Tough Question about Heaven and Hell

[tuviskazinai]

Hi all,
Although sometimes it’s a struggle, I generally accept the Church’s teachings on Heaven, Hell, and Purgatory. There is just one question that continues to bother me. I can accept that someone would choose to close himself off definitively to love and to God and that this decision not to love would mean “abiding in death” forever. …And compared to believing in Hell, believing in Heaven is even easier!

But don’t you suppose that the saints in Heaven would feel sorrowful for those in Hell…especially that they would miss their own loved ones who may have rejected the mercy of God? And wouldn’t this sadness be incompatible with the perfect bliss and communion of Paradise?

I’d be curious to know anyone’s thoughts on the matter…and I’d be especially interested to know if you could recommend any theologians, prelates, philosophers, or apologists who have treated this question.

Thank you!
+AMDG+

 

[shom-bms]

When you’re in Heaven you know all things in God and see all things from his perspective. You will see all the sins of a loved one’s life and how greatly these sins offended God. You will see that person’s final impenitence and refusal to accept God’s offer of mercy even at his or her dying breath. You will know the exact punishment your loved one deserves for these sins and for his or her refusal to repent.

When you then look at your loved one and see that he or she is receiving exactly the punishment you yourself would apply in justice, you will feel that everything is in perfect harmony and order in God’s universe. Neither your happiness nor your peace will be disturbed in the least.

 

[Alegare21]

No I don’t think this sadness is incompatible with the bliss of Heaven. The Saints most likely did (and do) feel very sad over seeing the people they know choose Hell. Our Lady came crying to two children in the hills of La Sallete, France, and gave them a message of redemption. Sadness and Sorrow are most definetly felt in Heaven.

 

[SunnaB16]

When you’re in Heaven you know all things in God and see all things from his perspective. You will see all the sins of a loved one’s life and how greatly these sins offended God. You will see that person’s final impenitence and refusal to accept God’s offer of mercy even at his or her dying breath. You will know the exact punishment your loved one deserves for these sins and for his or her refusal to repent.

When you then look at your loved one and see that he or she is receiving exactly the punishment you yourself would apply in justice, you will feel that everything is in perfect harmony and order in God’s universe. Neither your happiness nor your peace will be disturbed in the least.

Amen!
Plus: the Beatific Vision and the Union of Knowledge and Love among all of the Blessed and the Angels will give them “more to think about” than what goes on in hell.

 

[Akini]

*But don’t you suppose that the saints in Heaven would feel sorrowful for those in Hell…especially that they would miss their own loved ones who may have rejected the mercy of God? And wouldn’t this sadness be incompatible with the perfect bliss and communion of Paradise?/*QUOTE]

We can’t interpret Heaven in terms of this life. On earth we are natural beings and our natural love is directly awakened by our fellow beings. However, in Heaven God will be the direct object of our love. In other words God will be the center of our love. Also, in Heaven there no such relationships as sons, daughters, husbands or wives. Those in Heaven will be like Angels. Please, see Matthew 22:30. Also, read the Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph # 1033.

 

[Tsuwano]

Hi all,
Although sometimes it’s a struggle, I generally accept the Church’s teachings on Heaven, Hell, and Purgatory. There is just one question that continues to bother me. I can accept that someone would choose to close himself off definitively to love and to God and that this decision not to love would mean “abiding in death” forever. …And compared to believing in Hell, believing in Heaven is even easier!

But don’t you suppose that the saints in Heaven would feel sorrowful for those in Hell…especially that they would miss their own loved ones who may have rejected the mercy of God? And wouldn’t this sadness be incompatible with the perfect bliss and communion of Paradise?

I’d be curious to know anyone’s thoughts on the matter…and I’d be especially interested to know if you could recommend any theologians, prelates, philosophers, or apologists who have treated this question.

Thank you!
+AMDG+

Your question touches on something I’ve been thinking about recently, too. St. Paul states that nothing can separate us from the love of God, certainly not death or our sins. Even in the midst of sin, we are loved by God. What then, of those who exist in hell? Are they separated from the love of God? Does God stop loving those souls because they have chosen hell? Has God stopped loving the fallen angels, even though it is clear they have stopped loving him? My own thinking is that God never stops loving his creation, even that creation which fails to love him, and that his grace and forgiveness are always present to those who desire it. What does this mean in the light of the final judgement? Is the judgement to be made really God’s decision or is it our own? Is the judgement really simply a matter of God granting us our own best desire, that those desiring separation from God receive it and those desiring union with God are granted it? Of course, all things pale in the light of the beatific vision, but I think God, even when the final judgement is made, will still desire the salvation of those who have rejected him, even if they themselves can never conceive of such love. Anyway, just thinking out lout . . . I’m not expressing opinions or beliefs, just questions.

 

[tuviskazinai]

Thank you all for your replies thus far. I am hearing two things: a few who feel that we will not feel sorrow for those in Hell, and Alegare21, who doesn’t feel that sadness is incompatible with Heaven.

Alegare21, my sympathies are more with you…the image of Our Lady of La Salette is a powerful one, a good thing to point out, and something that makes me think. But it does challenge a lot of preconceptions we have about Heaven, doesn’t it? Preconceptions that find their voice even in the Holy Father’s encyclical Spe Salvi:

To imagine ourselves outside the temporality that imprisons us and in some way to sense that eternity is not an unending succession of days in the calendar, but something more like the supreme moment of satisfaction, in which totality embraces us and we embrace totality—this we can only attempt. It would be like plunging into the ocean of infinite love, a moment in which time—the before and after—no longer exists. We can only attempt to grasp the idea that such a moment is life in the full sense, a plunging ever anew into the vastness of being, in which we are simply overwhelmed with joy. This is how Jesus expresses it in Saint John’s Gospel: “I will see you again and your hearts will rejoice, and no one will take your joy from you” (16:22). We must think along these lines if we want to understand the object of Christian hope, to understand what it is that our faith, our being with Christ, leads us to expect[9].

I’ve marked lines which reference joy, although it would have been even more interesting had Benedict stopped short at saying “infinite love.” We can imagine a love shot through with sadness – the bittersweet intensity we have all felt at times in our lives – which is not pure joy but which is not thereby less perfect or beautiful.

I struggle more with comments like yours, shom-bms. Like Tsuwano, I think that God will continue to love those who despise him. I don’t see it as a matter of my agreeing to someone’s “punishment” as a matter of “justice.” The Church doesn’t teach, does it, that God punishes us with Hell. It teaches us that Hell is freely chosen. (CCC 1033!) That’s the only way I can accept a person’s going to Hell…to imagine God acquiescing to their dark desires, yet mourning the choice they’ve made. Precisely like Our Lady, as Alegare21 points out.

Akini: in Heaven there are no marriage relationships, and maybe you could infer that there won’t be family ties of any kind. But does our being like the angels mean that the angels have no feelings of love for each other? That it’s all about God? That sounds more like Buddhism, which says we don’t have selves but are all just break-away pieces of the world soul. I’m not sure whether the Church teaches that Heaven precludes any relationship with others – with the human family. Isn’t that contrary to the Communion of Saints, which is a communion among themselves and not just a group of individuals with consciousness of no one save God?

Peace,
+AMDG+

 

[Nan_S]

While we are on earth we mourn the loss and the potential loss of heaven for our family and friends, and others as well, because we know that life here includes the choice to accept or reject God, and to repent of our rejection. Until death takes us we have the opportunity to return into God’s good graces, and are afraid for those who risk losing or rejecting that grace.

When we are in Heaven, if we are even aware of the permanently lost souls and their suffering in Hell, we will completely understand why they chose to be apart from God and be at peace with the matter. And if any of us are the sort who could not cope with their loss ourselves without feeling pain, God will see to it that we are not troubled.

As to the question whether there will be family relationships in heaven, there will not be individual family units with individual marriages as we live in here. Marriage will still exist, but it will be of a completely different sort - the marriage of the Lamb to His Bride. The Bride of the Lamb is the faithful ones, the Church, the New Jerusalem.

Two completely different people, a man and a woman, can be united and become one through marriage, while still maintaining their unique individuality. So also will Christ and His Church, God and human beings, be united as one in a marriage relationship, while still maintaining their unique individuality.

Rev 19:6-9 Then I heard what seemed to be the voice of a great multitude, like the sound of many waters and like the sound of mighty thunderpeals, crying, “Hallelujah! For the Lord our God the Almighty reigns. Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready; it was granted her to be clothed with fine linen, bright and pure”-- for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints. And the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.” And he said to me, “These are true words of God.”

Rev 21:1-5 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband; and I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling of God is with men. He will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself will be with them; he will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain any more, for the former things have passed away.”
And He who sat upon the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.”

 

[twinc]

I disagree with all that has been stated thus far and also all that has been stated in the past. We have been given clues,right under our noses, to unravel this mystery and yet we seem to miss it/them.Clue 1 is that “the kingdom of heaven is within you” as is also presumably the kingdom of Hell - so here we must fathom where about within you is or could possibly be and also who is really you.The second clue is found in the dream world of pleasant dreams and nightmares - btw all our conclusions must not deviate from Catholic teaching that heaven is definately a place and so also is Hell,so we must establish exactly where these two places or any other place could possibly be and really are - more later - twinc

 

[djeter]

Heaven and Hell each possess a certain kind of freedom that Dante captured in his Divine Comedy…

The Medieval Definition Of Freedom
It is hard to recall the medieval definition of freedom, which was not the political license to follow our bellies or the philosophical encouragement to send our elders packing. Freedom was understood, rather, as a growing into the habits, the virtues, that allow us to fulfill our end as human beings without the impediments of vice.

In the Divine Comedy, the pilgrim Dante, having climbed the mountain of Purgatory and scoured away the effects of habitual sin, hears Virgil say that the fruit of joy once lost in Eden is now near. And so he fairly rushes into the freedom of being what he has been created to be:

Will above will now surged in such delight
to climb the top, that with each step I took
I felt my feathers growing for the flight.
Dante’s callow soul will soon be welcomed into the community of the blessed saints, for whom freedom means the grace-filled incapacity to will anything but the good for themselves and for one another. Thomas Aquinas steps forth from the constellation of the wise to express this freedom as the now utterly natural and supernatural virtue of love. Says he to Dante, who has been too stunned with wonder to ask his name:

When the radiance
of the Lord’s grace, which lights the flames of true
love and by love still grows in eminence,
With such multiplication shines in you
it leads you up these stairs no man may take
descending, without climbing up anew,
He who’d deny his flask of wine to slake
your thirst would not be free, would have such power
as rivers not returning to the sea!

Thomas cannot do other than love. In that very propensity, as of a rushing river, consists his freedom.

More from a wonderful essay by Anthony Esalen here:

payingattentiontothesky.com/2009/07/31/the-freedom-of-heaven-the-freedom-of-hell/

dj

 

[twinc]

I disagree with all that has been stated thus far and also all that has been stated in the past. We have been given clues,right under our noses, to unravel this mystery and yet we seem to miss it/them.Clue 1 is that “the kingdom of heaven is within you” as is also presumably the kingdom of Hell - so here we must fathom where about within you is or could possibly be and also who is really you.The second clue is found in the dream world of pleasant dreams and nightmares - btw all our conclusions must not deviate from Catholic teaching that heaven is definately a place and so also is Hell,so we must establish exactly where these two places or any other place could possibly be and really are - more later - twinc

contd…down through the centuries there have been thousands of books written about the subject of heaven.Some have been great theological tomes,some brilliant essays,others beautiful poems but still heaven eludes our grasp or understanding. Imho the nearest and closest understanding of Heaven may be gleamed from a small paperback "A Travel Guide to Heaven"by Anthony De Stefano published,quite recently, by Doubleday and also Bantam-ISBN 0-553-81564-4 - read it and come back and tell us all about Heaven - twinc

 

[twinc]

contd…down through the centuries there have been thousands of books written about the subject of heaven.Some have been great theological tomes,some brilliant essays,others beautiful poems but still heaven eludes our grasp or understanding. Imho the nearest and closest understanding of Heaven may be gleamed from a small paperback "A Travel Guide to Heaven"by Anthony De Stefano published,quite recently, by Doubleday and also Bantam-ISBN 0-553-81564-4 - read it and come back and tell us all about Heaven - twinc

btw get this travel guide before you make the journey for should you not like it when you get there would this not be hell - twinc

 

[tafan]

No I don’t think this sadness is incompatible with the bliss of Heaven. The Saints most likely did (and do) feel very sad over seeing the people they know choose Hell. Our Lady came crying to two children in the hills of La Sallete, France, and gave them a message of redemption. Sadness and Sorrow are most definetly felt in Heaven.

I agree. Happiness and sadness are not mutually exclusive. If we think of our earthly experience we can see this being the case. I am truly sad about my wife passing away, yet my kids continue to give me great happiness. I do not think that the perfect happiness of heaven implies there will be no sorrow.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

If our Lord could feel enough compassion for us to Incarnate and suffer a miserable death to expiate our sins, why should we not in heaven feel the same compassion for our loved ones in hell? Justice does not exclude compassion for those to whom justice has been served. Yet the weight of sadness is diminished by the fact that we accept hell as God’s will (and the will of the person who has transgressed), and there is nothing so commanding of our assent or so wonderful as “Thy will be done.”

 

[Moscati]

My parish priest gave a homily on this once–someone had come to him and asked him why we didn’t pray for the souls in hell. He mentioned all the things we do know about hell: that it was designed for the Enemy and his fallen angels, not us; that Christ descended into hell, according to the creed, and so on. I remember he asked, rhetorically “Can the love of God fail?” i.e. could someone really be so lost and hard of heart that they turned away forever? It seemed to me like that would be very, very hard to do . . . considering the enormity of the love of Christ! I got to wondering whether in fact there weren’t really all that many people in Hell. Just a thought. Obviously it remains a possibility, and ought to be a deterrent for us, but I do wonder . . .

 

[twinc]

My parish priest gave a homily on this once–someone had come to him and asked him why we didn’t pray for the souls in hell. He mentioned all the things we do know about hell: that it was designed for the Enemy and his fallen angels, not us; that Christ descended into hell, according to the creed, and so on. I remember he asked, rhetorically “Can the love of God fail?” i.e. could someone really be so lost and hard of heart that they turned away forever? It seemed to me like that would be very, very hard to do . . . considering the enormity of the love of Christ! I got to wondering whether in fact there weren’t really all that many people in Hell. Just a thought. Obviously it remains a possibility, and ought to be a deterrent for us, but I do wonder . . .

Moscati - the breaking news or the heart breaking news is it seems is that most people will be in Hell and only a few in heaven - someone estimated only 4% - so lets see 1/Jesus said “fear not little flock,it is your Father’s good fortune to give you the kingdom” 2 “wide is the gate and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction : and many there are that go in thereat”.How narrow is the gate and straith the way that leadeth to life and few there are that find it" - jimc

 

[Moscati]

Thanks for the Scripture.

I am curious how one would go about estimating who is going to heaven. 4% seems like a rather specific number for something only God can know.

 

[Mike_Dye]

Thanks for the Scripture.

I am curious how one would go about estimating who is going to heaven. 4% seems like a rather specific number for something only God can know.

Yeah I know, I thought I heard somewhere it was around 5 1/4 %.

 

[StrawberryJam]

Thanks for the Scripture.

I am curious how one would go about estimating who is going to heaven. 4% seems like a rather specific number for something only God can know.

Good for you for refusing to accept a naked assertion like that.
I would like to know who made this speculation and how they arrived at this percentage.
but, even if I did get that information I will bet I won’t be allowed to point out any errors in their process.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

Hi all,
Although sometimes it’s a struggle, I generally accept the Church’s teachings on Heaven, Hell, and Purgatory. There is just one question that continues to bother me. I can accept that someone would choose to close himself off definitively to love and to God and that this decision not to love would mean “abiding in death” forever. …And compared to believing in Hell, believing in Heaven is even easier!

But don’t you suppose that the saints in Heaven would feel sorrowful for those in Hell…especially that they would miss their own loved ones who may have rejected the mercy of God? And wouldn’t this sadness be incompatible with the perfect bliss and communion of Paradise?

I’d be curious to know anyone’s thoughts on the matter…and I’d be especially interested to know if you could recommend any theologians, prelates, philosophers, or apologists who have treated this question.

Thank you!
+AMDG+

I’ve written on this site a number of times that the my father appeared “spirituallly” in my room the night he died. He started with an apology, we argued and conversed, and he then disappeared, but not before giving a terrifying scream at something that he could obviously see coming for him (but I couldn’t see it - just him).

However during the conversation he made a comment, “I always was doomed! I didn’t really have any choice!” I argued back, saying that “couldn’t be right!” He replied, “Oh, it’s right all right. You can see that from here.” Yet later he admitted he was deliberately cruel, saying “I was WILLING”. I think he was very willing personally.

Now he was Catholic but lost his faith. He had two sisters who kept their faith, they both died within the last five years. When they did, I had a sense of peace, as though they were trying to communicate something. I get this sense when some people I know die. When my old Protestant pastor died, I had this sense of peace for a good half an hour.

So I don’t know the answer. They obviously would have known of his fate once they themselves had passed throught to eternal life. Yet I never mentioned the episode with my father to them, as for one thing my family was a bit estranged from our relatives (more a case of avoidance than emotion), and secondly I didn’t particularly want to tell them that I was pretty certain their brother was in hell.

So how they could be “at peace” whilst knowing, and possibly even able to see, his fate, I do not know. I even suspect that damned souls become quite hideous in appearance as well.

I can only assume, as my father himself said, “Oh, it’s right all right. You can see that from here!”