Tradition can be misleading? So can the Bible.

[alanjeddy]

We are seeing a break today over the issue of homosexuality. This is a legimate reason of a break.
The answers i gave you, are they false?

Would you leave your church if it sanctioned gay marriage?

So let me get this right, you are saying the 33,000 splintered protestants faiths were caused by homosexuality?? are you just plain ignorant or are you trying to insult our intelligence? Tell me j4 is it warmer in the summer than it is in the city? Did you take your lunch to school or ride the bus? That is what your answers sound like.

 

[justasking4]

Finally, justasking4, one question! You tend to shoot out questions like bullets from a gun. I’m a “view from the pew” person not a scriptural scholar or even an expert on Church teaching. But I would say you would start with the Creed. Now how about that. Do you agree to everything in the Apostles’ Creed?
I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
Creator of heaven and earth.
I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord
He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit
and born of the Virgin Mary.
He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified,
died and was buried. He descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again. He ascended into
heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the
Father. He will come again to judge the living
and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic
Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness
of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the
life everlasting. Amen
Can you say Amen to that brother?? And while we’re here maybe you’ve told others before, but what is your background? When you want to give someone directions where to go, it’s good to know where they are coming from.
and by the way Happy New Year.

i agree with the creed. If you want to know my background look up my profile.

 

[justasking4]

alanjeddy;3156880]

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
We are seeing a break today over the issue of homosexuality. This is a legimate reason of a break.
The answers i gave you, are they false?

Would you leave your church if it sanctioned gay marriage?

alanjeddy
So let me get this right, you are saying the 33,000 splintered protestants faiths were caused by homosexuality??

No. I was using what is going in the Angilcan church of today.

are you just plain ignorant or are you trying to insult our intelligence?

I’m ignorant and not trying to insult.

Tell me j4 is it warmer in the summer than it is in the city? Did you take your lunch to school or ride the bus? That is what your answers sound like.

 

[guanophore]

i agree with the creed. If you want to know my background look up my profile.

Your profile really doesn’t tell us anything about your background, ja4. Being Protestant does not guarantee agreement with the creed. Especially because it is drawn entirely from Sacred Tradition, which many Protestants reject.

 

[alanjeddy]

No. I was using what is going in the Angilcan church of today.

I’m ignorant and not trying to insult.

I am sorry but you get under the skin of many people not just me. I have long since lost patience with you . I will remember you in my prayers. Whoever said you were put here to try our patience was so insightful!

 

[sterryfamily]

justasking4 - alright, you win. Since we are unable to satisfy you as to what Christ and His Church mean when they refer to Sacred Tradition, why don’t YOU explain it to US.

Your objective is twofold:

**1) **Tell us exactly what the Bible means by tradition as recorded in passages such as these:

“I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you” (1 Cor. 11:2)

“stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter” (2 Thess. 2:15).

2) Demonstrate for us, concretely, how your interpretation and understanding is supported by the Early Church Fathers.

Go ahead.

 

[alanjeddy]

justasking4 - alright, you win. Since we are unable to satisfy you as to what Christ and His Church mean when they refer to Sacred Tradition, why don’t YOU explain it to US.

Your objective is twofold:

**1) **Tell us exactly what the Bible means by tradition as recorded in passages such as these:

“I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you” (1 Cor. 11:2)

“stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter” (2 Thess. 2:15).

2) Demonstrate for us, concretely, how your interpretation and understanding is supported by the Early Church Fathers.

Go ahead.

,
Wow excellent questions!

 

[justasking4]

sterryfamily;3158144]justasking4 - alright, you win. Since we are unable to satisfy you as to what Christ and His Church mean when they refer to Sacred Tradition, why don’t YOU explain it to US.

Your objective is twofold:

**1) **Tell us exactly what the Bible means by tradition as recorded in passages such as these:

“I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you” (1 Cor. 11:2)

“stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter” (2 Thess. 2:15).

The traditions that Paul is referring to are his own. We many of them by his letters.

2) Demonstrate for us, concretely, how your interpretation and understanding is supported by the Early Church Fathers.

Why do i need any support from any father? Have you read the works of the church fathers (not quotes but the entire works of what they wrote)?

Go ahead.

I’m not the one making the claim about Sacred Tradiiton. You are. You need to define it not me. Catholics are make the claims and they need to support it if they can. So far i have seen very little support.

 

[sterryfamily]

The traditions that Paul is referring to are his own. We many of them by his letters.

Why do i need any support from any father? Have you read the works of the church fathers (not quotes but the entire works of what they wrote)?

I’m not the one making the claim about Sacred Tradiiton. You are. You need to define it not me. Catholics are make the claims and they need to support it if they can. So far i have seen very little support.

You are now just being obstinate. There is a TON of support from the Early Fathers. Whenever questions arose, their appeal was ALWAYS to Tradition. You know that - and so does everybody else here.

As to St Paul’s reference to Tradition, you haven’t answered my question. What is TRADITION according to the Bible? Why does the Bible command that we follow TRADITION?

Why one needs support from any Father is the basic question of heresy. We know the Bible forbids schism and heresy and says that none who practice these can inherit the Kingdom (In Galatians 5:19-21 the original Greek for dissensions and factions is rendered as schism and heresy). If one proposes an idea that goes against Tradition, then they are just spouting new inventions created by men who are opposed to Christ’s Church. The Bible forbids us to follow them or their inventive ideas.

 

[alanjeddy]

The traditions that Paul is referring to are his own. We many of them by his letters.

Why do i need any support from any father? Have you read the works of the church fathers (not quotes but the entire works of what they wrote)?

I’m not the one making the claim about Sacred Tradiiton. You are. You need to define it not me. Catholics are make the claims and they need to support it if they can. So far i have seen very little support.

,

Is that the best you can do to answer Sterry family’s questions??? Well i am not surprised. You should really enroll in a theolgy 101 class. But on second thought you might need 1 thru 100 first.

 

[sterryfamily]

are you suggesting the Bible is wrong where it commands us to adhere to Sacred Tradition?

 

[guanophore]

The traditions that Paul is referring to are his own. We many of them by his letters.

This can’t be true! You have already stated that traditions are the “speculations of men”!!! Surely you are not implying that Paul wants them to keep these “speculations of men” on the same par with the written letters!

Why would Paul be encouraging them to keep his vain speculations anyhow?

Why do i need any support from any father? Have you read the works of the church fathers (not quotes but the entire works of what they wrote)?

Yes. You need to do this because the fathers represent the early beliefs and teaching of the Church. Surely you will find support for your view in their writings?

I’m not the one making the claim about Sacred Tradiiton. You are. You need to define it not me. Catholics are make the claims and they need to support it if they can. So far i have seen very little support.

Actually, in the verses you were given, it was Paul the Aposlte “making the claim” that traditions should be followed. So, what is he telling them to observe? What was “handed down” to him, that he passed on to them, and requires that they keep it?

 

[justasking4]

sterryfamily;3158408]

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
The traditions that Paul is referring to are his own. We many of them by his letters.

Why do i need any support from any father? Have you read the works of the church fathers (not quotes but the entire works of what they wrote)?

I’m not the one making the claim about Sacred Tradiiton. You are. You need to define it not me. Catholics are make the claims and they need to support it if they can. So far i have seen very little support.

You are now just being obstinate. There is a TON of support from the Early Fathers. Whenever questions arose, their appeal was ALWAYS to Tradition. You know that - and so does everybody else here.

I’m not that familar with the Early Fathers. It appears you are. What Tradition are you speaking of here?

As to St Paul’s reference to Tradition, you haven’t answered my question. What is TRADITION according to the Bible? Why does the Bible command that we follow TRADITION?

Here is the way the word is defined in 2 Thes 2:15–to deliver in teaching. A tradition, **doctrine or injunction **delivered or communicated from one to another, whether divine (1 Cor. 11:2; 2 Thess. 2:15; 3:6) or human (Matt. 15:2, 3, 6; Gal. 1:14; Col. 2:8)
Zodhiates, S. (2000, c1992, c1993).
If you want to know what his specific traditions i.e. teachings then you need to study his letters.

Why one needs support from any Father is the basic question of heresy.

Can you clarify this?

We know the Bible forbids schism and heresy and says that none who practice these can inherit the Kingdom (In Galatians 5:19-21 the original Greek for dissensions and factions is rendered as schism and heresy). If one proposes an idea that goes against Tradition, then they are just spouting new inventions created by men who are opposed to Christ’s Church. The Bible forbids us to follow them or their inventive ideas.

This is confusing. Are you using the terms Tradition and the Scriptures interchangably?

I didn’t see you answer my question about the fathers. Have you studied them in depth or do you rely on quotes from them?

 

[justasking4]

are you suggesting the Bible is wrong where it commands us to adhere to Sacred Tradition?

Do you mean by Sacred Tradition the Scriptures only or something else?

 

[Chellow]

When a protestants say “traditions can be twisted” just agree with them and tell them to get rid of the Bible. The New Testaments books where all selected because they followed church Tradition. Church tradition was the canon that the church fathers used to pick the new testaments book.

 

[justasking4]

Chellow;3159017]When a protestants say “traditions can be twisted” just agree with them and tell them to get rid of the Bible.

What “traditions” are you referring to?

The New Testaments books where all selected because they followed church Tradition. Church tradition was the canon that the church fathers used to pick the new testaments book.

If the tradition the church used was true then by all means follow it.

 

[Chellow]

What “traditions” are you referring to?

If the tradition the church used was true then by all means follow it.

Thanks, if you accept the bible you accept Church tradition, so dear brothers and sisters don’t use “traditions can be twisted”.

 

[guanophore]

I’m not that familar with the Early Fathers.

Now would be a good time!

Here is the way the word is defined in 2 Thes 2:15–to deliver in teaching. A tradition, **doctrine or injunction **delivered or communicated from one to another, whether divine (1 Cor. 11:2; 2 Thess. 2:15; 3:6) or human (Matt. 15:2, 3, 6; Gal. 1:14; Col. 2:8)
Zodhiates, S. (2000, c1992, c1993).

So are we in agreement that some of the traditions are doctrines and injunctions, delivered and communicated from one to another?

This would be a new defintion for you, ja4, because previously, you have always held them to be “speculations of men”.

If you want to know what his specific traditions i.e. teachings then you need to study his letters.

I believe that is what the question was asking, ja4. Based on your knowledge of Paul’s letters, what were the traditions that he was commanding should be kept? Can we agree that they were doctrine and injunctions, rather than “speculations”?

This is confusing. Are you using the terms Tradition and the Scriptures interchangably?

Don’t you think Paul does that in the letter? “Whether by word of mouth, or by letter”? Isn’t that putting them pretty well equal?

I didn’t see you answer my question about the fathers. Have you studied them in depth or do you rely on quotes from them?

And you did not bring evidence from the fathers on your definition of tradition, either. Do you disagree? Do you think the fathers are not good source material for what the early Christians thought and practiced?

Do you mean by Sacred Tradition the Scriptures only or something else?

Since most of the NT did not exist at the time, I think it is safe to say he is speaking about the oral teachings that he passed on to the Churches.

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;3159138]
Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
I’m not that familar with the Early Fathers.
guanophore
Now would be a good time!

Have you studied the fathers themselves or just the quotes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
Here is the way the word is defined in 2 Thes 2:15–to deliver in teaching. A tradition, doctrine or injunction delivered or communicated from one to another, whether divine (1 Cor. 11:2; 2 Thess. 2:15; 3:6) or human (Matt. 15:2, 3, 6; Gal. 1:14; Col. 2:8)
Zodhiates, S. (2000, c1992, c1993).
guanophore
So are we in agreement that some of the traditions are doctrines and injunctions, delivered and communicated from one to another?

Yes

This would be a new defintion for you, ja4, because previously, you have always held them to be “speculations of men”.

I don’t recall saying this about the apostlles or the Scriptures. What i have said is that those doctrines and practices not grounded in the scriptures are the “speculations of men” since they have no scriptural authority behind them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
If you want to know what his specific traditions i.e. teachings then you need to study his letters.
guanophore
I believe that is what the question was asking, ja4. Based on your knowledge of Paul’s letters, what were the traditions that he was commanding should be kept?

Some examples can be found in the very letter in which he mentions his traditions. 2 Thes 3:6-15 would be a good example of his traditions.

Can we agree that they were doctrine and injunctions, rather than “speculations”?

In the case of the Paul and the scriptures yes. However, if its not in the scriptures then you speculations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
This is confusing. Are you using the terms Tradition and the Scriptures interchangably?
guanophore
Don’t you think Paul does that in the letter? “Whether by word of mouth, or by letter”? Isn’t that putting them pretty well equal?

I would think so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
I didn’t see you answer my question about the fathers. Have you studied them in depth or do you rely on quotes from them?
guanophore
And you did not bring evidence from the fathers on your definition of tradition, either. Do you disagree?

Since i don’t know the fathers that well i don’t know what they thought of tradition. I’m wondering if the term “tradition” is the same as Scripture alone.

Do you think the fathers are not good source material for what the early Christians thought and practiced?

Yes. However that does not mean that all they taught was true though. i don’t think even the catholic church agrees with all that the fathers said. Would you agree?

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
Do you mean by Sacred Tradition the Scriptures only or something else?
guanophore
Since most of the NT did not exist at the time, I think it is safe to say he is speaking about the oral teachings that he passed on to the Churches.

Since we don’t know what these oral teachings were the only thing we have are his letters. Should we assume some of this oral teaching was evenually written down as his letters?

---

 

[guanophore]

Have you studied the fathers themselves or just the quotes?

I did not answer this, because I did not think it was directed to me.
25 years ago I had left the Catholic Church. I went to a Protestant Evangelical Seminary so that I could figure out which church I should join. I took a course in historical Theology, where I first read the fathers. I came out of three years of Theological Studies more Catholic than I have ever been! I encourage you to read the fathers, ja4, but I also caution you. They are very Catholic!

I don’t recall saying this about the apostlles or the Scriptures. What i have said is that those doctrines and practices not grounded in the scriptures are the “speculations of men” since they have no scriptural authority behind them.

No, you have said that about tradition, though. Now it appears you are forwarding a defintion that might be different. The defintion you gave is that traditions may mean doctrine and injunctions that ought to be followed by the faithful. This is a different definition than you have given in the past for the tradition.

Some examples can be found in the very letter in which he mentions his traditions. 2 Thes 3:6-15 would be a good example of his traditions.

You have said many times that “all we have” is in the Bible. Do you believe that all the traditions that Paul delivered are in the NT?

In the case of the Paul and the scriptures yes. However, if its not in the scriptures then you speculations.

By this do you mean, if Paul gave them any oral instructions that were not later written down, then they are no longer apostolic traditions, but speculations?

I would think so.

I think so too. I think that the oral instructions he gave them that were from the Spirit were of equal authority as the words he later wrote in his letters.

Since i don’t know the fathers that well i don’t know what they thought of tradition. I’m wondering if the term “tradition” is the same as Scripture alone.

This is an interesting question to explore. I think we need to be mindful that the first Christians were all Jews, and thoroughly steeped in oral tradition as a way of life. Jesus taught using this method (not passing out books, for example). When Jesus told the Apostles to “go and teach all that I have commanded”, they implemented the methods that Jesus used. This method of oral transmission was adopted by the whole first generation of disciples, and by the early fathers for several centuries. When the canon was closed, it was no longer a question which documents were considered inspired, and which were not.

Yes. However that does not mean that all they taught was true though. i don’t think even the catholic church agrees with all that the fathers said. Would you agree?

Frankly, it is a mystery to me why some of the early writings were not included in the NT, the Didache, for example. In some of them, I cannot find anything that contradicts Catholic teaching. However, I do agree with you that there are comments in some of the works that do not agree with Church teaching. Despite this, they are a good source of historical information about what the early church thought about and practiced.

Since we don’t know what these oral teachings were the only thing we have are his letters. Should we assume some of this oral teaching was evenually written down as his letters?

Catholics don’t assume this, ja4, as you do, and neither do the Orthodox. In fact, the Apostolic faiths believe as they pray, in liturgy. Much of this was not written down in the NT.

---