Trad forum

[Indyann]

Oh, dear…

We promote reverence, knoweldge, and full participation in every aspect of the Church. Was not Vatican II very focused on this idea?

We ‘rally the troops,’ yes, but we rally them TO the Church and FOR the Church. You cannot spin it any other way.

Unfortunately, you “rally the troups” TO the Church and FOR the Church, only as you would LIKE it to be.

Fortunately, most of us live with the reality, that we seek our salvation with the simple prayer “Jesus, I Trust in You.”

We trust His Vicars on earth, past and present.
We feel no need to be in control of the Church.

Calling a soon to be canonized Pope “scandalous” is a grave disservice to the Church.

 

[Walking_Home]

With all due respect, I believe that Jeanette’s post was expressing a grave concern for those who come to this** forum looking for answers to their faith journey.**

I believe that this is more important to the most Sacred Heart of Jesus than an alleged terrorist threat made by Mother Angelica.

We should respect this concern for souls who are seeking the Church and respond to that. Selectioning the piece on Mother Angelica and adding the alleged threat, does nothing to encourage our ministry to those who come here in search of truth.

In fact, it may just deter them at the door, if they believe that this actually happened. Which I happen to know that this was never the case. The case was completely different and was not meant for public digestion. That’s why it’s not published.

The media created this alleged terrorist frenzy on the part of Mother. Mother’s heart is not there. Her heart is with the Church and our holy father Francis. When told to obey, she obeys, she does not threaten.

Her television network is not her work. It is the work of the Holy Spirit through the Church. She is just an instrument, like her father Francis wanted her to be.

He did not found our second order of nuns to be in conflict with the Church, but to be obedient until death, even when they were right. Our holy mother Clare was his primary example of this.

Like Clare and Francis, Mother and Jeanette share the same concern for those who are cracking the door open to look inside the Church and see what’s there.

We too should be united to this concern and focus on this point, not on little points that we pick up here and there.

The conversion of souls is more important that any comment allegedly made by Mother.

I said allegedly, because this comment was never made in this context.

Let us recover what is really important, our ministry to those who are searching and ignore the petty gossip that goes around.

Please pray for me.

Fraternally in St. Francis,

JR

---

I am all for people searching for answers — but it pretty diffucult for them to find —when traditionalists willing to give answers --are more often than not --cut off and pounced upon by others of a different bent. Maybe --if some took a vacation from this forum --and let this forum be what it was meant to be—there would be little need for threads like this.

 

[JReducation]

---

I am all for people searching for answers — but it pretty diffucult for them to find —when traditionalists willing to give answers --are more often than not --cut off and pounced upon by others of a different bent. Maybe --if some took a vacation from this forum --and let this forum be what it was meant to be—there would be little need for threads like this.

Bold is mine.

Actually, now that Walking Home uses the term “threads like this” am I the only who just realized that this thread has lost the focus with which it began?

The original question on the table was asking Jo Benedict or any moderator to help with the abuse and lack of charity on the Trad sub - forum. If I remember correctly way back to the orignal five posts, Jo Benedict said that she welcomed suggestions and we have not given her any.

We’ve been uptown and downtown about three or four times. I feel like a kid who did not do his homework. LOL

Does anyone think we can go back to the beginning of the thread and do the assignment or are we too far gone off the OP?

JR

 

[OnlyAmbrose]

I guess thats the difference, most of us did stick around. We didn’t pull up stakes and leave We put up with all the abuses, all the nonsense in the name of inclusiveness and ecumenism and took it literally in the shorts. We heard the Priests, many of the the same one that you defend, tell us the Old Mass was dead and good riddance, we listened as they mocked the old devotions and claimed they not only were unscriptural but unnecessary baggage and should be rightfully dumped. We saw Bishops Priests and Nuns do their level best to destroy devotion to the Blessed Mother and they did a real good job until Pope John Paul II stood up and put them in their place.

We listened to the homilies that extolled man and all his glory and diminished Christ and God and the Holy Spirit. We sat in the pews and saw the Mass turned from a solemn reverent re-presentation of the sacrifice at Calvary into a glittery showpiece for bands and Priests who styled themselves as rockstars or comedians. We listened horrified as the Priests told us that committed homosexual relationships were OK and understandable and that God loved all sexuality and why not, he gave it to us to enjoy? We suffered through the Masses where laymen and women not only gave the homilies, but read the Gospels and confected the Eucharist.

Yeah we stuck around in spite of all that, every last bit of while the progressives and therefore right thinkers had their way and openly mocked everything that was even remotely traditional. We stayed. A few gave up and drifted off in the sede camps but most of us are still here. We stayed, we suffered and we obeyed.

And now the tide has started to change, now more and more and more people see just how destructive the last forty years have been, now that traditional devotions are actually being practiced again now that so many young people are seeing for the first time what great treasures almost got swept away, you ask why we stayed?.

I’ll tell you why, because if we hadn’t stayed the progressives would have had their way. They almost did, almost. But not quite:thumbsup: .And with Pope Benedict XVI steering the ship, I don’t really think they ever will

I wonder, just how many progressive right thinking people would have stuck around had the situations been reversed. Actually, I think I’m going to rather enjoy the next couple of years. Maybe I’ll get a chance to find out.

Great post.

 

[Rawb]

Going to jump in here pages after the first post, if I may, to address a certain trend I see emerging.

There seems to be some here who worry about what the average Joe is going to see when he comes here seeking questions about Catholicism. Well, as having been that average Joe, I can say that when I saw people fighting, arguing, debating, I knew this was it.

These people CARED! They got PASSIONATE about their faith! I was so sick of people thinking “Well the pastor has it taken care of” or “Let’s just pray about it, it’s not for us to decide”. These people appeared weak and wishy wishy washy to me. By contrast, the Catholics on this board were firm believers who weren’t willing to compromise their beliefs in order to maintain peace (As Christ’s example leads us, when He threw from the temple the money changers).

Yes I realized The Church wasn’t perfect. Good. I didn’t want a perfect Church. I know my opinion won’t change things, but having a place to debate them and flesh them out has helped my faith grow more than sitting around and agreeing to disagree for the sake of possible converts ever would have. Sometimes you might have to take a break from the board, but it’s there when you’re ready to come back.

So those who are worried about ‘negativity’ chasing away converts, don’t. Some of us are so sick of a false harmony presented to ‘outsiders’ to entice them to convert that the blatant honesty of forums such as the Traditionalist board here at CA gets us running to RCIA.

 

[Like]

Rawb, I believe you have it right on. Certainly good food for thought.

 

[Cat]

Books and periodicals are by and large in house discussions. They are not the types of venues that the average layman or casual enquirer are going to stumble upon when perusing the internet looking for answers as to whether the Catholic Church is in fact the one true Church.

I am talking about what people see when they come here looking for the Church. Looking for peace. Looking for a safe haven, the Truth.

You and I are talking apples and oranges.

Mother Angelica was talking mostly to a Catholic audience. And if I’m not mistaken, and correct me if I’m wrong about this (I’m sure you will ) was asked to soften things a bit when she came up against the authority of her own bishop, and she eventually humbly obeyed.

There is a huge difference between in house disputes and how to deal with them appropriately, and hanging out the dirty laundry in public, so that all who come here looking for the faith of our Church will go away confused and disappointed. A stumbling block.

Does this make sense?

This forum is called Catholic Answers, whose mission is to reach the seekers of the faith. It has been turned into a gripe session, more than likely turning more away than drawing them in.

Does this make sense?

I’m saying keep the in house stuff, in house. Go through the appropriate channels. The proper places to discuss in house disputes.

My heart is for the potential convert. I was there once. This place was not like it is now. I found real answers. Had I run into what goes on here now, it more than likely would have taken me much longer to find my way. I was not looking for another church filled with turmoil.

I hope you understand what I am saying and where I am coming from. I don’t mean to be disrespectful to you or your concerns. I am asking everyone here to think beyond what they are currently thinking about.

To go back to the OP and make suggestions–I have suggested several times that the Traditional Forum be CLOSED to new converts and those who are not Catholics.

The Church Herself defines a new convert this way: has gone through RCIA (a one-year training), has been received into the Church, and has gone through one year of mystagogy (more training). I think that is reasonable.

This could be done here on CAF. Obviously people are going to lie. But I think many people would honor the “rules” of the Board and not attempt to force their way into the Traditional Forum until they were past the two year point. As for non-Catholics, well, again, some will lie, but I trust that most people would honor the rules and stay away.

Even if CAF didn’t actually ban new converts and seekers from the Traditional Sectional, they could at least put a strong warning at the beginning of the forum, informing people that they will read things that are contrary to Church teaching, and that the Moderators don’t always have time to delete these posts right away. CAF could urge people to check out the Bible, the Catechism of the Catholic Church, or speak with their local priests and diocescan authorities about any disturbing questions.

Although I respect Rawb’s contribution to this thread, I disagree with him/her. People do not convert from evangelical, Pentecostal, or fundamental Protesantism easily. These sects of Christianity are extremely consuming–my entire life was wrapped up in my evangelical churches and ministries. I think this is even more true for Pentecostal and fundamentalist Christians.

Only a catastrophe causes people to walk away from these sects.

I believe that Mainline and non-denominational Protestants may have an easier time walking away, because so much false teachings are propagated in some of these sects (not all). The Christian who is hungering and thirsting after righteousness becomes disgusted with the false teachings and the wishy-washiness that Rawb described that they eventually leave.

But evangelicals, Pentecostals, and fundamentalists are part of something that is their whole life. I know I’m not explaining this well; former members of the sects will understand me. I apologize if I’m not making it clear to those of you who were born and raised Catholic.

To leave the evangelical, Pentecostal, or fundamentalist fold is to die to a life. This isn’t done easily.

And coming to the Catholic Church is even more difficult, as many Christians in these three sects have been taught that this Church isn’t even Christian (or worse). I know evangelicals, Pentecostals, and fundamentalists who absolutely refuse to enter a Catholic Church, even for a wedding or a funeral. They consider it the abode of Satan.

Am I getting across the struggle that evangelicals, Pentecostals, and fundamentalists go through in making the decision to become Catholic?

And IMO, coming here and seeing all the internal struggles is NOT helpful. It makes the seeker want to abandon ALL organized religion and just go it alone. After all, we know we can trust Jesus. But all the rest of the world, we don’t trust.

Many evangelicals, Pentecostals, and fundamentalists leave their sect because of a crisis, a disaster. In our case, we were actually kicked out of our Evangelical Free Church. There was a tribunal, with judges (that we had never met), and they told us to leave.

That was incredibly hurtful! It took two years before I would even consider looking into another church.

I think a lot of evangelicals, Pentecostals, and fundamentalists have been horribly wounded, hurt, or nearly killed in their sects. These people will NOT be lifted up by the non-charitable tone of the debates on this forum.

Passion for the truth? Perhaps. But I think there is a fine line between passion and anger. Anger is not a sin, if it is dealt with properly, as one of the posters here has suggested (Pray, Go the Proper Authorities, Trust). Yet some of you continue to question her wise advice, which is straight out of the Bible (Matthew 5 and Matthew 18).

For people who are hurting, wounded, injured, or near death, anger will not help them. It will hurt them more. Passion may help them, but only if it is accompanied by much charity, the kind of charity that stops, binds up their wounds, and carries them to the hospital on their own mule.

I hope my analogy is clear.

I think that when debates are done charitably, free of sarcasm and name-calling, it could be edifying to a seeker, who sees that controversy can exist without tearing the Church apart like it does in Protestant circles.

When I was going through RCIA, a very wise teacher told us that the Catholic Church is a big umbrella, sheltering all kinds of people. She said that all the various orders and apostolates are different, but they are still Catholic, loyal to Rome.

So I still cling to her comment when I read these Boards. I know that most of the posters who argue passionately are really, truly Catholic, just different.

BTW, one more suggestion for the Moderators: I think that sarcastic comments should be deleted, and sarcasm ought to be grounds for banning. It is hurtful and confusing.

 

[ibkc]

Going to jump in here pages after the first post, if I may, to address a certain trend I see emerging.

There seems to be some here who worry about what the average Joe is going to see when he comes here seeking questions about Catholicism. Well, as having been that average Joe, I can say that when I saw people fighting, arguing, debating, I knew this was it.

These people CARED! They got PASSIONATE about their faith! I was so sick of people thinking “Well the pastor has it taken care of” or “Let’s just pray about it, it’s not for us to decide”. These people appeared weak and wishy wishy washy to me. By contrast, the Catholics on this board were firm believers who weren’t willing to compromise their beliefs in order to maintain peace (As Christ’s example leads us, when He threw from the temple the money changers).

Yes I realized The Church wasn’t perfect. Good. I didn’t want a perfect Church. I know my opinion won’t change things, but having a place to debate them and flesh them out has helped my faith grow more than sitting around and agreeing to disagree for the sake of possible converts ever would have. Sometimes you might have to take a break from the board, but it’s there when you’re ready to come back.

So those who are worried about ‘negativity’ chasing away converts, don’t. Some of us are so sick of a false harmony presented to ‘outsiders’ to entice them to convert that the blatant honesty of forums such as the Traditionalist board here at CA gets us running to RCIA.

I have to say, as a new convert (came into the Church this past Easter) that this was my experience as well. My first approaches to the Catholic Church were frustrating, to say the least, and I came away with the impression that the Catholic Church I was looking for no longer existed. It was reading these forums that I learned that the traditional church does still exist, that it is vigorous and gaining support with each passing year, and that it can be found if a person only knows where to look.

As for suggestions on how to make this forum better: I think shutting it down entirely would be folly, because the discussions would spill out into the other parts of the forum. I think closing it off to non-Catholics and seekers would be folly, because that assumes that seekers are not adults who would like to familiarize themselves with the issues and trends within the Church. It also assumes that the “non-trad” position is the default valid one, and given the Holy Father’s numerous writings on the subject of spirituality and the way the liturgy supports and expresses our faith, I don’t think that assumption is the correct one.

I would simply like to see more even-handed moderation here. Time and again what happens is that someone argues from a traditional viewpoint - or sometimes, just a very conservative viewpoint - using authors like Davies, Duffy and even Pope Benedict himself. And then gets besieged by people who seem to take personal offense that these issues even exist and that anyone would dare to discuss them. No naming names, but there are a few people here who consistently add nothing to the discussion beyond sarcastic “humor” and ad hominem remarks. The thrust seems to be that anyone who even cares about preserving tradition must be personally defective. This is also seen, to a lesser extent, in the Liturgy and Sacraments forum where conservative liturgical advocates are under constant attack. I think that if in these discussions, everyone were held to the same standard of behavior, we’d see the pressure level fall pretty dramatically.

 

[ethelzguy]

What strikes me, is those who feel that it is their divine right to criticize the Church or others within the Church. They have no qualms about who or what they criticize.

But, when they get taken to task for their criticisms, they get offended.

Unprovoked posts and threads that “attack” the traditional viewpoint are few and far between. Quite common however, are threads and posts that clearly open the door to Church bashing. Some are so blatanly “bait and bash” that it’s almost laughable.

The sense of superiority displayed by most folks in the traditionalist camp is clear to all, except perhaps to themselves.

 

[MrS]

The problem is that new Catholics and inquirers into the Catholic Church do not have the experience, knowledge, or discernment to pick out what is correct from what isn’t.

Shouldn’t these “little ones” be protected? I think so.

Because I was kicked out of my Protestant church (Evangelical Free Church in America) by “pastors” using “the Bible” to justify their ousting, I have true problems with “Trust” issues.

What I am sorely tempted to do is chuck it all. I was screwed by a church once before and it was so painful that I still have nightmares about it. My younger daughter is not involved in any church because she doesn’t trust them.

At this point, I am not ready to toss the Catholic Church away for the sake of a group of internet whiners who might not even be Catholic. Until my bishop, priests, and lay teachers do something to betray my trust in them, I’ll trust that THEY know more than the “police” on this Forum.

So you see, there is more to it than allowing posters to be “negative.” If this “negativity” is turning people away from the Church, then it should be stopped. If these people want to be “negative,” then why can’t they take it to Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament and share their woes with Him? Oh…sorry, I forgot–they can’t get to the Blessed Sacrament because it’s surrounded by kneeling teenagers or liturgical dancers or guitar players strumming Haugan and Haas music.

Cat, in all sincerity, you have real issues. You talk of how new Catholics might not have the experience and discernment concerning some topics/issues posted at the CAF. No offense intended, but you are still a new Catholic too. Maybe it is just me, but I notice you are just as “opinionated” as those whom you critique.

I purposely use the word critique not criticize. Your (name removed by moderator)ut is healthy, and not like that of some outright stubborn posters who come from both sides of the TLM issue (most from the NO-is-great side, though ).

Internet whiners - and their woes… apply to both sides. I would think that those coming from a protestant background would recognize even more clearly the teenagers or liturgical dancers or guitar players strumming Haugan and Haas that many Catholics are concerned about. Being a strong and consistent Catholic is probably the most difficult thing to do because we are constantly offered the “new” and “modern” and “relevant” things to do in our beliefs and liturgy.

You are right, Adoration is a wonderful respite… but have you ever thought of where you most often will find Adoration available??

.

 

[MrS]

I guess thats the difference, most of us did stick around. We didn’t pull up stakes and leave We put up with all the abuses, all the nonsense in the name of inclusiveness and ecumenism and took it literally in the shorts. We heard the Priests, many of the the same one that you defend, tell us the Old Mass was dead and good riddance, we listened as they mocked the old devotions and claimed they not only were unscriptural but unnecessary baggage and should be rightfully dumped. We saw Bishops Priests and Nuns do their level best to destroy devotion to the Blessed Mother and they did a real good job until Pope John Paul II stood up and put them in their place.

We listened to the homilies that extolled man and all his glory and diminished Christ and God and the Holy Spirit. We sat in the pews and saw the Mass turned from a solemn reverent re-presentation of the sacrifice at Calvary into a glittery showpiece for bands and Priests who styled themselves as rockstars or comedians. We listened horrified as the Priests told us that committed homosexual relationships were OK and understandable and that God loved all sexuality and why not, he gave it to us to enjoy? We suffered through the Masses where laymen and women not only gave the homilies, but read the Gospels and confected the Eucharist.

Yeah we stuck around in spite of all that, every last bit of while the progressives and therefore right thinkers had their way and openly mocked everything that was even remotely traditional. We stayed. A few gave up and drifted off in the sede camps but most of us are still here. We stayed, we suffered and we obeyed.

And now the tide has started to change, now more and more and more people see just how destructive the last forty years have been, now that traditional devotions are actually being practiced again now that so many young people are seeing for the first time what great treasures almost got swept away, you ask why we stayed?.

I’ll tell you why, because if we hadn’t stayed the progressives would have had their way. They almost did, almost. But not quite:thumbsup: .And with Pope Benedict XVI steering the ship, I don’t really think they ever will

I wonder, just how many progressive right thinking people would have stuck around had the situations been reversed. Actually, I think I’m going to rather enjoy the next couple of years. Maybe I’ll get a chance to find out.

My thoughts exactly… thanks for the post… and it was all civil and honest too!!!

.

 

[cathguy]

I have to say, as a new convert (came into the Church this past Easter) that this was my experience as well. My first approaches to the Catholic Church were frustrating, to say the least, and I came away with the impression that the Catholic Church I was looking for no longer existed. It was reading these forums that I learned that the traditional church does still exist, that it is vigorous and gaining support with each passing year, and that it can be found if a person only knows where to look.

As for suggestions on how to make this forum better: I think shutting it down entirely would be folly, because the discussions would spill out into the other parts of the forum. I think closing it off to non-Catholics and seekers would be folly, because that assumes that seekers are not adults who would like to familiarize themselves with the issues and trends within the Church. It also assumes that the “non-trad” position is the default valid one, and given the Holy Father’s numerous writings on the subject of spirituality and the way the liturgy supports and expresses our faith, I don’t think that assumption is the correct one.

I would simply like to see more even-handed moderation here. Time and again what happens is that someone argues from a traditional viewpoint - or sometimes, just a very conservative viewpoint - using authors like Davies, Duffy and even Pope Benedict himself. And then gets besieged by people who seem to take personal offense that these issues even exist and that anyone would dare to discuss them. No naming names, but there are a few people here who consistently add nothing to the discussion beyond sarcastic “humor” and ad hominem remarks. The thrust seems to be that anyone who even cares about preserving tradition must be personally defective. This is also seen, to a lesser extent, in the Liturgy and Sacraments forum where conservative liturgical advocates are under constant attack. I think that if in these discussions, everyone were held to the same standard of behavior, we’d see the pressure level fall pretty dramatically.

 

[ethelzguy]

What is even more interesting, is to read the posts from those who get all disturbed when the Pope does or says anything that doesn’t take us back to 1958.

Distribute Communion on the tongue to someone on a kneeler and the traditionalist camp is dancing in the streets, Add Luminous Mysteries to the rosary, and all heck breaks loose. “How dare he tamper with tradition?”…or… “How dare he tamper with the Stations of the Cross?” Oops, he’s the Pope.

Some seem to forget, that every “tradition” that they hold so dear was something “new” at some point in Church history.

How ironic, that those traditionalists who bandy about the term “Cafeteria Catholic” are often the worst offenders of all.

 

[Joe_5859]

I came across this thread and it seems related to this discussion:

I still just don’t get it

The OP of that thread is a non-Catholic who has obviously been scandalized by the bickering among Catholics on these forums. Our in-fighting makes it very difficult for a non-Catholic to accept the fact that the Catholic Church is “one”. Of course, the unity of the Church doesn’t depend on each and every Catholic sharing the same opinion on everything, but when you have Catholics arguing over whether or not the Catechism or a pope is heretical, that’s not a small thing.

 

[OnlyAmbrose]

How ironic, that those traditionalists who bandy about the term “Cafeteria Catholic” are often the worst offenders of all.

While I personally enjoy the Luminous mysteries, I think this is a very low accusation, and quite baseless in most cases. Just because a traditional Catholic doesn’t like a certain devotion doesn’t mean s/he believes that it’s invalid.

A cafeteria Catholic in my understanding is someone who claims to be Catholic but then refuses to accept certain teachings of the Church. That’s not the case in most of us here! We accept the OF mass as valid! I attend OF masses from time to time! Just because I prefer TLM and wish the Church could/would go back to TLM doesn’t mean I deny the Church’s teaching.

 

[OnlyAmbrose]

I came across this thread and it seems related to this discussion:

I still just don’t get it

The OP of that thread is a non-Catholic who has obviously been scandalized by the bickering among Catholics on these forums. Our in-fighting makes it very difficult for a non-Catholic to accept the fact that the Catholic Church is “one”. Of course, the unity of the Church doesn’t depend on each and every Catholic sharing the same opinion on everything, but when you have Catholics arguing over whether or not the Catechism or a pope is heretical, that’s not a small thing.

So what would you prefer that we do? Pretend that there aren’t disagreements in the Church? Or should we instead try to learn something together by discussing them?

A Protestant here who’s not seeking probably isn’t going to find anything. Someone who comes here with it on their hearts to find something wrong with the Church won’t have a hard time of it regardless of whether or not we keep our opinions to themselves. If we just pretended to be in agreement on everything we’d be accused (with some justification, in fact) of simply being robots. Either way they will find something wrong with Catholics. And anywho, I do believe I’ve read in one of St. Paul’s writings that we are supposed to hold our Bishops accountable.

Those who ARE seeking, on the other hand, aren’t necessarily put off by the debate in this forum, as evidenced by the two converts who just posted.

If you continue down this line of thought, friend, you’ll eventually just have to ban debate between Catholics, because it’s bad PR and we couldn’t have the world thinking that we aren’t one big happy family. Families, even good families, bicker. And good family members certainly try to do what’s best for the family as a whole, even though they may disagree on what that is.

:twocents:

 

[James0235]

It seems like the mods there let folks there get away with alot more negativity than any of the other boards. It’s really a detriment, since just giving the front page of that forum a look, it seems like a majority of the threads there are full of mean-spirited arguments, whereas if those were in the Liturgy and Sacraments forum, they’d be shut down within a day. Any way we could clean it up?

I think it might be helpful to recall the origins of the Traditional Catholicism Forum on CAF.

While I am sure that it was not officially set up this way, the TC Forum was, at least in the beginning, used by some of the moderators as a sort of “ghetto” to herd some of the more traditional-leaning posters into and away from the Liturgy and Sacraments Forum.

Liturgy and Sacraments was absolutely filled with people with a tremendous love for the Mass - OF and EF. And alot of the discussions had to do with ending Liturgical abuses. That is similar to how L&S is today except nowadays there are lots of people there who try to convince everyone that Liturgical abuses are no big deal and the only thing that matters is that the Mass is valid - which is the polar opposite of the position of the Catholic Church on the matter. But, that is another topic.

Almost overnight (although thankfully not for very long) it seemed as though the only thing permitted to be discussed in L&S was Praise and Worship music and defending Liturgical abuses.

If someone were to post something to the effect of “I am so excited! My parish chanted the Our Father in Latin and we will have some Gregorian Chant at one Mass each week!” the thread would be closed or moved to Traditional Catholicism Forum. It happened many, many times. And most of the time it had nothing to do with the TLM but with the NO celebrated the way the pope and the 2nd Vatican Council were calling for.

There was at least the perception that those who preferred the TLM or reverent NO Masses were being persecuted on CAF.

Again, this did not last very long at all. But it certainly did happen. Probably because the TC Forum was set up with no clear idea as to what was supposed to be discussed there.

When you are not even allowed to discuss Latin - the liturgical language of the Roman Catholic Church - or Gregorian Chant - which is supposed to be given “pride of place” in the Mass according to Vatican II - in the Forum dedicated to Liturgy and Sacraments I can easily see where that would put people on the defensive.

I think that is why discussions in TC sometimes seem to get a little more heated than the other forums. For a time most of the people posting here had been effectively kicked out of Liturgy and Sacraments for wanting to discuss things that the Catholic Church says should be in the Mass (including the Ordinary Form of the Mass) - Gregorian chant and Latin. And effectively they were being told by CAF that these things obviously had nothing to do with Catholic Liturgy. They were put on the defensive by CAF itself.

Again, I am not saying that there was some sort of conspiracy by the moderators or anything like that. But, some very, very poor decisions by some did lead to the perception that this was happening. And things are much different today.

James

 

[Joe_5859]

So what would you prefer that we do? Pretend that there aren’t disagreements in the Church? Or should we instead try to learn something together by discussing them?

A Protestant here who’s not seeking probably isn’t going to find anything. Someone who comes here with it on their hearts to find something wrong with the Church won’t have a hard time of it regardless of whether or not we keep our opinions to themselves. If we just pretended to be in agreement on everything we’d be accused (with some justification, in fact) of simply being robots. Either way they will find something wrong with Catholics. And anywho, I do believe I’ve read in one of St. Paul’s writings that we are supposed to hold our Bishops accountable.

Those who ARE seeking, on the other hand, aren’t necessarily put off by the debate in this forum, as evidenced by the two converts who just posted.

If you continue down this line of thought, friend, you’ll eventually just have to ban debate between Catholics, because it’s bad PR and we couldn’t have the world thinking that we aren’t one big happy family. Families, even good families, bicker. And good family members certainly try to do what’s best for the family as a whole, even though they may disagree on what that is.

:twocents:

You make some excellent points and I agree with most all of what you say. I do not mean to say that we cannot discuss things or ever disagree. I’m not advocating that we sweep differences under the rug and pretend we all agree on everything. You are correct that some people will criticize us regardless of whether we agree or disargee. Whatever we do, someone can find some way to make it work to their preconceived opinions about the Church. Even if we do everything right, there will always be someone who will take it the wrong way.

The point I was trying to make is simply that we need to take care in how we discuss things. And I believe that there are certain topics that are simply inappropriately dealt with in this venue (such as “holding our bishops accountable”). It’s not as though we cannot address such issues at all, but to deal with them here can be quite damaging and produces no fruit. There are better places to deal with such concerns.

I simply cannot see the benefit to be gained from someone coming here to vent about their “horrible bishop” on these forums. Will posting such things move the bishop to change? No. Because the bishop will probably never even know that he is being talked about. All it serves to do is to inflame our sense of indignity at a particular person based on one-side of the story. That’s something I know I could do without.

 

[Walking_Home]

What is even more interesting, is to read the posts from those who get all disturbed when the Pope does or says anything that doesn’t take us back to 1958.

Distribute Communion on the tongue to someone on a kneeler and the traditionalist camp is dancing in the streets, Add Luminous Mysteries to the rosary, and all heck breaks loose. “How dare he tamper with tradition?”…or… “How dare he tamper with the Stations of the Cross?” Oops, he’s the Pope.

Some seem to forget, that every “tradition” that they hold so dear was something “new” at some point in Church history.

How ironic, that those traditionalists who bandy about the term “Cafeteria Catholic” are often the worst offenders of all.

---

I believe it would benefit this forum to exclude posters when it becomes obvious that they are here to muddy the waters/stir the pot/etc. via statements like – traditionalists being dissenters and cafeteria Catholics, etc.

 

[JReducation]

I believe that the most difficult hurdle in the TC forum is the bashing that goes back and forth across tha aisle.

I personally enjoy a good conversation about any topic, whether it be the liturgy or the saints. I agree with everyone who has said that being thinkers is not a bad thing. God forbid that we be so passive as to never reflect on anything or share an opinion.

When you attack the person with the opinion, instead of disagreeing and stating why you disagree, then you have taken the dialogue to another level that does not belong in a public setting.

The same can be said about authorities in the Church. There are some decisions and policies in the Church where people have legitimate questions or concerns. When you go to the level of calling this pope a heretic or that bishop a heretic and you start by naming them, then you have crossed a moral line.

1. Everyone is entitled to their good name and the opportunity to defend it. There is not opportunity to defend one’s good name if the bishop’s name is on CAF and the bishop has no idea.
2. We cannot be the cause of scandal. If my parish priest is having an affair with the secretary (YUK), it is not for me to tell the entire parish. My duty is to inform his superior what I know and let it be taken care of at that level.

I saw someone call into question the beatification of John XXIII and Teresa of Calcutta and then state tha they were relativists and that John XXIII was the cause of all the crisis in the Church. The poster questioned John Paul’s motives for beatifying either one of these people. I though to myself, “This guy is a bowling ball. He’s going for the perfect strike. Take everyone down at the same time.”

Those are unnecessary comments. They add nothing to our understanding of the faith. They are just gratuitous.

I have a policy at our ministry that seems to work quite well. “Think it, but don’t say it, unless it’s going to do some good.”

It’s not the discussions and the difference of opinions that is stunning on the TC forum, it’s the insults, the generalizations and the gratuitous statements that add nothing to the faith of the individual. They only make people angry, hurt people’s feelings, and derail a conversation.

These things need to be corrected.

Those are my two cents.

Fraternally,

JR

Pray for me.