Tradition: The Origins

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ShortyLaRock_82

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Catholics,

What would you say are the main sources for your Church traditions? The writings of the early church fathers? Catechism? Writings done by Popes and Bishops? All of the above?
 
Catholics,

What would you say are the main sources for your Church traditions? The writings of the early church fathers? Catechism? Writings done by Popes and Bishops? All of the above?
I was under the impression that Jewish tradition has a lot to do with it. I’m not overly familiar with Early Church history, I wish I could be of more help.

God Bless

Peter
 
I believe that Sacred Tradition is what Jesus and the apostles taught orally. Things that did not get written down in scripture.
 
All of the above including the Rosary, not eating meat on Fridays etc…
 
All of the above including the Rosary, not eating meat on Fridays etc…
1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
1Ti 4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

It would appear that your tradition conflicts with scripture. How would you explain it?
 
1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
1Ti 4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

It would appear that your tradition conflicts with scripture. How would you explain it?
You will need to, firstly, be open to understandin ALL that Catholicism professes in Her Holy Traditions, rather than, seemingly, looking to produce objections to each point a Catholic specifies.

The Church is Christian because it was established by Christ and it follows all that He taught. But you can see from the record that He is God, without begining or end. That being the case, the earliest traditions are those given to Adam as being the first revelation of God to man! (Monogamous Marriage)

Throughout the Old Testament, God interacted with humanity and from time to time revealed further traditions and laws for those who choose to follow Him to adhere to. But the record also shows how humans treat Divine revelation and either misunderstand, abuse or ignore them. (See the history of Israel in the OT)

Finally, He Himself came down here personally as the final revelation of His will for humanity and left with us the “How” to attain Heaven. We are taught that The Church is The NEW ISRAEL and all are ‘Jews’ (Chosen) as there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile!

Therefore, ALL Catholic Traditions stem from and include matters from the very beginning of God’s interaction with His creation. For instance, it is FROM ‘Catholic’ Tradition that we know of the Creation account. I say “Catholic” because the Jews did not procalim this knowledge in the same manner The Church does, nor spread it indiscriminately the way The Church did and has. It is now global knowledge, AFTER, The Church disseminated its Scriptures in proclaiming the Good News and claims of its Holy Founder.

I’m sure that you have Catholic ‘traditions’ earmarked as being erroneous and want to debate them, but just be aware that all that you know of Christianity, and as a Christian, stem from those traditions!

:cool:
 
You will need to, firstly, be open to understandin ALL that Catholicism professes in Her Holy Traditions, rather than, seemingly, looking to produce objections to each point a Catholic specifies.

The Church is Christian because it was established by Christ and it follows all that He taught. But you can see from the record that He is God, without begining or end. That being the case, the earliest traditions are those given to Adam as being the first revelation of God to man! (Monogamous Marriage)

Throughout the Old Testament, God interacted with humanity and from time to time revealed further traditions and laws for those who choose to follow Him to adhere to. But the record also shows how humans treat Divine revelation and either misunderstand, abuse or ignore them. (See the history of Israel in the OT)

Finally, He Himself came down here personally as the final revelation of His will for humanity and left with us the “How” to attain Heaven. We are taught that The Church is The NEW ISRAEL and all are ‘Jews’ (Chosen) as there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile!

Therefore, ALL Catholic Traditions stem from and include matters from the very beginning of God’s interaction with His creation. For instance, it is FROM ‘Catholic’ Tradition that we know of the Creation account. I say “Catholic” because the Jews did not procalim this knowledge in the same manner The Church does, nor spread it indiscriminately the way The Church did and has. It is now global knowledge, AFTER, The Church disseminated its Scriptures in proclaiming the Good News and claims of its Holy Founder.

I’m sure that you have Catholic ‘traditions’ earmarked as being erroneous and want to debate them, but just be aware that all that you know of Christianity, and as a Christian, stem from those traditions!

:cool:
Could you please explain those verses to me?

I’m more concerned about the origins of the traditions. How do we know they are reliable?
 
I’m more concerned about the origins of the traditions. How do we know they are reliable?
Now that is a very good question and strikes at the heart of all God’s revelations. For you see, God reveals himself to people within time and space. Our mortality means that the people who witnessed God’s revelation through his Son, Jesus Christ, are long gone and cannot witness to what was actually taught them. The only thing that is left to us is what they passed down to successive generations. So authenticity and reliability are key issues. As an example, how do we know that the Gospel of Mark was penned by Jon Mark, the disiciple of Paul and later Peter. There is little internal evidence that shows who the author was (authenticity) and how close to the resurrection it was actually penned (a measure of reliability). Only through the oral traditions of the early church was this knowledge retained, not through the written testimony of the Gospel.
 
I am not a scripture scholar or expert. There are other threads discussing tradition that I’m sure could answer your questions. What I understand is that there is Sacred Tradition- from the teachings of Jesus & the apostles and there is just tradition( there is probably a term for it). The rosary, priestly celebacy, abstenence,etc are not doctrine, dogma or Sacred tradition.
 
1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
1Ti 4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
It would appear that your tradition conflicts with scripture. How would you explain it?
No conflict- the RCC does not forbid marriage or command abstaining.
 
Yes, they certainly do. Priests aren’t allowed to marry, and Catholics aren’t allowed to eat meat on Friadays.
Eastern Catholic priests are often married. I ate meat on Friday. Abstainance from meat is a suggested penitential act, not a dogma.
 
Eastern Catholic priests are often married. I ate meat on Friday. Abstainance from meat is a suggested penitential act, not a dogma.
That’s odd, since there are MANY Catholics in my area who think eating meat on Friday is a sin. Are they just misinformed?
 
That’s odd, since there are MANY Catholics in my area who think eating meat on Friday is a sin. Are they just misinformed?
Yes and no. We are asked by the Church to perform an act of penance on Friday to commemorate Good Friday. The tradition has been to abstain from meat, but one can substitute that act of penance with another (perhaps giving up drinking alcohol on that day, might be a good idea? - could be a tough thing for a university student to do on a Friday night, trust me :))
 
This is why I love my faith. It isn’t easy being Catholic. It’s too easy being something else.
 
The Catholic Church does not ‘forbid’ meat or meats, i.e. it doesn’t say that eating meat at all, or eating a particular animal, is a sin. The Church recommends abstaining from meat, the word abstain implies that it is done with free will not compulsion, on particular days to help us to understand Our Lord’s sacrifice, and to remind us that “the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit” Romans 14:7.

Likewise, the Catholic Church does not ‘forbid’ anyone from marriage, unless they are indisposed to marry (i.e. children, close relations, people who are already married). Priests make a choice to pursue their calling in God’s kingdom in a different way, because “An unmarried man is concerned about the Lord’s affairs–how he can please the Lord.” 1 Corinthians 7:32.

If you want to find Catholic Traditions that conflict with Scripture, then make sure you first understand the Scriptures you are talking about.

I would point to three sources of Tradition in Scripture:
1 Timothy 3:15 “if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.”

Matthew 28: 19-20 “Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” (note also here that Christ does not say ‘the Holy Spirit is with you always’, and Christ always refers to the spirit as another person, but He says ‘I am with you always’ because Christ is truly present with us, in His body, blood, soul and divinity, in the Blessed Sacrament)

John 21:25 “Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.”

Note that I have used the New International Version, a respected protestant translation, to avoid any accusations of Catholic bias/ editing in the Holy Scriptures.

I would also point out that the Didache, which pre-dates some of the New Testament books, gives teachings which are generally accepted by the early Church Fathers to be the teachings of the twelve apostles. Although some of this teaching is specific disciplines that apply to that time and place, other parts of it refers to many aspects of Catholic tradition.
 
Yes, they certainly do. Priests aren’t allowed to marry, and Catholics aren’t allowed to eat meat on Friadays.
Desciplinary actions or requirements are not dogmas! Priests used to be married, until a council and Pope decided otherwise, citing the assertion of St Paul and the example of Our Founder (Christ) that celibacy is ‘superior’ state for the clergy. Marriage is is an honourable union instituted by God, but since Christ was not married, you can take the argument up with Him.

Abstaining from eating meat on Fridays is not all year round, but only during the period of Lent. It is simply a descipline action of ‘sacrificing’ something for that period. Some Catholics can do it all year round if they want. Most in the secular world call it “a New Year resolution!” If you transgress, it is like a ‘minor’ traffic infringement notice, not a major ‘dangerous / reckless driving offence’ causing death.

Moreover, whilst the actions of Catholics are supposed to point you to The Church, you should look to ACTUAL Church teaching to reach your conclusions; not each individual Catholic for we are all ‘sinners’ and quite capable of some humungous clangers, just like everyone else. Whether Catholic or not, we struggle along like everyone else.

:cool:
 
Priests used to be married, until a council and Pope decided otherwise, citing the assertion of St Paul and the example of Our Founder (Christ) that celibacy is ‘superior’ state for the clergy. Marriage is is an honourable union instituted by God, but since Christ was not married, you can take the argument up with Him.
When Jesus was incarnated, he came here for a reason: To pay the price for our sin. The fact that Christ wasn’t married only shows us that marriage wasn’t part of his mission.

Forbidding Priests from marrying doesn’t make them any holier than they would be if they were allowed to marry, unless your church thinks that the sexual act between husband and wife is somehow unclean or immoral for someone of that position.
 
Catholics,
What would you say are the main sources for your Church traditions? The writings of the early church fathers? Catechism? Writings done by Popes and Bishops? All of the above?
Hey Shorty,

Surely as a good evangelical you will be able to tell us where in the Scriptures it is stated that the Bible (the original version or yours, I’m open) is the Determining Rule of What Constitutes ‘Chrisitianity’?

I’m at a loss, since my Faith evolved out of Judaism and took on many of its traditions and rites.

Are ‘altar calls’ in the Bible? Why do so many people set up shop and open up their own ‘church of the everlasting rock’ worship center? Isn’t there ANY agreement among Christians who are non-Catholic?

Thanking you in advance,

Robert
 
When Jesus was incarnated, he came here for a reason: To pay the price for our sin. The fact that Christ wasn’t married only shows us that marriage wasn’t part of his mission.

Forbidding Priests from marrying doesn’t make them any holier than they would be if they were allowed to marry, unless your church thinks that the sexual act between husband and wife is somehow unclean or immoral for someone of that position.
No it certainly does not make one holier. Marriage is a gift and a beautiful one at that! But with gifts come responsibilities. If a priest were to marry, he would be committed to two loves which while admirable, are hard for most humans to handle. The priest is to view the Church as his wife, to protect her in every way he can the same as he would for a human wife. I’ve heard more stories of non-Catholic priests/ministers who are married and have been divorced many times because of the stresses involved both for the man as well as his wife. Catholic priests are called to do a job and put all their efforts into it, so it would be like asking a man to choose between two girlfriends I guess. Whichever one he commits to, he commits to for life.
 
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