Tradition is a necessary part of Christianity

[Dokimas]

What about the examples of oral tradition shown in scriptures, even used by Christ Himself?

It’s not something I’ve looked into. Why don’t you list the ones you think are important and give me the Bible verses to help me study? Thank you.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

It’s not something I’ve looked into. Why don’t you list the ones you think are important and give me the Bible verses to help me study? Thank you.

Jesus told the people to do whatsoever they (those that sat on the chair of Moses) said to them, yet He didn’t explain what the chair of Moses was and it’s not listed anywhere in scriptures.

Look at Mark and Luke, neither of whom walked with Jesus yet, both wrote things Jesus said and did. Where could they have learned these things?

Paul, who also never walked with Jesus, wrote many things, one in particular was when he named the magicians that worked for Pharoah and turned their staffs into snakes. No where in scriptures are those magicians named except in Paul’s letter to Timothy.

In Paul’s letter to the Corinthians, he speaks of the rock that followed Moses and the people in the desert, that they all drank from. That is not in scriptures.

Now these are just a few examples. Please in return tell me how one knows which are important and which are not?

 

[Dokimas]

Jesus told the people to do whatsoever they (those that sat on the chair of Moses) said to them, yet He didn’t explain what the chair of Moses was and it’s not listed anywhere in scriptures.

Look at Mark and Luke, neither of whom walked with Jesus yet, both wrote things Jesus said and did. Where could they have learned these things?

Paul, who also never walked with Jesus, wrote many things, one in particular was when he named the magicians that worked for Pharoah and turned their staffs into snakes. No where in scriptures are those magicians named except in Paul’s letter to Timothy.

In Paul’s letter to the Corinthians, he speaks of the rock that followed Moses and the people in the desert, that they all drank from. That is not in scriptures.

Now these are just a few examples. Please in return tell me how one knows which are important and which are not?

Nice work. However you did not show me where any of your traditions were mentioned by these men. How do you know your traditions are God sanctioned? Just saying because your church says so is not a convincing answer.

 

[Dokimas]

Now these are just a few examples. Please in return tell me how one knows which are important and which are not?

There are no extra-Biblical traditions that I know of that are that important to list. Sorry I can’t help you.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Nice work. However you did not show me where any of your traditions were mentioned by these men. How do you know your traditions are God sanctioned? Just saying because your church says so is not a convincing answer.

So we can accept some traditions and reject others. Please explain how we are to tell the difference, because to be perfectly honest, and blunt, just because you say do is definately not a convincing answer…

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

There are no extra-Biblical traditions that I know of that are that important to list. Sorry I can’t help you.

So then, accepting Christ’s instructions about the chair of Moses, and knowing He was going to build a Church, you accpet the chair of Peter? See, you’ll have to explain how we don’t accept that single tradition, which is backup by scriptures even though you have a different interpretation. Speaking of different interpretations, by what tradition do you receive a correct interpretation?

 

[JonNC]

There is no conflict between the OT and the NT since the NT is explained by, and refers to, the OT. The conflict between and among those who hold to Tradition and scripture arises from the insistance of the use of “sola scriptura”, and those that reject any and all Tradition as the “traditions of men”.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

When I said there is conflict between those who hold to Tradition and scripture, I was talking about the east/west schism.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

=karl77;7552690]Since SS (“sola scriptura”) means “scripture alone”, how can you say that it does not deny the importance of Tradition? After all, the word “alone” in English means: “exclusive of anyone or anything else; considered without reference to any other.”

SS doesn’t exclude the importance of Tradition in this way. SS means that scriputre alone is the final norm, which holds teachers and teachings (Tradition) accountable to it.
So, when Tradition, for example the early councils and creeds, rightly reflect scripture, they are not rejected by SS. So, the Lutheran confessions say:

1. First , then, we receive and embrace with our whole heart] the Prophetic and Apostolic Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments as the pure, clear fountain of Israel, which is the only true standard by which all teachers and doctrines are to be judged.

4] 2. And since of old the true Christian doctrine, in a pure, sound sense, was collected from God’s Word into brief articles or chapters against the corruption of heretics, we confess, in the second place, the three Ecumenical Creeds, namely, the Apostles’, the Nicene, and the Athanasian, as glorious confessions of the faith, brief, devout, and founded upon God’s Word, in which all the heresies which at that time had arisen in the Christian Church are clearly and unanswerably refuted.

Also, since “sola scriptura” states that scripture is the only authority, please show me in scripture where it says “scripture alone?”

It doesn’t have to, because the notion that SS means we accept nothing but scripture is a false notion, as you can see above. Where Tradition is founded on scripture, it is accepted and stands as a confession of the true historic faith.

Jon

 

[Dokimas]

So we can accept some traditions and reject others. Please explain how we are to tell the difference, because to be perfectly honest, and blunt, just because you say do is definately not a convincing answer…

If I would except something as true because you or your church says so, I’d expect nothing less from you. That’s why the Bible interpreted by the Holy Spirit MUST be the final authority not any church. If a tradition can not be substanciated by the Bible, or worse, contradicted by the Bible, we should take great care not to make it a ‘Thus says God’ for the unsubstanciated traditions and not even practice something that is contradicted by the Bible.

All Christians, IMO, have traditions that fall in line with Biblical teachings and some that can’t be substantiated by the Bible and maybe we even have some that are wrong by Biblical standards. God protect us from the last category!!

 

[Dokimas]

So then, accepting Christ’s instructions about the chair of Moses, and knowing He was going to build a Church, you accpet the chair of Peter? See, you’ll have to explain how we don’t accept that single tradition, which is backup by scriptures even though you have a different interpretation. Speaking of different interpretations, by what tradition do you receive a correct interpretation?

Could you give me the verses that show Jesus’ instructions about the chair of Moses? I am not aware of this so I have no different interpretation of it.

As for your last question, I have no understanding of your meaning unless you mean the tradition of reading, studying and praying that the Holy Spirit will lead us into the Truth. However, even these are mentioned in the Bible so are they really traditions?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Could you give me the verses that show Jesus’ instructions about the chair of Moses? I am not aware of this so I have no different interpretation of it.

As for your last question, I have no understanding of your meaning unless you mean the tradition of reading, studying and praying that the Holy Spirit will lead us into the Truth. However, even these are mentioned in the Bible so are they really traditions?

**

Mat 23:1 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to his disciples,
Mat 23:2 Saying: The scribes and the Pharisees have sitten on the chair of Moses.
Mat 23:3 All things therefore whatsoever they shall say to you, observe and do: but according to their works do ye not. For they say, and do not.

**

Reading on through Matthew Chapter 23 you can see His ‘woes’ upon the sinful teacher. It’s not something He commanded the people to do on their own. For instance, where does scriptures teach, if you disagree with men of the Church, go start another? Man cannot do better than Christ.

These things were written about in the New Testament. The examples of Paul’s writings happened hundreds of years before he wrote anything. Since these things are not mentioned anywhere else in scriptures, He could have only learned them through the oral tradition…not sola scriptura.

As for the Holy Spirit leading each individual into Truth, there are hundreds, if not thousands, of different truths being taught through private interpretation…that’s what it is. Christ spoke that the Holy Spirit would guide them in truth and the only people He spoke those words too were His Apostles, that He chose and appointed/annointed. This was not something He promised the multitudes. Some of today’s Christians have usurped the authority on their own accord. Read John, I believe it starts around the 14th chapter on through and see who He was speaking too. It was His CHURCH.

 

[Dokimas]

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Reading on through Matthew Chapter 23 you can see His ‘woes’ upon the sinful teacher. It’s not something He commanded the people to do on their own. For instance, where does scriptures teach, if you disagree with men of the Church, go start another? Man cannot do better than Christ.

These things were written about in the New Testament. The examples of Paul’s writings happened hundreds of years before he wrote anything. Since these things are not mentioned anywhere else in scriptures, He could have only learned them through the oral tradition…not sola scriptura.

As for the Holy Spirit leading each individual into Truth, there are hundreds, if not thousands, of different truths being taught through private interpretation…that’s what it is. Christ spoke that the Holy Spirit would guide them in truth and the only people He spoke those words too were His Apostles, that He chose and appointed/annointed. This was not something He promised the multitudes. Some of today’s Christians have usurped the authority on their own accord. Read John, I believe it starts around the 14th chapter on through and see who He was speaking too. It was His CHURCH.

When was the last time you sat at the feet of a pharasee to learn from him?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

When was the last time you sat at the feet of a pharasee to learn from him?

Are you serious? I think I explained it well enough that anyone could understand. The scribes and Pharisees that sat on the chair of Moses taught God’s truth of the old covenant. The Church Christ built teaches the new and everlasting covenant, from the chair of Peter.

Show me an example in scriptures of anyone teaching themself to be a Christian. It’s not there.

**

Heb 13:17 Obey your prelates and be subject to them. For they watch as being to render an account of your souls: that they may do this with joy and not with grief. For this is not expedient for you.

**

Christ built an authoritative Church. Scriptures tell us to obey our prelates and be subject to them, not ourselves. We are not told we are our own ‘prelates’.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

St. Ignatius wrote, approximately, 107AD

**

Chapter 2. Be subject to the bishop, etc

For, since you are subject to the bishop as to Jesus Christ

, you appear to me to live not after the manner of men, but according to Jesus Christ, who died for us, in order, by believing in His death, you may escape from death. It is therefore necessary that, as you indeed do, so without the bishop you should do nothing, but should also be subject to the presbytery, as to the apostle of Jesus Christ, who is our hope, in whom, if we live, we shall [at last] be found. It is fitting also that the deacons, as being [the ministers] of the mysteries of Jesus Christ, should in every respect be pleasing to all. For they are not ministers of meat and drink, but servants of the Church of God. They are bound, therefore, to avoid all grounds of accusation [against them], as they would do fire.**

The earliest Christians did not teach for anyone to ‘go it alone’…

 

[Dokimas]

Are you serious? I think I explained it well enough that anyone could understand. The scribes and Pharisees that sat on the chair of Moses taught God’s truth of the old covenant. The Church Christ built teaches the new and everlasting covenant, from the chair of Peter.

Show me an example in scriptures of anyone teaching themself to be a Christian. It’s not there.

---

Christ built an authoritative Church. Scriptures tell us to obey our prelates and be subject to them, not ourselves. We are not told we are our own ‘prelates’.

(the highlighted part of your post) - Where on earth did this come form?

Who said there isn’t a need for teachers? I surely didn’t. The issue isn’t whether or not God raises up teachers (Ephesian 4:1ff) but is the CC the only church with God gifted teachers? My answer is a resounding NO, and of course that’s my opinion.

 

[Dokimas]

St. Ignatius wrote, approximately, 107AD

---

The earliest Christians did not teach for anyone to ‘go it alone’…

Interesting because neither does the Bible (Hebrews 10:25)

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

(the highlighted part of your post) - Where on earth did this come form?

Who said there isn’t a need for teachers? I surely didn’t. The issue isn’t whether or not God raises up teachers (Ephesian 4:1ff) but is the CC the only church with God gifted teachers? My answer is a resounding NO, and of course that’s my opinion.

You are the one saying that you ‘hope you’re in tune with Him’. That appears to be depending on yourself. What Church authority are you subject too Dokimas? What Church are you a member of?

I gave you the scriptures that show God set the offices in the Church. There were appointed teachers and offices, with authority. They used that God given authority to make selections of others to serve. There was a process. People did not chose themselves. Remember Simon, who tried to purchase the power to lay hands and give the Holy Spirit?

It’s one thing to say we’re wrong then make ‘resounding’ statements without explanation of how you are subject to your prelates…

 

[Little_Mary]

(the highlighted part of your post) - Where on earth did this come form?

Who said there isn’t a need for teachers? I surely didn’t. The issue isn’t whether or not God raises up teachers (Ephesian 4:1ff) but is the CC the only church with God gifted teachers? My answer is a resounding NO, and of course that’s my opinion.

Excuse me for jumping in here but I just wanted to point something out. You got my attention with “…is the Catholic Church the only church with God gifted teachers?”…

Here’s the thing…Before the reformation the Church was One. If Luther had not thrown the baby out with the bath, it would quite possibly still be One. All those endowed with the gift of teaching would all the teaching One Truth. We would all be One as the Son and the Father are One. This is Jesus’ prayer [John 17].

Just an observation.

The good news is that I believe that Jesus always gets His prayers answered. I pray, too, for the day we are all One again. Then we can stop spending our energy arguing our differences and use the time to praise Him!

I think I’ll start a new thread on that…

 

[Dokimas]

You are the one saying that you ‘hope you’re in tune with Him’. That appears to be depending on yourself. What Church authority are you subject too Dokimas? What Church are you a member of?

I gave you the scriptures that show God set the offices in the Church. There were appointed teachers and offices, with authority. They used that God given authority to make selections of others to serve. There was a process. People did not chose themselves. Remember Simon, who tried to purchase the power to lay hands and give the Holy Spirit?

It’s one thing to say we’re wrong then make ‘resounding’ statements without explanation of how you are subject to your prelates…

Thanks for trying to figure me out, but isn’t that the job of the Holy Spirit? This ‘job’ you’ve taken upon yourself does NOTHING for this or any discussion. Let’s get back to the topic.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Thanks for trying to figure me out, but isn’t that the job of the Holy Spirit? This ‘job’ you’ve taken upon yourself does NOTHING for this or any discussion. Let’s get back to the topic.

Your accusation is a catch 22.

I am not trying to figure you out. I am defending the faith, that you deny every aspect of publically on these forums. I take time to explain, in as much detail as I can, with supporting documentation. Some just go, ‘nope, I don’t believe it’, It’s easier for people to read through and see what’s going on than some think.

Look at my post you quoted. It speaks of offices set by God. That is a God started tradition of the Church. Isn’t this the topic of the thread?