thing I always liked was how messed up Gollum was. He’s just so creepy, and that’s the whole point. He is so consumed by his greed and his lust for the Ring that he can think of nothing else. It makes him such a grotesque figure that sometimes you almost pity him.

Yes, as another poster cited, Frodo had nothing but loathing for Gollum before he met him, and thought he, Gollum, ought to have been executed for his crimes. Then, when Frodo sees the ruin that Gollum truly is, he says, “Now that I see him, I do pity him.” Powerful words! And what a challenge to us–to pity (in the Christian sense of the word) those ruined by sin and corruption, and to not be too quick to judge what ought to happen to them.

 

[Liberalsaved]

The thing I always liked was how messed up Gollum was. He’s just so creepy, and that’s the whole point. He is so consumed by his greed and his lust for the Ring that he can think of nothing else. It makes him such a grotesque figure that sometimes you almost pity him.

Geek moment. Gollum is in fact described as not having been wholly corrupted by the ring. It’s cited, I beleive by Gandalf, as evidence of the strength of Hobbits.

 

[Della]

Geek moment. Gollum is in fact described as not having been wholly corrupted by the ring. It’s cited, I beleive by Gandalf, as evidence of the strength of Hobbits.

Yes, which is why it’s so heartbreaking that Gollum (Smeagol) was just on the verge of repenting his wicked intentions towards Frodo when Sam was rough with him and spoiled the moment. Another warning to us to be careful about condemning those we think are “too far gone” to be reclaimed, isn’t it?

 

[Liberalsaved]

Yes, which is why it’s so heartbreaking that Gollum (Smeagol) was just on the verge of repenting his wicked intentions towards Frodo when Sam was rough with him and spoiled the moment. Another warning to us to be careful about condemning those we think are “too far gone” to be reclaimed, isn’t it?

Ah, but if he had repented, Sauron may have won. I like the way Tolkien presents themes of fate and chance without ever saying “Yes, it would have been better this way.”

 

[Della]

Ah, but if he had repented, Sauron may have won. I like the way Tolkien presents themes of fate and chance without ever saying “Yes, it would have been better this way.”

I like the way Tolkien balanced “fate and chance,” too, but it isn’t a given that Frodo’s mission would have failed if Gollum would have repented. I can think of at least 3 scenarios in which the mission would still have succeeded, and I’m sure others could come up with much more than this. I don’t believe Tolkien’s message was that Gollum’s hardening of heart was necessary to the success of Frodo’s mission, but rather that God (although God is not mentioned) can make good come out of evil–something Frodo himself recognized as the case.

 

[Liberalsaved]

I like the way Tolkien balanced “fate and chance,” too, but it isn’t a given that Frodo’s mission would have failed if Gollum would have repented.

I know. That’s my point.

 

[Victorious]

Yes, I love that scene too. In the book Sam argues with himself about his fitness to carry on the mission. He’s a servant who thinks he shouldn’t be taking on himself what his “betters” were called to do. Fortunately for Middle Earth, he conquers mere social convention, wins through to true humility, and takes the ring, promising to come back when he has completed the great task his beloved Mr. Frodo fell attempting to do. Truly beautiful.

Actually, I dispute that it was mere social convention that made Sam reluctant to take on the Ring. I think that interpretation is most unfair, as it detracts from Sam’s nobility of heart. Sam in his simplicity may have framed the inner debate in terms of his place as a servant, but what we were really seeing was genuine humility. A good Hobbit has got to know his limitations (to paraphrase Dirty Harry) and Sam knows his limitations. He doesn’t want to be all-powerful, because he knows the power of the Ring is too much for him. (It is in fact too much for anybody, including his “betters,” though they don’t all have the sense to realize this.) He took the Ring only because he saw that it was necessary.

Recall in the last volume how Sam is saved from succumbing to the lure of the Ring when it gives rise to wild fantasies in his mind about being Samwise the Strong, Hero of the Age, turning Mordor into a garden. The one small garden of a free gardener was all his need and due, Tolkien says, not a garden swollen to a realm; his own hands to use, not the hands of others to command. And he also realizes these fantasies are a cheat to make him reveal the Ring to Sauron. This is not the fruit of mere social convention, which is powerless before lumpen evil: this is real humility. The Ring inflames pride, so the key to resisting its lure is humility.

 

[Truthstalker]

Yes, as another poster cited, Frodo had nothing but loathing for Gollum before he met him, and thought he, Gollum, ought to have been executed for his crimes. Then, when Frodo sees the ruin that Gollum truly is, he says, “Now that I see him, I do pity him.” Powerful words! And what a challenge to us–to pity (in the Christian sense of the word) those ruined by sin and corruption, and to not be too quick to judge what ought to happen to them.

Jesus ate with the tax-gatherers and sinners. How often I am repulsed when I discover great evil in the life of someone I know, and yet God calls me to love them anyway. Frodo was given the grace to look past the evil in Gollum to the image of the Creator that was still there, no matter how distorted and tenuous that still was. Tolkien uses this to point to Gollum’s essential dignity as a (human) being despite his consuming evil. We journey through life with those who have rejected Christ or who are compromised with great evil and yet are called to look past that in them, in hope of their redemption, and to love the unlovable.

 

[Lion_of_Narnia]

I’m really surprised nobody’s mention Peter Kreeft’s take on this:

amazon.com/Philosophy-Tolkien-Worldview-Behind-Rings/dp/1586170252/sr=1-1/qid=1163017981/ref=sr_1_1/104-0088644-8215172?ie=UTF8&s=books

On on a bit of a Kreeft jag, read this, and HAD to go back an re-read LOTR. One part that really got to be was on the slopes of Mt. Doom–Frodo and Sam run into Gollum, and there is a Transfiguration moment on Frodo–and Gollum is told in no uncertain terms if he once again touches the Ring it will be the LAST time. And so it happens. Was it the Ring itself speaking?–Don’t think so. More like Iluvater (God)

 

[LittleRose]

Jesus ate with the tax-gatherers and sinners. How often I am repulsed when I discover great evil in the life of someone I know, and yet God calls me to love them anyway. Frodo was given the grace to look past the evil in Gollum to the image of the Creator that was still there, no matter how distorted and tenuous that still was. Tolkien uses this to point to Gollum’s essential dignity as a (human) being despite his consuming evil. We journey through life with those who have rejected Christ or who are compromised with great evil and yet are called to look past that in them, in hope of their redemption, and to love the unlovable.

Frodo saw his own weaknesses reflected (magnified?) in Gollum, which helped him to have some sympathy for him and to deal with him in a spirit of humility. He had to believe Gollum could be turned around. Otherwise it would mean there was little hope for himself.

 

[Victorious]

…Gollum is told in no uncertain terms if he once again touches the Ring it will be the LAST time. And so it happens. Was it the Ring itself speaking?–Don’t think so. More like Iluvater (God)

Um…actually, as I remember the passage, the voice says, “Begone, and trouble me no more! If you touch me ever again, you shall be cast yourself into the fire of Doom.” Ergo, it’s the Ring talking, not Illuvatar.

 

[corvidae]

I have to say that my favorite part never really made it into the movie.

My Favorite is the poem that goes with Aragorns name.

All that is Gold does not glitter
not all those who wander are lost
the old that is strong does not wither
deep roots are not reached by the frost
from the ashes a fire shall be woken
a light from the shadow shall spring
renewed be the blade that was broken
the crownless again shall be king.

It can be interpreted as Christ, as the Church, or as any one of us. I think that is why I love Tolkien’s work so much, is because it can be read on so many different levels and applied to so many different things, very much like the Bible.

A lone Raven

 

[Lion_of_Narnia]

Um…actually, as I remember the passage, the voice says, “Begone, and trouble me no more! If you touch me ever again, you shall be cast yourself into the fire of Doom.” Ergo, it’s the Ring talking, not Illuvatar.

Thank you, I was going off of memory there–but me thinks the Ring itself didn’t care to be cast into the fire of it’s making–it was prophesying and not realizing Gollum’s doom was it’s doom as well. And Evil person (or thing) being used for good–if thats is what it takes

 

[Della]

I have to say that my favorite part never really made it into the movie.

My Favorite is the poem that goes with Aragorns name.

All that is Gold does not glitter
not all those who wander are lost
the old that is strong does not wither
deep roots are not reached by the frost
from the ashes a fire shall be woken
a light from the shadow shall spring
renewed be the blade that was broken
the crownless again shall be king.

It can be interpreted as Christ, as the Church, or as any one of us. I think that is why I love Tolkien’s work so much, is because it can be read on so many different levels and applied to so many different things, very much like the Bible.

A lone Raven

You’ll be happy to hear that it did make it into the Extended Version (Return of the King), which I have. Peter Jackson has Arwen recite it as the Sword of Elendil is being reforged for Aragorn. I too wish PJ had included it in the Theatrical Release, but then there’s a lot I wish he had been able to include. :yup:

And I so agree with you that Tolkien’s writing has nearly the depth of Scripture itself. I truly consider LOTR spiritual reading for that reason.