Tradition can be misleading? So can the Bible.

[alanjeddy]

I am curious, ja4, who is this “we” upon whom you are speaking in behalf?

Are you trying to deny the role of the Magesterium by pointing out how badly people need it?

How do the mistakes of individuals invalidate the authority? How did Judas denying Christ invalidate His ministry? I don’t see what one thing has to do with the other.

Excellent point!

 

[CTA1967]

Your right i wish there was such a thing as an infallible Magisterium but we know there is no such thing.

That sounds similar to saying, “i think ill skip english class today i dont think we need apostrophes or capitalization or commas or punctuation therefore my english teacher is wrong i have a right to my own personal interpretation i dont need authority”

 

[D317]

Yes. What i don’t believe is unsound interpretations of the Scriptures. There are so many problems with the interpetations of Scripture by the catholic church.

JA4, as I read this thread I chuckled when you said that your IQ was 12. Now I’m not so sure! Can you find in Scriptures where it said Luther, Calvin, et al should go out and start a chruch? I can’t seem to find “and upon this fallen away monk who broke every vow he ever spoke I build my church” yet that is where you hang your hat.

You can so easily accept a couple of guys turning their collective backs on 1,500 years of THE Church; yet you can not accept the Sacred Tradition the Church passed on for those 1,500 years.

Get it together. You can’t have it both ways.

We all pray for you that you may open your heart and accept the Full Deposit of Faith contained within the Catholic Church and return home.

 

[D317]

The Real Presence doctrine of the catholic church lacks proper scriptural support i.e. the scriptures don’t teach it. __________________

Good gracious JA4, have you read Scared Scriptures lately?

Try the Bread of Life Discourse starting with John 6:22 (or any other starting point you’d like). In John 6:51 Christ states “…I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world.”

Now turn to Matthew 26:26. This event (The Last Supper) occurred after the Jesus spoke the “I am the living bread…” words (follow your biblical time line). He tells the Apostles “Take and eat; this is my body.”

Are you telling us all that the Son of God, our Lord & Savior, some how got it all wrong? That He did not intend to tell everyone that his body is the bread of life and that he didn’t give the Apostles his body, changed really and substantially, hidden under the form of bread when he spoke those words at the LS??

If this is truly what you believe, that Christ got it all wrong, then I have no idea how to reach you.

Also, if you want to understand what the Church teaches on Sacred Tradition, look into the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Part I Article 2 (The Transmission of Divine Revelation). It discusses The Apostolic Tradition.

 

[alanjeddy]

Good gracious JA4, have you read Scared Scriptures lately?

Try the Bread of Life Discourse starting with John 6:22 (or any other starting point you’d like). In John 6:51 Christ states “…I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world.”

Now turn to Matthew 26:26. This event (The Last Supper) occurred after the Jesus spoke the “I am the living bread…” words (follow your biblical time line). He tells the Apostles “Take and eat; this is my body.”

Are you telling us all that the Son of God, our Lord & Savior, some how got it all wrong? That He did not intend to tell everyone that his body is the bread of life and that he didn’t give the Apostles his body, changed really and substantially, hidden under the form of bread when he spoke those words at the LS??

If this is truly what you believe, that Christ got it all wrong, then I have no idea how to reach you.

Also, if you want to understand what the Church teaches on Sacred Tradition, look into the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Part I Article 2 (The Transmission of Divine Revelation). It discusses The Apostolic Tradition.

So many of us have tried to reach justasking4, he has eyes that do not see nor ears that do not hear. I have presched the gospel of John in which Christ talks about His Real presence. Just look at the response of His Jewish audience, they left Him. Christ even asked His own apostles are you going to leave me too? Would that have transpired if Jesus were talking metaphorically? Of course not and Jesus never once said I am talking of my symbolic presence. He meant what He said and truly spoke of His real presence.

 

[justasking4]

alanjeddy;3131860]

I am curious, ja4, who is this “we” upon whom you are speaking in behalf?
All of us. It is impossible for any man or group of men to be infallible.

alanjeddy;3131860]

Originally Posted by guanophore
I am curious, ja4, who is this “we” upon whom you are speaking in behalf?

The we is all of us. It is impossible for any man or group of men to be completely infallible. In the history of the world there has only been One.

guanophore
Are you trying to deny the role of the Magesterium by pointing out how badly people need it?

No. Teachers are needed in the church who teach the truths of Scripture.

guanophore
How do the mistakes of individuals invalidate the authority?

It does not completely invalidate their authority but they do show that this authority is not infallible.

guanophore
How did Judas denying Christ invalidate His ministry?

He didn’t.

guanophore
I don’t see what one thing has to do with the other.

If a person is making the claim that their authority is infallible and cannot err in matters of faith and morals and errors have been made then that authority is not infallible.

Excellent point!

I would agree. Good questions.

[/QUOTE]

 

[justasking4]

D317;3132294]

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
Yes. What i don’t believe is unsound interpretations of the Scriptures. There are so many problems with the interpetations of Scripture by the catholic church.
D317
JA4, as I read this thread I chuckled when you said that your IQ was 12. Now I’m not so sure! Can you find in Scriptures where it said Luther, Calvin, et al should go out and start a chruch? I can’t seem to find “and upon this fallen away monk who broke every vow he ever spoke I build my church” yet that is where you hang your hat.

The mandate to spread the gospel and build churches is modeled after Paul. We see through Acts and his letters his working out the great commission. Notice to that there is never any appeal to Rome or anyone else to do this. Protestants take this model and have applied it for the past 500 years.

 

[alanjeddy]

So many of us have tried to reach justasking4, he has eyes that do not see nor ears that do not hear. I have preached the gospel of John in which Christ talks about His Real presence. Just look at the response of His Jewish audience, they left Him. Christ even asked His own apostles are you going to leave me too? Would that have transpired if Jesus were talking metaphorically? Of course not and Jesus never once said I am talking of my symbolic presence. He meant what He said and truly spoke of His real presence.

 

[alanjeddy]

alanjeddy;3131860:

With Protestants It is impossible for any man or group of men to be infallible.
That’s why there are over 30,000 different Protestant faiths.

 

[Elizabeth2]

The mandate to spread the gospel and build churches is modeled after Paul. We see through Acts and his letters his working out the great commission. Notice to that there is never any appeal to Rome or anyone else to do this. Protestants take this model and have applied it for the past 500 years.

Yes but if you read the Acts of the Apostles you will see that Paul was in communion with the apostles, he wasn’t preaching against them. After his conversion he was visited by Ananias who was in communion with the whole Church and through whom he was given back his sight. (Acts 9:5:19) Jesus said to Paul “Get up now and go into the city, and you will be told what you have to do.” His commission to go out and preach and his filling with the Holy Spirit came from the Church.

Jesus prayed at the last supper “Father, may they be one in us, as you are in me and I am in you, so that the world may believe it was you who sent me.”

The breakup of the the Church at the Reformation was not the will of God. Yes there were faults on both sides and abuses in the Church (Pope John Paul II apologized for the failures of the Church to follow Christ’s teachings), but rebellion was not the answer. And now we should not repeat the sins of the past, but be working towards Church unity as Jesus would have us do.

 

[justasking4]

Part 1

qui est ce;3131595]

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
Were any of the 7 extra books in the catholic Bible written by a prophet? If so, who was it?
qui est ce
Where does it say that OT books have to be written by prophets in order to be considered inspired? Was Esther a prophet? Who wrote 1 & 2 Kings, 1 & 2 Chronicles?

Now you are getting into the finer points on this and would require a lot more dialogue. You may want to study this issue to see how they did it.

qui est ce
The Hebrews divided their sacred writings into three parts: the law, the prophets, and the writings (which were canonized in that order). By the time of Christ, the law—and most likely the prophets—was set in number, but the writings were not yet closed.

In Jesus’ time, the Samaritans and Sadducees accepted the law but rejected the prophets and writings. The Pharisees accepted all three. Other Jews used a Greek version (the Septuagint) that included the seven disputed books, known as the deuterocanonicals. Still other Jews used a version of the canon that is reflected in the Septaguint and included versions of the seven books in question in their original Hebrew or Aramaic.

The porblem with the Septaguint is that we don’t have a copy of it from the 1-2 centuries and don’t know exactly all it contained.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4

How could it be wrong to begin with if as it is claimed that the church cannot err in matters of faith and morals?
How was it possible for the Holy Spirit not to stop these abuses?

qui est ce
It was not the Church who committed these abuses, but individuals, poorly trained in many cases. The Church has always taught that it is wrong to sell indulgences and relics.

It was the church with support of the highest officals i.e. the pope and bishops who did support this. The very ones in whom it is claimed the Holy Spirit leads and makes it impossible to err in matters of faith and morals.

Quote:

Originally Posted by justasking4

This is a contradiction in that if it were true that your church could not err in matters of faith and morals the need for reform would be absurd. The mere fact that a reform was required shows that the claim your church cannot error in matters of faith and morals to be false.

qui est ce
Reform in the sense of how to better educate, reach, spread the good news. How to better address abuses by individuals. We are not referring to Reforming the TEACHINGS, but rather REFINING as our understanding matures.

Do you know what was involved in the catholic counter reformation? What were some of the things that were “reformed”?

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
If your church truly was infallible it would not need to be reformed. Look at the Lord Jesus. He was infallible in everything He said and did and was never in need of reform.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
No doubt the church must teach but it mus teach biblically and the truth and not speculations of men. If she fails to do this then it is not being guided by the Spirit.

qui est ce
The Church is based on the Bible, she, in fact compiled the Bible. She is guided by the Holy Spirit in matters of faith and morals, and not by speculations of men.

I have asked repeatedly for the biblical support for Mary’ assumption, immaculate conception and being prayed to. Anyone who knows the Scriptures well knows this is not taught there.
We also know that purgatory is also specualtion when you look at the details. Things like how long is somewhere there and can a catholic who may be there hear your prayers are just some of the specualtions related to these things. There is much specualtions in Catholic theology and goes far beyond what is written in the Scriptures.

 

[justasking4]

justasking4;3132986:

alanjeddy;3131860:

With Protestants It is impossible for any man or group of men to be infallible.
That’s why there are over 30,000 different Protestant faiths.

It would explain also some of the problems in the Protestant churhes as being different.

 

[justasking4]

That sounds similar to saying, “i think ill skip english class today i dont think we need apostrophes or capitalization or commas or punctuation therefore my english teacher is wrong i have a right to my own personal interpretation i dont need authority”

In your example with the english teacher must the teacher be infallible?

 

[alanjeddy]

Yes but if you read the Acts of the Apostles you will see that Paul was in communion with the apostles, he wasn’t preaching against them. After his conversion he was visited by Ananias who was in communion with the whole Church and through whom he was given back his sight. (Acts 9:5:19) Jesus said to Paul “Get up now and go into the city, and you will be told what you have to do.” His commission to go out and preach and his filling with the Holy Spirit came from the Church.

Jesus prayed at the last supper “Father, may they be one in us, as you are in me and I am in you, so that the world may believe it was you who sent me.”

The breakup of the the Church at the Reformation was not the will of God. Yes there were faults on both sides and abuses in the Church (Pope John Paul II apologized for the failures of the Church to follow Christ’s teachings), but rebellion was not the answer. And now we should not repeat the sins of the past, but be working towards Church unity as Jesus would have us do.

And to further make your point, remember when Jesus said to Peter:" You are rock and on this rock I will build my church and the powers of evil shall not prevail upon it , look not on your sins but The FAITH of your Church.

 

[justasking4]

JA4, as I read this thread I chuckled when you said that your IQ was 12. Now I’m not so sure! Can you find in Scriptures where it said Luther, Calvin, et al should go out and start a chruch? I can’t seem to find “and upon this fallen away monk who broke every vow he ever spoke I build my church” yet that is where you hang your hat.

You can so easily accept a couple of guys turning their collective backs on 1,500 years of THE Church; yet you can not accept the Sacred Tradition the Church passed on for those 1,500 years.

Get it together. You can’t have it both ways.

We all pray for you that you may open your heart and accept the Full Deposit of Faith contained within the Catholic Church and return home.

What exactly i.e. the details of all the Sacred Tradtions the Church passed on for those 1,500 years are? Do you have a simple list of them?

 

[justasking4]

Yes but if you read the Acts of the Apostles you will see that Paul was in communion with the apostles, he wasn’t preaching against them. After his conversion he was visited by Ananias who was in communion with the whole Church and through whom he was given back his sight. (Acts 9:5:19) Jesus said to Paul “Get up now and go into the city, and you will be told what you have to do.” His commission to go out and preach and his filling with the Holy Spirit came from the Church.

Jesus prayed at the last supper “Father, may they be one in us, as you are in me and I am in you, so that the world may believe it was you who sent me.”

The breakup of the the Church at the Reformation was not the will of God. Yes there were faults on both sides and abuses in the Church (Pope John Paul II apologized for the failures of the Church to follow Christ’s teachings), but rebellion was not the answer. And now we should not repeat the sins of the past, but be working towards Church unity as Jesus would have us do.

I do think that the reformation was the will of Christ for a number reasons:
1- the roman catholic church had put so many obstacles to the gospel
2- corruption in the church that was going on for centuries.
3- to much power in the hands of a few men
4- the reformation made it possible for a greater spread of the gospel
5- it made it possible for the Scriptures to be given directly to the people.
6- made it possible for churches to be based on the model of the NT church.

 

[guanophore]

Also, if you want to understand what the Church teaches on Sacred Tradition, look into the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

He is not interested in learning about Catholicism. He has already made up his mind on the issue of Sacred Tradition.

I have seen this claim many times about Sacred Tradition and those things not recorded in the scriptures. The problem is that if its not in the scriptures, its not inspired-inerrant. Those things not in the scriptures are not binding though. They do not carry apostolic authority. Keep in mind that most of these if not all of them are not grounded in the scriptures.

ja4 believes that the Sacred Tradition is false teaching, and wants Catholics to use the Bible to question and confront the Teaching Authority of the Catholic Church, because they have strayed from Biblical Truth.

And well they (Catholics) should question. The scriptures warn of false teachers in the church who will decieve many. That is why you should hold your church accountable to what the scriptures teach. What you must do is be on guard against false teachers in your own church.

The scriptures do warn of false teachers in the church itself. There was no promise given by Christ that this would not happen.
Thats the issue.

(the reason I ask about Sacred Tradition is that I) might get someone who reads these posts to rethink their position.

"guanophore:

But you have already made it clear that you consider these “speculations of men” and false teachng that has crept into the Church, so why keep bringing it up?

i want to help others see it to.

ja4 believes all the Catholic Traditions he cannot find in his bible are “false gospel”.

If what you say is true, then this would be a false gospel since Paul was totally unaware of the many doctrines in the catholic church.

The scriptures warn that false teachers would come into the church itself and decieve many. How does a catholic go about applying this principle in their church today?

(scripture)

Its all we have. **Anything else is mere specualtions **and its not wise to build doctrines on speculations. You need facts to show and those facts don’t exist. Thats just the way it is. What you must do is be on guard against false teachers in your own church.

ja4 does not believe in the Apostles Creed, containing the communion of saints.
"justasking4:

When it comes to prayer and worship Jesus alone is sufficent. However He has so designed the church here that we are to encourage each other and pray for each other. Nowhere in scripture is anyone to pray to a created being.All prayers are only to be prayed to God.

justasking:

The NT is inspired-inerrant. Nothing else is. It is the foundation for all doctrine and practices because it alone is inspired-inerrant. From it we can have everything we need for salvation. It actually makes this claim as you may know.

I go to the inspired-inerrant scriptures as the final authority.

True biblical faith requires us to have evidence and reason for our beliefs. Jesus Himself taught this principle in a number of places.

It could just as easily be shown in some respects how quickly the church was allowing unbilical teachings into the church at a very early stage.

If the catholic church was not corrupt, then why was desired in the catholic church itself for a reformation around the 15th century?

(Magesterium)

Confront them and expose them.

… those things not recorded in the scriptures. The problem is that if its not in the scriptures, its not inspired-inerrant. Those things not in the scriptures are not binding though. They do not carry apostolic authority.
Keep in mind that most of these if not all of them (Marian doctrines) are not grounded in the scriptures.

(guanophore believes justasking4 is only on CAF to get Catholics to question their leadership)

And well they should question. The scriptures warn of false teachers in the church who will decieve many. That is why you should hold your church accountable to what the scriptures teach. When you study the marian doctrines in light of the scriptures you will find that the support is not there. What you must do is be on guard against false teachers in your own church. The scriptures do warn of false teachers in the church itself. There was no promise given by Christ that this would not happen.

 

[CTA1967]

That sounds similar to saying, “i think ill skip english class today i dont think we need apostrophes or capitalization or commas or punctuation therefore my english teacher is wrong i have a right to my own personal interpretation i dont need authority”

What I meant by my example is that your reasoning, as far as I can see from what you’ve written, is that you seem to think that the Catholic Church is wrong because people have split away from it.

I don’t know, but I’m starting to wonder if this just some sort of joke to you. Did you just come here just to irritate the Catholics? Because you sure aren’t converting any of them.

 

[guanophore]

I do think that the reformation was the will of Christ for a number reasons:
1- the roman catholic church had put so many obstacles to the gospel
2- corruption in the church that was going on for centuries.
3- to much power in the hands of a few men
4- the reformation made it possible for a greater spread of the gospel
5- it made it possible for the Scriptures to be given directly to the people.
6- made it possible for churches to be based on the model of the NT church.

Which begs the question, ja4. Since you have already found what you are looking for spiritually, why are you here on this forum? Do you wish to pursuade Catholics to believe in points 1-6 as you have listed above? Do you wish to convince us that Sacred Tradition is the “speculation of men”?

What I meant by my example is that your reasoning, as far as I can see from what you’ve written, is that you seem to think that the Catholic Church is wrong because people have split away from it.

I don’t know, but I’m starting to wonder if this just some sort of joke to you. Did you just come here just to irritate the Catholics? Because you sure aren’t converting any of them.

I don’t believe it is a joke at all. I think he honestly believes what he has been taught, and that he feels a moral obligation to preach the unadulterated gospel to us so that we can still be saved. Besides, who knows now many he is reaching? If you look at the post counts on the home page, you can see that there are 10 times more lurkers than there are posters. He has offered PM before, perhaps he is reaching some.

 

[justasking4]

CTA1967;3133339]

Originally Posted by justasking4
Quote:
That sounds similar to saying, “i think ill skip english class today i dont think we need apostrophes or capitalization or commas or punctuation therefore my english teacher is wrong i have a right to my own personal interpretation i dont need authority”

In your example with the english teacher must the teacher be infallible?

CTA
What I meant by my example is that your reasoning, as far as I can see from what you’ve written, is that you seem to think that the Catholic Church is wrong because people have split away from it.

No. What i’m referring to is the claim that the Magisterium is an infallible teacher. The catholic did give people in the 15-16th centuries to leave.

I don’t know, but I’m starting to wonder if this just some sort of joke to you. Did you just come here just to irritate the Catholics? Because you sure aren’t converting any of them.

Converting is up to the Holy Spirit. What i’m interested is getting people to think deeply. I suspect for some this is not happening but getting a lot of catholics angry. For others perhaps it is getting them to think. I don’t know for sure.