Tradition and the message of Pope Francis

[AndyP2010]

In the earliest days of the Church, as we read about in the Book of Acts, the focus was on preaching the Gospel and the Breaking of the Bread (the Mass). This is the oldest Tradition of the Church. Our Tradition tells us the by the end of the Apostolic age the Faith had been spread as far as east as India and west to Spain. Today we find ourselves living in a post Christian world. A time of crisis of faith where many church going Catholic seem to not even know the basics or care to much about them. Author Sherry Weddell has written “Forming Intentional Disciples: The Path to Knowing and Following Jesus” Here is a review of here book by a Catholic priest.

One of the most important contributions of Forming Intentional Disciples is Weddell’s articulation of what she calls the “thresholds of conversion.”

The idea is simple. “Catechesis” in the Church is meant for those who are already deeply committed to Christ as disciples; catechesis is meant to build on a foundation that already exists. But non-believers, or those who have become estranged from the faith, or those who only understand Jesus notionally (but not personally) are almost certainly not ready to be “catechized.” That’s why, as Weddell points out, the problem we are facing in the Church today—though often chalked up to “poor catechesis” or “poor adult faith formation”—is way beyond resolution through “better” catechesis.

To be genuinely catechized (nourished in an ever deeper understanding of the faith) presupposes that one is already a disciple of Jesus in mind and heart. What Weddell and her collaborators have discovered and demonstrated over the past decade is that many of our baptized Catholics never made it to that threshold; in fact they are quite a few thresholds away from getting there. Consequently, attempts to “catechize” them are often futile. They must be met where they are and gently coaxed and accompanied to discipleship.

To get there, most people need to cross at least four other thresholds: first they need to trust—to trust those in whom they see modeled something which they themselves lack: a robust and joyful living of a personal relationship with Jesus. Having crossed this threshold, they would then ideally become imbibed with curiosity about Jesus. That curiosity would then be nourished and grow to genuine openness to learning more about Jesus, which would then move them to seek Jesus actively; then—and only then—they would be in a position to take the final step to following Jesus as an “intentional disciple” in the midst of his Church.

Into this scene comes Pope Francis, preaching the simple Gospel message which some have criticized as lacking in catechesis in certain areas. This misses the point of what Mrs Waddell says is true. To many people not to mention Catholics just aren’t ready. As the pope says in the America interview.

"I say this also thinking about the preaching and content of our preaching. A beautiful homily, a genuine sermon must begin with the first proclamation, with the proclamation of salvation. There is nothing more solid, deep and sure than this proclamation. Then you have to do catechesis. Then you can draw even a moral consequence. But the proclamation of the saving love of God comes before moral and religious imperatives. Today sometimes it seems that the opposite order is prevailing. The homily is the touchstone to measure the pastor’s proximity and ability to meet his people, because those who preach must recognize the heart of their community and must be able to see where the desire for God is lively and ardent. The message of the Gospel, therefore, is not to be reduced to some aspects that, although relevant, on their own do not show the heart of the message of Jesus Christ.”

Emphasis added:

I think that the Pope is calling us back to our ancient Traditions of preaching the Gospel and Breaking of the Bread. This is appropriate because the world we increasingly find ourselves, in resembles the pagan world of the early church.

 

[McCall1981]

In the earliest days of the Church, as we read about in the Book of Acts, the focus was on preaching the Gospel and the Breaking of the Bread (the Mass). This is the oldest Tradition of the Church. Our Tradition tells us the by the end of the Apostolic age the Faith had been spread as far as east as India and west to Spain. Today we find ourselves living in a post Christian world. A time of crisis of faith where many church going Catholic seem to not even know the basics or care to much about them. Author Sherry Weddell has written “Forming Intentional Disciples: The Path to Knowing and Following Jesus” Here is a review of here book by a Catholic priest.

Into this scene comes Pope Francis, preaching the simple Gospel message which some have criticized as lacking in catechesis in certain areas. This misses the point of what Mrs Waddell says is true. To many people not to mention Catholics just aren’t ready. As the pope says in the America interview.

Emphasis added:

I think that the Pope is calling us back to our ancient Traditions of preaching the Gospel and Breaking of the Bread. This is appropriate because the world we increasingly find ourselves, in resembles the pagan world of the early church.

Interesting, thanks for posting. I could see this being true, and I could also see this being what Francis has in mind. IMO, the only issue is that I don’t think the outside world (ie. the world outside the Church) would see it this way, and perception matters.

The bolded is definitely true.

 

[CB_Catholic]

Interesting, thanks for posting. I could see this being true, and I could also see this being what Francis has in mind. IMO, the only issue is that I don’t think the outside world (ie. the world outside the Church) would see it this way, and perception matters.

The bolded is definitely true.

Remember what the perception of the Jews was of Jesus. Most totally misunderstood Him.
Yet it all was part of God’s plan…why do you think it will be any different with the Pope?

The World and the Church will never be reconciled, and the World will never understand the Church, no matter who is in leadership – that is until the Second Coming, when Christ restores all things.

We need to avoid the temptation to make the Pope fit our own image of what he should be, and allow him to be the person God intends him to be. Peace will come to our hearts when we accept that God is in charge and always works things out for the good of those who TRUST Him. That is a Biblical promise. The problem is, we want to see results now, but that may not occur in our lifetime or even many lifetimes. But God is not bound by time or our ideas, and sees the whole picture perfectly, which we are incapable of doing.

My advice is to quit fighting and doubting–a sign that trust is lacking–and give all your doubts to the Lord and ask the Holy Spirit to increase your faith. This can be done, it is no pipe dream, but you must want it and surrender all of what you are hanging on to to the Lord.

Then go about your business–which is spreading the Good News.

And, BTW, I include myself in these admonitions, as I often want to be in control.

 

[HelenRose]

Remember what the perception of the Jews was of Jesus. Most totally misunderstood Him.
Yet it all was part of God’s plan…why do you think it will be any different with the Pope?

The World and the Church will never be reconciled, and the World will never understand the Church, no matter who is in leadership – that is until the Second Coming, when Christ restores all things.

We need to avoid the temptation to make the Pope fit our own image of what he should be, and allow him to be the person God intends him to be. Peace will come to our hearts when we accept that God is in charge and always works things out for the good of those who TRUST Him. That is a Biblical promise. The problem is, we want to see results now, but that may not occur in our lifetime or even many lifetimes. But God is not bound by time or our ideas, and sees the whole picture perfectly, which we are incapable of doing.

My advice is to quit fighting and doubting–a sign that trust is lacking–and give all your doubts to the Lord and ask the Holy Spirit to increase your faith. This can be done, it is no pipe dream, but you must want it and surrender all of what you are hanging on to to the Lord.

Then go about your business–which is spreading the Good News.

And, BTW, I include myself in these admonitions, as I often want to be in control.

Me to.

 

[Jaberwocky]

In the earliest days of the Church, as we read about in the Book of Acts, the focus was on preaching the Gospel and the Breaking of the Bread (the Mass). This is the oldest Tradition of the Church. Our Tradition tells us the by the end of the Apostolic age the Faith had been spread as far as east as India and west to Spain. Today we find ourselves living in a post Christian world. A time of crisis of faith where many church going Catholic seem to not even know the basics or care to much about them. Author Sherry Weddell has written “Forming Intentional Disciples: The Path to Knowing and Following Jesus” Here is a review of here book by a Catholic priest.

Into this scene comes Pope Francis, preaching the simple Gospel message which some have criticized as lacking in catechesis in certain areas. This misses the point of what Mrs Waddell says is true. To many people not to mention Catholics just aren’t ready. As the pope says in the America interview.

Emphasis added:

I think that the Pope is calling us back to our ancient Traditions of preaching the Gospel and Breaking of the Bread. This is appropriate because the world we increasingly find ourselves, in resembles the pagan world of the early church.

The biggest problem with your post is that you assume that there was no Catechesis in the early Church. => Not true. Catechesis was an important part of the early Church and Christian initiation. How exactly did you think the Apostles got the faithful to reject the Pagan ways? Also, have you read the letters by St. Paul, St. Peter, St. John that contain ample Catechesis? Even the written gospels are Catechesis. One of the reasons for the release of the CCC by Bl. John Paul II was after making this very observation of the ancient traditions.

Another issue here is that you make it sound as if Pope Francis is against Catechesis. That is also not true. He has clearly said the Catechesis is important in homilies and even talked about speaking about a moral consequence in the homily.

 

[janeway529]

In the earliest days of the Church, as we read about in the Book of Acts, the focus was on preaching the Gospel and the Breaking of the Bread (the Mass). This is the oldest Tradition of the Church. Our Tradition tells us the by the end of the Apostolic age the Faith had been spread as far as east as India and west to Spain. Today we find ourselves living in a post Christian world. A time of crisis of faith where many church going Catholic seem to not even know the basics or care to much about them. Author Sherry Weddell has written “Forming Intentional Disciples: The Path to Knowing and Following Jesus” Here is a review of here book by a Catholic priest.

Into this scene comes Pope Francis, preaching the simple Gospel message which some have criticized as lacking in catechesis in certain areas. This misses the point of what Mrs Waddell says is true. To many people not to mention Catholics just aren’t ready. As the pope says in the America interview.

Emphasis added:
**
I think that the Pope is calling us back to our ancient Traditions of preaching the Gospel and Breaking of the Bread. This is appropriate because the world we increasingly find ourselves, in resembles the pagan world of the early church.**

This is one of the reasons why the Second Vatican Council proved to be so timely. As Pope Francis said in the Jesuit Magazine interview:

“Vatican II was a re-reading of the Gospel in light of contemporary culture,” says the pope. “Vatican II produced a renewal movement that simply comes from the same Gospel. Its fruits are enormous. Just recall the liturgy. The work of liturgical reform has been a service to the people as a re-reading of the Gospel from a concrete historical situation. Yes, there are hermeneutics of continuity and discontinuity, but one thing is clear: the dynamic of reading the Gospel, actualizing its message for today—which was typical of Vatican II—is absolutely irreversible."

 

[AndyP2010]

The biggest problem with your post is that you assume that there was no Catechesis in the early Church. => Not true. Catechesis was an important part of the early Church and Christian initiation. How exactly did you think the Apostles got the faithful to reject the Pagan ways? Also, have you read the letters by St. Paul, St. Peter, St. John that contain ample Catechesis? Even the written gospels are Catechesis. One of the reasons for the release of the CCC by Bl. John Paul II was after making this very observation of the ancient traditions.

Another issue here is that you make it sound as if Pope Francis is against Catechesis. That is also not true. He has clearly said the Catechesis is important in homilies and even talked about speaking about a moral consequence in the homily.

Did you read the whole post, even the quotes? The point isn’t about not doing Catechesis the point is that Catechesis should follow the proclamation of the good news. I think that is very clear in the two quote that I had. In fact in the one where I am quoting the Pope I purposely bolded the part where he talks about Catechesis following the Gospel.

 

[johnnyc176]

Did you read the whole post, even the quotes? The point isn’t about not doing Catechesis the point is that Catechesis should follow the proclamation of the good news. I think that is very clear in the two quote that I had. In fact in the one where I am quoting the Pope I purposely bolded the part where he talks about Catechesis following the Gospel.

But isn’t Jesus and His Church one and the same? Jesus’s message includes the formation of His Church and the saving Grace of the sacraments, etc. That’s in the Gospel, no?

 

[janeway529]

But isn’t Jesus and His Church one and the same? Jesus’s message includes the formation of His Church and the saving Grace of the sacraments, etc. That’s in the Gospel, no?

Yes, it’s true that Jesus and His Church are one, but that totally misses the point the OP is trying to make. Take the example of Marcion. He proposed to throw out the Old Testament because he did not know how to read the Old Testament in light of the Gospel. Supposedly, he was a bishop. [Insert Living Tradition here]

Catechesis is faith seeking expression in practice and in teaching, which presupposes faith. But as we know, even Catholics can be raised in family with proper catechesis, but not enough faith or spirituality. How many of us know Catholics who go through the motions of being catholic, like going to Mass on Sundays, but don’t gather together and pray as a family? I have seen the other end of the spectrum too – people too attached to popular piety and private devotions, such as endless novenas to Our Lady of Perpetual Help, but fail to go to Mass on Sunday, preferring to go on Wednesday, when the Mass is combined with the novena. Case in point, of why education in the faith is so important.

 

[OraLabora]

I have seen the other end of the spectrum too – people too attached to popular piety and private devotions, such as endless novenas to Our Lady of Perpetual Help, but fail to go to Mass on Sunday, preferring to go on Wednesday, when the Mass is combined with the novena. Case in point, of why education in the faith is so important.

What I have seen is people going through the motions of popular piety and going to Sunday Mass, but who have not really gone through a life-changing transformation.

I know because I was one.

True inner transformation is what, IMHO, defines a true Catholic. Not popular piety, not scrupulous observation of the rules, not regular Mass attendance, not even thorough catechesis. All are part of being Catholic, but aren’t what defines one as a true Catholic.

It boils down to loving God with all your heart, and loving one another as God loved us.

If one’s transformation leads only to pious devotions and perfect knowledge of all the dogmas and doctrines, but does not lead one to agape, then as St. Paul so nicely puts it:

13 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

1 Cor. 13 1-3

 

[janeway529]

What I have seen is people going through the motions of popular piety and going to Sunday Mass, but who have not really gone through a life-changing transformation.

I know because I was one.

True inner transformation is what, IMHO, defines a true Catholic. Not popular piety, not scrupulous observation of the rules, not regular Mass attendance, not even thorough catechesis. All are part of being Catholic, but aren’t what defines one as a true Catholic.

It boils down to loving God with all your heart, and loving one another as God loved us.

If one’s transformation leads only to pious devotions and perfect knowledge of all the dogmas and doctrines, but does not lead one to agape, then as St. Paul so nicely puts it:

1 Cor. 13 1-3

Those people I cited have undergone transformation, but lack the education and proper understanding of the full expression of being Catholic, which is found in the Sacraments, especially in the Eucharist, not only in popular piety and private devotions. This zealousness can have a negative affect as well, which can lead to superstition and a wrong understanding as to why we pray (only asking for something). As it’s been said, “The Mass is the highest form of prayer.”

 

[OraLabora]

Those people I cited have undergone transformation, but lack the education and proper understanding of the full expression of being Catholic, which is found in the Sacraments, especially in the Eucharist, not only in popular piety and private devotions. This zealousness can have a negative affect as well, which can lead to superstition and a wrong understanding as to why we pray (only asking for something). As it’s been said, “The Mass is the highest form of prayer.”

My experience is that zealousness is often associated with incomplete deep inner transformation and surrender to God’s grace. But you’re right, zealousness can lead to superstition. Even worse though, it can lead to superficial masking of our deepest wounds (those that lead us to sin), and a belief that we can overcome the outer manifestation of our wounds (i.e. the sin that others see) through our own power (i.e. if we “pray enough” we will avoid sin).

The problem of course is that doesn’t get at the root of the problem and in fact makes the problem come out in other ways that can be equally hurtful to those around us. Getting to the root of the problem only comes after a dark night of the soul and learning to surrender to God’s grace, and put Him in charge of our lives rather than believing we can control everything; it often happens after a major meltdown leading us to fall very hard back into the sin that we thought we “overcame” through prayer. I speak from personal experience here.

Those deep inner wounds of course have their source in original sin, but vary from people to people depending on hour our experiences were coloured and often result from our parents transmitting theirs to us, something scripture teaches us about. In addition to leading us to sin they can also lead us into addiction, and attempts to overcome them by pious devotions only, can often lead to scrupulosity.

Of course you are correct in that we obtain Grace through the sacraments. In particular the Eucharist but of course, equally important is reconciliation. I can’t overstate the benefit of a good regular confessor willing to work with the penitent. He will teach that one must accept one’s self and one’s darkness, and accept God’s Grace as the only way to avoid this darkness taking possession of our souls.

 

[Mike30]

What I have seen is people going through the motions of popular piety and going to Sunday Mass, but** who have not really gone through a life-changing transformation.**I know because I was one.

True inner transformation is what, IMHO, defines a true Catholic. Not popular piety, not scrupulous observation of the rules, not regular Mass attendance, not even thorough catechesis. All are part of being Catholic, but aren’t what defines one as a true Catholic.

It boils down to loving God with all your heart, and loving one another as God loved us.

If one’s transformation leads only to pious devotions and perfect knowledge of all the dogmas and doctrines, but does not lead one to agape, then as St. Paul so nicely puts it:

1 Cor. 13 1-3

That sounds to me suspiciously like the entire pentacostal born again belief and requirement. I do hope that is not what you are inferring in this.

 

[OraLabora]

That sounds to me suspiciously like the entire pentacostal born again belief and requirement. I do hope that is not what you are inferring in this.

No it is clearly not.

It has its roots mostly in the St. John of the Cross and the dark night of the soul, and opening up to God’s grace instead of relying on our own attempt to control things including our own sin. It’s a process of maturation of our faith, that often comes after we fall flat on our faces after attempting to overcome sin through pious devotions alone; this falling on our faces can lead to despair, acedia and a loss of hope. A lot of good monastic sources will cover this especially in the context of the 12 degrees of humility in the Rule of St. Benedict.

It also is completely dependent on reception of the sacraments in particular reconciliation and baptism.

I have no knowledge of pentecostal beliefs other than the Catholic interpretation of what happened at Pentecost.

I do have very personal knowledge, however (as does my long-suffering wife) about trying to overcome sin by my own power, including a false notion of what prayer is, such that it is only a coverup of the symptoms rather than letting the perfect medicine-God’s grace-tackle the illness.

 

[pnewton]

What I have seen is people going through the motions of popular piety and going to Sunday Mass, but who have not really gone through a life-changing transformation.

Those people I cited have undergone transformation, but lack the education and proper understanding of the full expression of being Catholic, which is found in the Sacraments,

What does transformation look like in Sunday Mass?

 

[PRmerger]

What I have seen is people going through the motions of popular piety and going to Sunday Mass, but who have not really gone through a life-changing transformation.

I know because I was one.

Well, you know for yourself whether you are “going through the motions of popular piety and going to Sunday Mass.”

But as for *other *“people” doing this, well, that’s wayyyy above your pay grade, Ora.

 

[TimothyH]

That sounds to me suspiciously like the entire pentacostal born again belief and requirement. I do hope that is not what you are inferring in this.

I’ll add the following in addition to what OraLabora wrote.

Pentacostalism actual borrows some of its beliefs on experiencing God and ongoing conversion from authentic Catholicism.

The oldest religious order in the Western Church is the Order of St. Benedict (OSB). St. Benedict started his first monastery in the year 529 and so the Benedictine spirituality is at least 1450 years old. Benedictines, and their offshoots the Cistercians (Trappists) have always placed a special emphasis on experiencing God, often speaking of such an experience as “tasting” God.

*O taste and see that the LORD is good! (Psalm 32:8)

for you have tasted the kindness of the Lord. (1 Peter 2:3)
*

This is type of experience is described as gnosis, but it is not to be confused with gnosticism. The Greek word gnosis means knowledge, but it is the type of knowledge which only comes through experience, such as when Mary said that she did not know man - she knew about men but did not have first-hand knowledge of a man through experience.

The idea of a personal experience of the goodness of God - tasting God - is part of an authentic Catholic Christian spirituality. Peter felt it, and King David felt it way back in the Old Testament, both evidenced by the quotes above. If Pentecostals didn’t borrow the idea of experiencing God from Catholicism, they certainly didn’t invent it either.

Benedictines and Cistercians also place a very strong emphasis on renewal or ongoing conversion.

Do not be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that you may prove what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect. (Romans 12:2)

In fact, the three vows of a Benedictine or Cistercian monk or nun are obedience, stability and ongoing conversion. Ongoing conversion is part of the monastic tradition within Catholicism from the earliest times. Again, it has to be recognized that the idea of renewal is part of authentic Catholic spirituality which predates Petecostalism by at least 1200 years.

-Tim-

 

[OraLabora]

Well, you know for yourself whether you are “going through the motions of popular piety and going to Sunday Mass.”

But as for *other *“people” doing this, well, that’s wayyyy above your pay grade, Ora.

Umm, “other people” include fellow oblates who have said they experienced the same thing.

As Tim points out the notion of ongoing conversion, and transformation is an integral part of both monastic vows and the oblate’s promise. In fact the formula is exactly the same but one is a vow, the other a promise.

 

[OraLabora]

What does transformation look like in Sunday Mass?

It’s outside the Mass that one sees a person’s transformation. It’s how they interact with family, colleagues, and others.

 

[TimothyH]

Well, you know for yourself whether you are “going through the motions of popular piety and going to Sunday Mass.”

But as for *other *“people” doing this, well, that’s wayyyy above your pay grade, Ora.

You can see conversion in people’s lives, especially those close to you.

They might take on a more reserved nature. Even if it is for a short period of time, they turn inward, more reflective. They may seem quiet and you ask them “is everything OK?” One woman told me how her husband had more contrition for his sins and started going to weekly confession, paying more attention to the sacraments. I am an EMHC. I see people come to receive the Eucharist with tears.

It is a period people go through, one of the degrees of humility which Ora Labora mentioned, one of the steps on Jacob’s ladder, or the first beatitude - blessedness in poverty of spirit. A good pastor or spiritual director will recognize it. Those close to someone going through it will know that something is happening in the interior of their loved one, even if they don’t know what that “something” is.

Monks understand it, and to a certain extent are forced into it. There is nothing to distract them in the silence of the cloister. In that silence and stillness they are forced inward where they have to face themselves and all their weaknesses. There they stand, stripped of everything, naked in front of themselves and in front of God, and there they have to admit their weaknesses to themselves and to God. That is where conversion begins, when we are naked in front of God.

-Tim-