Tradition and tradition

[Randy_Carson]

One would be enough. I’ve never, personally, asked one and I have no survey data. I have heard this from Catholics, that their priest denies it, and I have read that historically this is a problem. I think there are threads active now on CAF concerning the problem of lack of belief in transubstantiation. Are you telling me you have never heard of any priest ever denying this doctrine?

Not so far.

But why would one be enough? Enough for what?

 

[Truthstalker]

No, I don’t. I make the argument that the promises in scripture mean something. Since we KNOW that individuals will always err, the only way the promises in scripture about being led to all truth, the church being a pillar and foundation of truth, are if God supernaturally keeps His Church free from doctrinal error.

Otherwise scripture is a lie.

I don’t think it is that simple. I see things the church is teaching that are not true, that are even in conflict with Catholicism. It is worthless to have something somewhere that is considered infallible if it is not effectively transmitted everywhere. I see the local DRE teaching things such as God is not personal, etc., and getting away with it. This is not “preserving the church from error” but the church teaching error. He stands in the place of a teacher of the church, like it or not.

 

[Truthstalker]

Because scripture promises the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth.

Why is it that Catholics have more faith in scripture and the promises in scripture than Protestants who are supposed to believe in it alone?

Maybe that is it. Faith. My God is big enough to preserve a whole church, not just an individual. My God does not make lie to any part of scripture, including that the Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth.

Or :

Jn 16:13 - guided by Holy Spirit into all truth

Or

Jn 14:26 - Holy Spirit to teach & remind them of everything

In contrast to the idea that God would act without human help to preserve His Word. Which requires more faith, I wonder: that He uses the Church or uses all Christians, and guides us all as He wills?

The Catholic Church has traditionally read much more into the pillar and foundation passage than perhaps it carries. How do you know that interpretation is Tradition and not tradition?

 

[Truthstalker]

But where in scripture does it teach sola scriptura?

You wish to use scripture alone and throw out Tradition, but where in scripture does it tell you to do this?

And whose interpretation of scripture alone will you use? Oneness pentecostals? JW’s?

Scripture doesn’t need to explicitly state Sola Scriptura for SS to be true.

I wish to? Where did I say that is what I wanted? Where did I say I wanted to throw out Tradition? I find it inextricably mixed with the traditions of men, possibly, and therefore unfindable.

I will use the best possible and most reasonable interpretation of Scripture I can find, and in humility recognize I could be wrong, but trust God with the whole thing of leading me to truth rather than putting my faith in people.

 

[Truthstalker]

Who says the Scriptures are incorrect?

I have heard a priest in his homily state that Luke contradicts Acts, and that, for literary purposes, Luke placed the coming of the Holy Spirit upon the disciples at Pentecost. The implication is that the Scriptures are not to be believed.

This is the representative of the Catholic Church teaching the flock of God the word of God? Unbelievable. He destroys his own foundation and credibility and that of the Catholic Church when he pours lies forth from the pulpit.

 

[Truthstalker]

Please don’t type in the middle of a quote as you have done in red below…it makes it difficult to respond to you.

I think Paul says to take it to the Church. But yours or mine?

See above

I think I’m illustrating a double-standard on your part.

Ok, I’ll try to behave about the red.

You think Paul says to take it to the Church? Are you referring to Matthew 18? Not written by Paul. Just “he church” In Greek, the assembly (ekklesia) - a far cry from calling it the institution of the church. If they are both members of one church, well and good. I would like to see us all in one church. But you would seem to drive the thread in the direction of “what is the church” which is off topic.

Sorry, I see no double standard.

 

[Truthstalker]

Not so far.

But why would one be enough? Enough for what?

One illustrates the idea that the church is not perfectly effective in communicating its truth. One illustrates that more than Tradition is being taught, that something of man is being taught, which I am calling tradition on this thread. There is a mixture of tradition and Tradition being taught, and no one can really tell the difference. That being the case, one must instead rely on the Scriptures, not Tradition. Thus, Sola Scriptura.

It seems that every side argument is being attacked by Catholics while ignoring the whole point of this thread. Strange.

 

[metal1633]

I have heard a priest in his homily state that Luke contradicts Acts, and that, for literary purposes, Luke placed the coming of the Holy Spirit upon the disciples at Pentecost. The implication is that the Scriptures are not to be believed.

This is the representative of the Catholic Church teaching the flock of God the word of God? Unbelievable. He destroys his own foundation and credibility and that of the Catholic Church when he pours lies forth from the pulpit.

Well THANK GOD He has preserved the Apostolic Traditions within His Church so that those who have Eyes to See and Ears the Hear can recognize such nonsense when they hear it. After Mass I would have rebuked the Priest. I have done so in the past on more than one occasion. Guess what happened to me when I castigated a Priest for heresy, introducing novelties into the Mass and making a mockery of the Lords Supper…I was made a Catechist. Gregorian Chant was reintroduced and the dancing and Clown Masses came to an end within 6 months.

Thank GOD For Tradition.

 

[mark_a]

The Catholic Church also knows how scripture has “tradition”-ally been interpretted.

People that disown tradition don’t have much of one.
When your Church is 2000 years old, I’m sure it will know how it “tradition”-ally interpretted scripture.

There’s an apologist who compares Protestant churches to a teenager who’s had enough of his parent’s oppression. He tells 'em off, packs his bag, and pitches his tent in the back yard.

Big fat hairy deal.

If you have to protest, at least be creative like Muhammed or Joseph Smith.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Scripture doesn’t need to explicitly state Sola Scriptura for SS to be true.

If sola scriptura is not found in scripture, then is it passed on as a tradition?

Is belief in sola scriptura binding upon the consciences of all believers?

If you must believe is something outside of scripture which tells you that only scripture is binding, is that not self-refuting?

 

[Randy_Carson]

I have heard a priest in his homily state that Luke contradicts Acts, and that, for literary purposes, Luke placed the coming of the Holy Spirit upon the disciples at Pentecost. The implication is that the Scriptures are not to be believed.

This is the representative of the Catholic Church teaching the flock of God the word of God? Unbelievable. He destroys his own foundation and credibility and that of the Catholic Church when he pours lies forth from the pulpit.

That’s one.

Should we begin to document the stupidity that pours forth from many Prostestant pulpits each Sunday?

We can begin with the frequent rants against the Catholic Church and build our list from there…

 

[Randy_Carson]

Ok, I’ll try to behave about the red.

You think Paul says to take it to the Church? Are you referring to Matthew 18? Not written by Paul. Just “he church” In Greek, the assembly (ekklesia) - a far cry from calling it the institution of the church. If they are both members of one church, well and good. I would like to see us all in one church. But you would seem to drive the thread in the direction of “what is the church” which is off topic.

Sorry, yes. I was typing quickly and had too many possible tacks to take in mind…I mixed them obviously. I was quoting Jesus speaking in Matthew.

BTW, thanks for keeping in mind the issue of how you respond to quotes. I don’t mind the red lettering…it’s when you don’t close a quote and type in the middle of someone’s post that disables the ability to respond in turn to you.

 

[MariaG]

I don’t think it is that simple. I see things the church is teaching that are not true, that are even in conflict with Catholicism. It is worthless to have something somewhere that is considered infallible if it is not effectively transmitted everywhere. I see the local DRE teaching things such as God is not personal, etc., and getting away with it. This is not “preserving the church from error” but the church teaching error. He stands in the place of a teacher of the church, like it or not.

Again, you are deciding that since individuals in the Church teach error, that it is not possible for there to be an infallible church.

A local DRE teaching error does not equate to the Doctrine of the Church being in error.

Individuals err. It truly is simple. Either scripture is true. Or it isn’t. Either the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth, or it isn’t.

 

[MariaG]

In contrast to the idea that God would act without human help to preserve His Word. Which requires more faith, I wonder: that He uses the Church or uses all Christians, and guides us all as He wills?

But don’t you see, Catholic believe both are possible. We believe that we CAN be individually led, as well as the Church as a whole. The only difference is that we understand that there is an ultimate truth and the arbitrator of truth is not scripture itself, but the Church as scripture itself tells us.

The Catholic Church has traditionally read much more into the pillar and foundation passage than perhaps it carries. How do you know that interpretation is Tradition and not tradition

Because scripture tells us to look to the Church for settling disputes.

For me, it again comes back to scripture. Either scripture is true or it is a lie.

How can the Church be a pillar and foundation of truth and teach untruth?

 

[MariaG]

Scripture doesn’t need to explicitly state Sola Scriptura for SS to be true.

Yes it does, because scripture SPECIFICALLY tells us that we need to hold fast to tradtions, whether by word or by letter.

Where is the spoken word of God or where does scripture tell us that all the important traditions have been written down now?

I wish to? Where did I say that is what I wanted? Where did I say I wanted to throw out Tradition? I find it inextricably mixed with the traditions of men, possibly, and therefore unfindable.

It is only unfindable if one wishes to not look to the Church for arbitration, as scripture tells us to.

I will use the best possible and most reasonable interpretation of Scripture I can find, and in humility recognize I could be wrong, but trust God with the whole thing of leading me to truth rather than putting my faith in people.

My faith is not in people, it is in Christ. And in His scripture. And in the promises in scripture about His Church.

May God keep you safe.

Maria:wave:

 

[Randy_Carson]

After my prayer and scripture time this morning, I am absolutely convinced that the Holy Spirit has told me something about a passage of scripture.

The only trouble is, it turns out my new insight actually goes against a doctrine of the Catholic Church.

Guess who is wrong?

 

[metal1633]

After my prayer and scripture time this morning, I am absolutely convinced that the Holy Spirit has told me something about a passage of scripture.

The only trouble is, it turns out my new insight actually goes against a doctrine of the Catholic Church.

Guess who is wrong?

Well OBVIOUSLY Christians have all been wrong for the last 2000 years and God has Chosen YOU you to Enlighten the World. What is the Name of your Church and where do I sent my donation? And will I get my own blessed prayer napkin and prosperity pamphlet?

 

[rr1213]

Well OBVIOUSLY Christians have all been wrong for the last 2000 years and God has Chosen YOU you to Enlighten the World. What is the Name of your Church and where do I sent my donation? And will I get my own blessed prayer napkin and prosperity pamphlet?

I think Randy’s point is that if Randy discovers that his personal interpretation varies from Catholic teaching then, as a faithful Catholic, Randy knows that his interpretation MUST be wrong in some fashion and, so, Randy will then endeavor to understand the Catholic teaching and conform his beliefs to it.

 

[metal1633]

I think Randy’s point is that if Randy discovers that his personal interpretation varies from Catholic teaching then, as a faithful Catholic, Randy knows that his interpretation MUST be wrong in some fashion and, so, Randy will then endeavor to understand the Catholic teaching and conform his beliefs to it.

I understood his point. I had my tongue firmly planted in my cheek. You do know what sarcasm is right?

 

[rr1213]

I understood his point. I had my tongue firmly planted in my cheek. You do know what sarcasm is right?

Sure do, but it’s not always obvious in which direction the sarcasm lies when you are posting in an internet forum.