Tradition can be misleading? So can the Bible.

[Rbt_Southwell]

I don’t want to see you or others get taken off these formns but i think you and others are violating this rule:

Messages posted to this board must be polite and free of personal attacks, threats, and crude or sexually-explicit language, rude comments and innuendo.
Calling me in league with the devil is a violation of this. Please don’t do this.

He might have meant “playing the devil’s advocate.” At least I will give him the benefit of the doubt.

Especially in light of your cavalier attitude in hitting and running after posting some goofy statements about the Catholic Church,
you should try being charitable.

Robert

 

[alanjeddy]

Now he’s on the “Did Jesus have brothers” thread making the same puerile, uninformed statements and asking the same questions. I really think he is a phony who hates Catholocism.

 

[guanophore]

Now he’s on the “Did Jesus have brothers” thread making the same puerile, uninformed statements and asking the same questions. I really think he is a phony who hates Catholicism.

I find many catholics who want to hide behind this kind of statements. Jesus never promised that the church would never be able to teach error. The scriptures warn of false teachers in the church itself that will decieve many. For you to believe this is to go against the clear teachings of the scriptures. Men are fallible and can and do error. To claim as you do they cannot is not grounded in the scriptures nor can it be supported by history.

If what you say is true, then why was there a counter reformation in the catholic church around the time of the reformation? To have a counter reformation in your church is saying there is something wrong with some of its doctrines and practices that need to be reformed.

You should doubt what your church tells you about this. When Thomas doubted that Christ rose from the dead what did Jesus do? He gave him the evidence.** Thats what you should demand of your church and not allow them to hide behind some kind of mystery.** If the bread and wine have truly changed you should be able to detect it.

I agree. However what i don’t see catholic doing is holding their church accountable for its teachings. The Scriptures are clear that false teachers will come into the church and deceive many. That has happened in the catholic church.

I’m would think even you have certain qualms about some issues in your church.

"justasking4:

I know catholics accept these things as true. However due to the nature of these sacred traditons and the claims made in regard to them, they really don’t support what the apostles taught. Your church goes far beyond what the apostles taught with so many of its doctrines.

** The church has always had the scriptures but had chosen to introduce the doctrines of men instead.**

However the catholic church has not fully adhered to this but has introduced doctrines that the apostles never taught. It not about a stumbling block for me but the truth. If study the scriptures and church history you will not find the support for many of the claims made by the Roman Catholic church.

What i see here is that those believe it primarily on the premise that the catholic church claims it so and that is enough. i don’t see most catholics here want to know the truth.

"justasking:

Depends what you mean by “prevail”. There is a lot of evil in the history of the catholic church. Even up to this day.

I don’t get tired with this so no need to worry.

Yeah, I would say that it has been pretty consistently anti-Catholic.

 

[Elizabeth2]

Where is the evidence that Paul is referring to the other apostles in this statement ?

I poiinted out to you in previous posts that Paul and the other apostles were in communion with each other. At the end of one of the Gospels, I can’t remember which, it says that if all the things that Jesus did and said were to be written down, the world could not contain all the books. Jesus said at the last supper (I don’t have my bible hear but I will paraphrase), that there was more that he had to tell them, but that it would be too much for them right then, and that he would send the comforter (the Holy Spirit) to reveal the truth to them.
And this has happened in the Church. I mentioned the Catholic Catechism. That’s the best place you will find the Tradition of the Catholic Church. You said it doesn’t go into enough depth. But it does give you plenty of quotations if you want to study the teachings in more depth.
You are probably right that many Catholics have not studied in depth. It’s a lifetime process. A lifetime journey. As Catholics and as Christians we are meant to educate ourselves, but we are also supposed to be in the world evangelizing and contributing with the gifts God has given us. We can’t spend all our time studying God’s word and the traditions of the Church. And that is one reason Jesus gave authority to the apostles so that each person wouldn’t have to start from scratch.
You are right about not being boastful about the Church, we have the Church through God’s grace, not through our own merits.

 

[Elizabeth2]

So I went to the Catechism of the Catholic Church and looked up what it said in the index about tradition. Under “most important content” it says this in paragraph 638
“We bring you the good news that what God promised to the fathers, this day he has fulfilled to us their children by raising Jesus.” (Acts 13:32-33) The Resurrection of Jesus is the crowning truth of our faith in Christ, a faith believed and lived as the central truth by the first Christian community; handed on as fundamental by Tradition; established by the documents of the New Testament; and preached as an essential part of the Paschal mystery along with the cross:
Christ is risen from the dead
Dying, he conquered death;
To the dead, he has given life
(Byzantine liturgy)

---

And this from me:

At every Mass the priest says:
“Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith”
And we all say together:
“Christ has died
Christ is risen
Christ will come again”.

 

[c659smith]

Justforasking’

I think you are confusing “men” as equals with the Church equals infallability.

The Church is infallable not man !!

Even Christ in building his church with the 12 apostles had fallabilty through Judas, Peter denying Christ 3 times, Through the Apostles running away and into hiding at the time of the cucification, Thomas doubting the ressurection.

This shows infallability of men.

But the church itself is infallable through the scriptures, teachings, and traditions. This was given us from Christ through the Holy Spirit in order that we may be with the Father with Peter as the rock for without man there is no church to answer Jesus as Peter did 3 times that we do love him.

 

[justasking4]

Justforasking’

I think you are confusing “men” as equals with the Church equals infallability.

The Church is infallable not man !!

Even Christ in building his church with the 12 apostles had fallabilty through Judas, Peter denying Christ 3 times, Through the Apostles running away and into hiding at the time of the cucification, Thomas doubting the ressurection.

This shows infallability of men.

But the church itself is infallable through the scriptures, teachings, and traditions. This was given us from Christ through the Holy Spirit in order that we may be with the Father with Peter as the rock for without man there is no church to answer Jesus as Peter did 3 times that we do love him.

How can the church itself be infallible when the individual parts are not?
Not even the apostles claimed infalliblity for themselves.

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;3167520]ja4, you have been given multiple examples of Sacred Tradition, and have defined it as “speculations of men”. It is odd that you accept some of the Sacred Traditions, such as the canon of scripture, the hypostatic union, the Apostles Creed, and the Trinity, but reject others.

Do you understand, accept and believe everything the catholic church teaches?

However, since you have said that you have to pick and choose your doctrines, I suppose this is why.

I don’t think i’m alone on this either. I know a number of catholics that accept some things but not others.

Now, given that Sacred Tradition is part of the Divine Deposit of Faith that was handed on to us from Jesus Through the Apostles, lets explore your questions:

Let’s engage some common sense, shall we? Lent is part of the Liturgical calendar that did not exist in apostolic times, so it cannot be part of the Sacred Tradition.

Stations of the Cross did not emerge until the dark ages when most of the faithful could not read, and needed visual cues to follow the gospel message. Therefore it does not qualify.

Saying the Rosary is a private devotion, none of which are binding on the faithful, and therefore it does not qualify.

So it seems then that there are no new modern SACRED TRADITIONS correct?

 

[justasking4]

He might have meant “playing the devil’s advocate.” At least I will give him the benefit of the doubt.

Especially in light of your cavalier attitude in hitting and running after posting some goofy statements about the Catholic Church,
you should try being charitable.

Robert

Here is the quote that was said about me;
You are so right I have wanted to say this from the beginning he is the devils desciple. We have all given him compelling arguments on our sacred Deposit of faith and it goes in one ear and out the other. Whether he is being obstinate or just plain ignorant is beyond comprhension.

Now tell me, does that look like to you he’s “playing the devil’s advocate”?

 

[c659smith]

Justforasking 4,

The Church is the body of Christ, founded by Christ and governed by the successors of the Apostles chosen by Christ to do it’s works.

The Church as being the body of Christ is infallable as is Christ.

and just as the Apostles were man and man not perfect have done bad or wrong things but the Sacred Scripture, teachings, and traditions remain.

Actions of men do not change the Church or it’s purpose.

Read the first chapter of Matthew just where Matthew gives the geneology of Christ tell me what Matthew is saying,

 

[alanjeddy]

We don’t have to answer any further to Justbeing stupid Let us rather ask him to defend all the splintered protestants faiths. He believes homosexuality is the cause. Now does not that put his thought processes in perspective? Notice all the other Protestants coming to his defense? He is out there on stupid island. He is an embarrastment.

 

[alanjeddy]

How can the church itself be infallible when the individual parts are not?
Not even the apostles claimed infalliblity for themselves.

Jesus is the Head of the Church. He who is the Truth, the Way and the Life. He is immutable (unchangeable) We are all members of that Mystical Body of Christ.Guided by the HS ( remember Pentacost)

 

[justasking4]

Jesus is the Head of the Church. He who is the Truth, the Way and the Life. He is immutable (unchangeable) We are all members of that Mystical Body of Christ.Guided by the HS ( remember Pentacost)

This still does not mean that the church is infallible. It can’t be for the mere fact is that it is composed of fallen sinners. There has been only One infallible human being.

 

[justasking4]

We don’t have to answer any further to Justbeing stupid Let us rather ask him to defend all the splintered protestants faiths. He believes homosexuality is the cause. Now does not that put his thought processes in perspective? Notice all the other Protestants coming to his defense? He is out there on stupid island. He is an embarrastment.

i have to admit some of your comments are priceless. :extrahappy: :extrahappy:

 

[c659smith]

Justasking 4

I do not see what is impossible for you to understand.

1. I Is Jesus perfect and without fault?
2. Did Jesus build his Church?
3. The Church and note not churches was the Catholic Church.
   
   that is a fact like it or not.

The Church that God built with all His Sacred Teachings, Sacred Traditions, Sacred Scripture still stands today and is infallible as Christ is Infallible.

Man is fallible but not the Church.

 

[justasking4]

c659smith;3169141]Justforasking 4,

The Church is the body of Christ, founded by Christ and governed by the successors of the Apostles chosen by Christ to do it’s works.

The Church as being the body of Christ is infallable as is Christ.

and just as the Apostles were man and man not perfect have done bad or wrong things but the Sacred Scripture, teachings, and traditions remain.

If you want to claim infallibly for your church then we must use the only model we have and that is Christ. He was not only infallible in His teachings but also in how He lived. He is the template for infallibly. Anything less than this is not infallibly.
Now lets use this template and compare it with the catholic church of the past 2000 years. If you are familar with the history of the catholic church you know as well as i do that this is not going to come even close to looking infallible.

Actions of men do not change the Church or it’s purpose.

Not so. The actions of its people are absolutely vital in this and must be considered in infallibly.

Read the first chapter of Matthew just where Matthew gives the geneology of Christ tell me what Matthew is saying,

He is giving the geneology of Joseph. Correct?

 

[justasking4]

c659smith;3169501]Justasking 4

I do not see what is impossible for you to understand.

1. I Is Jesus perfect and without fault?

1. Did Jesus build his Church?

yes to both.

1. The Church and note not churches was the Catholic Church.

The problem is that the Roman Catholic church did not exist when He spoke this.

that is a fact like it or not.

The Church that God built with all His Sacred Teachings, Sacred Traditions, Sacred Scripture still stands today and is infallible as Christ is Infallible.

Man is fallible but not the Church.

You can claim this but Scripture and the history of your church shows something far different.

 

[c659smith]

Justfor asking 4

I really do think you understand fully what is being said here. I also do believe that you see the TRUTH in the Catholic Church.

The problem comes in you are not willing to sacrafice yourself tottally to the way of Christ

His Scriptures

His Teachings

His Traditions

I am a grain of sand in the sea. What I think,feel,or matter is not important.

I follow the Catholic Church for there is nothing we do or practice that does not come from Jesus as far as the Church is concerned.
What Man does with the gifts and graces he has been given is left up to man.

But the ***Church *** is infallible as Christ is the Church, Christ is God, and God is perfect.

 

[justasking4]

He is not here to learn, but to show Catholics that what they are being taught by the Church is wrong. The harrassment with ignorance is part of the dance. He makes it appear as though he is 'justasking" questions, but it is really a ruse to open an opportunity to malign Catholic Teaching.

Warning to other thread participants

he continues to make unfounded accusations.

 

[alanjeddy]

So JUSTASKING AND NEVER ANSWERING YOU ARE LIKE A PAINFUL HEMORROID THAT WON’T GO AWAY. WHY DON’T YOU DO US ALL A FAVOR AND GO PLAY HOPSCOTCH DURING RUSH HOUR ON YOUR FAVORITE HIGHWAY?

Why not try to repair all the disunity in the Protestant churches. That should keep you and your followers busy for about 12,000 years.