Trade Unions

[davidmlamb]

The right for Unions to exist as a bulwark against the exploitation of workers is not only desirable but essential. The church supports the existence of unions. The church does not force you to agree with the position that Unions take. Labour and Capital both have faults but Unions make it easier to resist the more savage attacks made on workers by corporations. Defrauding a worker of just remuneration is an extremely serious sin after all

And it is rampant in our society. A just wage and secure employment is the lagitamate fruits of work. I fully support trade unions to the extent they should be mandatory in larger corporations. Trade Unions allow the workers to collectively bargain for wages and benifits as well as working conditions under a contract. To undermine this and give the corporate world all the power to set wages, benefits, and working conditions is unjust. It is the root cause of people who receive public assistance. Walmart is a classic example.

Peace,

David

 

[adf417]

In an economy in which corporate profit margins just hit an all-time high, and companies are making more per dollar of sales than they ever have before, while wages as a percent of the economy are at an all-time low, it seems corporate greed is alive and well.

I agree with these statistic but these are two different statistics that make no sense when using them with each other.

First you are correct, corporate profits are at an all-time high. Then you break demographic lines of statistics and imply these same corporation’s employees’ wages are at an all-time low by using statistics from an overall demographic. This is an incorrect usage of the statistics and what has been the most problematic and deceiving argument being used to defend union talk.

Over half of the workforce (American, not sure of other countries) is small business. The link you give above gives statistics for overall workforce. These statistics include the small business workforce where it is inconceivable for most, if not all, to form unions yet corporate profits continue to be the measuring stick determine wages and benefits for all when it should only be used to measure within its own demographic.

Once this is realized, then it would be conceivable to say “profits over all are at an all-time low while wages overall are also at an all-time low”.

I would think that a steel workers’ union would favor Wal-Mart workers organizing a union for their trade as well.

I also agree with you that the Wal-Mart workers could conceivably form a union for themselves. But given the overall statistics how now does this help the other “over half of the workforce”? How does any union help this demographic? I submit it creates a burden.

Peace!!!

 

[Brendan]

One thing to keep in mind is that the Church most assuredly does support the right of workers to join a union.

But the Church has never claimed that union membership should be a condition of employment either.

A worker, for example, would be well within Church teaching to have the right to negotiate their own contract, for example.

So the position of the Church is closer to what Americans would define as “Right to Work”

 

[tomasocarthaigh]

But from what I understand, you can’t call for an outright ban on the ability of workers to form unions for trade purposes. .

Thou shalt not steal.
Taking a fair wage from a worker is stealing, as is overcharging for property, for loans - its not just the Jews you know in finance - etc., Thats why we need unions.

If Jesus was around, he’d be a leading union organiser!!!

Catholic labor movement used to be a strong force in Europe before WWI. I’m not sure what state it is in now.

As the church is so much behind business here in Europe, its non existant. A new group being started is Proletariat Ireland, and I’m looking for others of similar mindset to join.

 

[tomasocarthaigh]

I don’t really want to be part of my employers ‘family’. I want good pay and conditions. It has to be remembered that if sick pay or holiday pay or maternity pay did not exist we would still have to fight for it. Taking the eye off the ball for a second when dealing with capitalists whose raison d’être is to make money is a mistake. That is why unions are necessary

Agreed 100%

Fair wage is the first plank of good industrial relations. They can take the profits and the losses, all workers want is a fair wage.

How can folk afford to pay for houses on a poor wage? Mortgages default, banks are shy money, bailed by the state… who raise taxes on the workers - and businesses who pay their way - who have less resources. Workers spend less, less sales, less VAT, less profits, less income tax, more layoffs, more redundancy, more mortgage defaults… and the cycle continues.

Strong unions help resist that, though in Ireland they fight for the richer workers and tell the rest of us to be happy with the little we got.

 

[adf417]

Strong unions help resist that, though in Ireland they fight for the richer workers and tell the rest of us to be happy with the little we got.

This is exactly what I have been trying to say. Furthermore think about the peeps that are not in a union and cannot form a union…

 

[markomalley]

Hi all,

I recently started another thread about dissenting from Church teaching, and if dissent is allowed or not. That thread can be found here: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=766363

The teaching that makes me uncomfortable is the Church’s teaching on trade unions. Being a conservative, Catholic, American, trade unions make me uncomfortable because of their highly partisan nature here in the United States. Yet, the Church teaches that they are to be allowed and, to a point, encouraged. I don’t like trade unions; indeed, I would oppose them in the public square. But if the Church says I must accept them, I will obey.

My question: am I allowed to dissent and disagree with this teaching or must I obey the Church? If I am to obey, how can I go about doing that in the States where trade unions are politically opposite of me in numerous ways?

Thanks for the help.

Relevant citations on trade unions:
Compendium of the Social Doctrine of the Church paragraphs 287, 301-305.
Catechism 2430

Pope Pius X: Singulari Quadam (On Labor Organizations) (1912):4. Now, concerning workingmen’s associations, even though their purpose is to obtain earthly advantages for their members, nonetheless those associations are to be most approved and considered as most useful for the genuine and permanent advantage of their members which are established chiefly on the foundation of the Catholic religion and openly follow the directives of the Church. We have repeated this declaration on several previous occasions in answer to question from various countries. Consequently, such so-called confessional Catholic associations must certainly be established and promoted in every way in Catholic regions as well as in all other districts where it can be presumed that they can sufficiently assist the various needs of their members. However, when there is a question about associations which directly or indirectly touch upon the sphere of religion and morality, it would not be permitted to foster and spread mixed organizations, that is, associations composed of Catholics and non-Catholics, in the areas just mentioned. **Over and above other matters, in such organizations there are or certainly can be for our people serious dangers to the integrity of their faith and the due obedience to the commandments and precepts of the Catholic Church. **Venerable Brethren, you yourselves have also openly called attention to this question in several of your answers which We have read.

…

1. Furthermore, **if Catholics are to be permitted to join the trade unions, these associations must avoid everything that is not in accord, either in principle or practice, with the teachings and commandments of the Church or the proper ecclesiastical authorities. Similarly, everything is to be avoided in their literature or public utterances or actions which in the above view would incur censure. **

**The Bishops, therefore, should consider it their sacred duty to observe carefully the conduct of all these associations and to watch diligently that the Catholic members do not suffer any harm as a result of their participation. The Catholic members themselves, however, should never permit the unions, whether for the sake of material interests of their members or the union cause as such, to proclaim or support teachings or to engage in activities which would conflict in any way with the directives proclaimed by the supreme teaching authority of the Church, especially those mentioned above. Therefore, as often as problems arise concerning matters of justice or charity, the Bishops should take the greatest care to see that the faithful do not overlook Catholic moral teaching and do not depart from it even a finger’s breadth. **
(Read the whole thing…it’s very worthwhile)

Sadly, you don’t hear this bit of the Magisterium spoken much in the halls of the social justice departments of most ecclesial organizations. And, perhaps, to reinforce this, it would be beneficial for the lay staffers operating those departments to review Leo XIII’s: Testem Benevolentiae Nostrae while they’re at it.

 

[imboden]

Union membership is mandatory where I work.

I love the protections offered, I hate the politics of the union. The national governing body tells us who we “should” vote for. It’s always liberal.

Now I’m not a liberal or a conservative.

Liberals tend to take care of the poor with taxes and services, I love that. Conservatives stand up for religion and values, anti-abortion, and I love that.

So this year for the first time when my union told me to vote, I abstained. I could not with a good feeling in my heart vote either way.

 

[adf417]

Now I’m not a liberal or a conservative.

Liberals tend to take care of the poor with taxes and services, I love that. Conservatives stand up for religion and values, anti-abortion, and I love that.

This bolded statement is a bit misleading to me. I believe it would be more correct to say, “liberals tend to be for programs that are supposed to take care of the poor”.

Here is an interesting article that better defends this statement- nytimes.com/2008/12/21/opinion/21kristof.html?hp&_r=0

I also believe that if social programs worked liked they were originally conceived and campaigned as, as opposed to lining the pockets of the vary politicians or cronies that campaigned and voted on them, then the liberal mindset of “voting for social programs so individuals don’t need to worry about personal benevolence” could be a more formidable concept.

BTW I think much more liberal today than I used to.

Peace be with you!!!

 

[tomasocarthaigh]

Jim Larkin, the Irish trade union leader must be turning in his grave at the collaboration of the Irish unions with the state to rob the normal worker, while defending the rights of the richer ones.

The Castle Catholics are alive, well and still in power!!!

But, as I pointed out in my poem Shoulder High Lets Carry Him, we vote them in, so we can only blame ourselves.

 

[Genesis315]

It’s part of human nature and a good thing to form associations and societies (cf. Ecclesiastes 4:9-12), and therefore this cannot be forbidden. This is the fundamental reason why the Church has supported unions.

However, unions, like all other societies and individuals, are bound to act with true justice and morality, and to advance, rather than harm, the common good. The state may intervene in their actions to protect the common good.

Also, to the OP: seek to be a Catholic first, and then pick and choose between the positions of the various political parties based on that. Too many people judge the faith based on their particular political party’s platform, rather than the other way around.

 

[jimcav]

It’s easy in this day and age to forget just how much the union movement has given all worker’s in this country and how they completely changed the landscape of America by creating the “middle class”. It’s also easy to forget how much pain the American worker went through to earn these benefits, but IMHO, at least half, if not more, of these hard earned benefits would be lost if unions went away. It wouldn’t take much for corporate America to go back to those bad old times. I believe that the Catholic Church would approve of this list too.

And for those that don’t like the unions political bend, remember that if conservatives and their corporate partners like Wal-Mart didn’t declare all-out war on unions, unions might very well support some of the conservative candidates and issues. Union people in general are a conservative bunch and very patriotic…

36 Reasons Why You Should Thank a Union

Weekends
All Breaks at Work, including your Lunch Breaks
Paid Vacation
FMLA
Sick Leave
Social Security
Minimum Wage
Civil Rights Act/Title VII (Prohibits Employer Discrimination)
8-Hour Work Day
Overtime Pay
Child Labor Laws
Occupational Safety & Health Act (OSHA)
40 Hour Work Week
Worker’s Compensation (Worker’s Comp)
Unemployment Insurance
Pensions
Workplace Safety Standards and Regulations
Employer Health Care Insurance
Collective Bargaining Rights for Employees
Wrongful Termination Laws
Age Discrimination in Employment Act of 1967
Whistleblower Protection Laws
Employee Polygraph Protect Act (Prohibits Employer from using a lie detector test on an employee)
Veteran’s Employment and Training Services (VETS)
Compensation increases and Evaluations (Raises)
Sexual Harassment Laws
Americans With Disabilities Act (ADA)
Holiday Pay
Employer Dental, Life, and Vision Insurance
Privacy Rights
Pregnancy and Parental Leave
Military Leave
The Right to Strike
Public Education for Children
Equal Pay Acts of 1963 & 2011 (Requires employers pay men and women equally for the same amount of work)
Laws Ending Sweatshops in the United States

 

[adf417]

It’s easy in this day and age to forget just how much the union movement has given all worker’s in this country and how they completely changed the landscape of America by creating the “middle class”. It’s also easy to forget how much pain the American worker went through to earn these benefits, but IMHO, at least half, if not more, of these hard earned benefits would be lost if unions went away. It wouldn’t take much for corporate America to go back to those bad old times. I believe that the Catholic Church would approve of this list too.

And for those that don’t like the unions political bend, remember that if conservatives and their corporate partners like Wal-Mart didn’t declare all-out war on unions, unions might very well support some of the conservative candidates and issues. Union people in general are a conservative bunch and very patriotic…

Greetings Jim,

I can see your point on all of this and must agree that unions bring good to the people they represent. But the question still remains – how does any of this help the poor? How do any of these 36 reasons help those, more than half of the work force, who do not and cannot belong to unions?

Peace brother!!!

 

[jimcav]

Greetings Jim,

I can see your point on all of this and must agree that unions bring good to the people they represent. But the question still remains – how does any of this help the poor? How do any of these 36 reasons help those, more than half of the work force, who do not and cannot belong to unions?

Peace brother!!!

Well ,the working man in America was dirt poor before unions. Workers were looked down upon and were treated much the way Chinese workers are being treated today. Unions single handedly created what we now take for granted in this country- the middle class. There was no such thing before, just poor and abused workers that lived in abject poverty. So it can be said that even though many workers are non-union today, they still have received the benefits from the union struggle. Workers, whether union or non-union, now receive decent wages and benefits and keep us from falling into poverty.

I have no doubt however, that given the chance, corporate America would go back to those evil ways if it could. The fact that we cannot secure our borders, even though our army can secure borders half-way-around-the-world, is because corporate America wants them open as a way around unions and giving American workers decent wages and benefits.

And yes, I know there are abuses in unions, as anything with power corrupts, but it cannot come close to the scandulous and ruinous corruption in corporate America…

Peace to you too!

 

[adf417]

So it can be said that even though many workers are non-union today, they still have received the benefits from the union struggle. Workers, whether union or non-union, now receive decent wages and benefits and keep us from falling into poverty.

Hi Jim,

I have heard this argument many times and on the surface it makes sense. But if you extrapolate it out it becomes counterintuitive.

The union worker draws better pay and benefits. This means the more skilled worker will land the union job leaving the less skilled worker to the non-unionable industry, insuring this same worker a bit higher wage as you have admitted and I agree. Now, in the manufacturing sector, the non-union, small shop (remember this makes up over half of this workforce) is forced to raise its rates to compete and do this with the lesser skilled employees. Not a problem right? After all, everything is relative. But when you weigh in all factors such as, guaranteed contracts, government backed loans and government subsidies, all which are never offered to any of these small business, these small businesses cannot survive. It is being proven every day.

I have seen too many small businesses collapse due to this scenario leaving both employee and employer unemployed. Not to mention less and less incentives for small business, in this sector, to develop. Ultimately either stranding the lesser skilled worker, and many ex-employers without a job or forcing them into a lower skilled industry.

Please don’t get me wrong, I see the good in unions as you have described. But as I stated earlier, I think the Church should reevaluate what Rerum Novarum has done for us over the past 100 years with new statistics and what we, as Godly people, can take from it without relying so much on corporate negotiations or government mandates. And after evaluating, make a stand that would separate itself from all greed no matter what side it comes from.

Peace again!!!

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

Hi all,

I recently started another thread about dissenting from Church teaching, and if dissent is allowed or not. That thread can be found here: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=766363

The teaching that makes me uncomfortable is the Church’s teaching on trade unions. Being a conservative, Catholic, American, trade unions make me uncomfortable because of their highly partisan nature here in the United States. Yet, the Church teaches that they are to be allowed and, to a point, encouraged. I don’t like trade unions; indeed, I would oppose them in the public square. But if the Church says I must accept them, I will obey.

My question: am I allowed to dissent and disagree with this teaching or must I obey the Church? If I am to obey, how can I go about doing that in the States where trade unions are politically opposite of me in numerous ways?

Thanks for the help.

Relevant citations on trade unions:
Compendium of the Social Doctrine of the Church paragraphs 287, 301-305.
Catechism 2430

Unions are supported to a degree which does not mean you must support all unions.