Tradition

[rcwitness]

The “seat of Moses” isn’t literally a chair. It is merely a pulpit/lectern from which the Scriptures are read. The word “seat” means “center” or “base” as in the term “seat of power” which is not a chair either.

I think some of our non-Catholic Christian brothers and sisters are concerned that what is not written in scripture, but held as law equals oral tradition, and oral tradition = laws of men, and laws of men = opposition to God.

It’s probably not that simple. I don’t believe all oral traditions = Sacred Traditions. Many would be considered customs, which were indeed applied by the desires of men.

Even the Seat of Moses shared to appointed men by Moses was not commanded by God. It came by suggestion from his father in law. And the practice of its continued succession (whether by genealogy or not, i dont know) is not provided in Scripture (if im not mistaken). Nevertheless, Jesus recognized it’s binding reality.

According to Exodus 18, the Seat is an “office” which the rulers would judge matters brought to them. I am not saying it is a contradiction to what you are saying, but maybe not merely interpreting a Scripture reading. Maybe more of applying Scriptural understanding to matters brought to them? And Moses would be given the more difficult matters.

I think Sacred Tradition should not be mistaken with customs or practices. ST is more things understood that are believed to be from God, or bound by God. It’s usually regarding the way we know or understand how to apply commands of God. Or a Truth regarding the faith and morals in the New Covenant, which has connection to the Apostles and their disciples.

 

[CeelosDeznos]

I think some of our non-Catholic Christian brothers and sisters are concerned that what is not written in scripture, but held as law equals oral tradition, and oral tradition = laws of men, and laws of men = opposition to God.

It’s probably not that simple. I don’t believe all oral traditions = Sacred Traditions. Many would be considered customs, which were indeed applied by the desires of men.

Even the Seat of Moses shared to appointed men by Moses was not commanded by God. It came by suggestion from his father in law. And the practice of its continued succession (whether by genealogy or not, i dont know) is not provided in Scripture (if im not mistaken). Nevertheless, Jesus recognized it’s binding reality.

According to Exodus 18, the Seat is an “office” which the rulers would judge matters brought to them. I am not saying it is a contradiction to what you are saying, but maybe not merely interpreting a Scripture reading. Maybe more of applying Scriptural understanding to matters brought to them? And Moses would be given the more difficult matters.

I think Sacred Tradition should not be mistaken with customs or practices. ST is more things understood that are believed to be from God, or bound by God. It’s usually regarding the way we know or understand how to apply commands of God. Or a Truth regarding the faith and morals in the New Covenant, which has connection to the Apostles and their disciples.

The “seat of Moses” is not an office in Judaism, nor has there ever been such a thing.

Jesus reference to it a Matthew 23:2 is a reference to the platform or structure that acted as lectern or podium from which to proclaim the Torah and other Hebrew scriptures, sometimes used to teach from.

While there have been some ancient synagogues where this platform included a seat for the speaker, the word “seat” doesn’t refer to an actual chair or any type of office. Sometimes this stand was where the Torah scroll itself was kept or “sat,” thus the phrase “seat of Moses.”

 

[rcwitness]

The “seat of Moses” is not an office in Judaism, nor has there ever been such a thing.

Jesus reference to it a Matthew 23:2 is a reference to the platform or structure that acted as lectern or podium from which to proclaim the Torah and other Hebrew scriptures, sometimes used to teach from.

While there have been some ancient synagogues where this platform included a seat for the speaker, the word “seat” doesn’t refer to an actual chair or any type of office. Sometimes this stand was where the Torah scroll itself was kept or “sat,” thus the phrase “seat of Moses.”

You wouldn’t say that it fits any of these definitions of “office”?

Full Definition of*office

1a*:* a special duty, charge, or position conferred by an exercise of governmental authority and for a public purpose*:* a position of authority to exercise a public function and to receive whatever emoluments may belong to itb*:* a position of responsibility or some degree of executive authority

2[Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Late Latinofficium,from Latin]: a prescribed form or service of worship;specificallycapitalized:**divine office

3:* a religious or social ceremonial observance*:**rite

4a*:* something that one ought to do or must do*:* an assigned or assumed duty, task, or roleb*:* the proper or customary action of something*:functionc: something done for another:**service

5:* a place where a particular kind of business is transacted or a service is supplied: asa*:* a place in which the functions of a publicofficerare performedb*:* the directing headquarters of an enterprise or organizationc*:* the place in which a professional person conducts business

6pluralchiefly British:* the apartments, attached buildings, or outhouses in which the activities attached to the service of a house are carried on

7a*:* a major administrative unit in some governments*<British ForeignOffice>b:* a subdivision of some government departments<Patent*Office>

 

[CeelosDeznos]

You wouldn’t say that it fits any of these definitions of “office”?

Full Definition of*office

1a*:* a special duty, charge, or position conferred by an exercise of governmental authority and for a public purpose*:* a position of authority to exercise a public function and to receive whatever emoluments may belong to itb*:* a position of responsibility or some degree of executive authority

2[Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Late Latinofficium,from Latin]: a prescribed form or service of worship;specificallycapitalized:**divine office

3:* a religious or social ceremonial observance*:**rite

4a*:* something that one ought to do or must do*:* an assigned or assumed duty, task, or roleb*:* the proper or customary action of something*:functionc: something done for another:**service

5:* a place where a particular kind of business is transacted or a service is supplied: asa*:* a place in which the functions of a publicofficerare performedb*:* the directing headquarters of an enterprise or organizationc*:* the place in which a professional person conducts business

6pluralchiefly British:* the apartments, attached buildings, or outhouses in which the activities attached to the service of a house are carried on

7a*:* a major administrative unit in some governments*<British ForeignOffice>b:* a subdivision of some government departments<Patent*Office>

Go ask your local rabbi. There is no such office in Judaism, nor has there ever been.

 

[Wannano]

The “seat of Moses” is not an office in Judaism, nor has there ever been such a thing.

Jesus reference to it a Matthew 23:2 is a reference to the platform or structure that acted as lectern or podium from which to proclaim the Torah and other Hebrew scriptures, sometimes used to teach from.

While there have been some ancient synagogues where this platform included a seat for the speaker, the word “seat” doesn’t refer to an actual chair or any type of office. Sometimes this stand was where the Torah scroll itself was kept or “sat,” thus the phrase “seat of Moses.”

Thank you for your info. I notice in Exodus it says that Moses sat all day from morn to evening while the people stood by him. Not trying to say it is a chair but it is interesting how time can effect meanings. If it does not indicate any type of office then it is only furniture.

 

[rcwitness]

Go ask your local rabbi. There is no such office in Judaism, nor has there ever been.

If you say so…

It just seems that what Moses did was extend his “office” of judge to others specifically chosen.

On the morrow Moses sat to judge the people, and the people stood about Moses from morning till evening.14When Moses’ father-in-law saw all that he was doing for the people, he said, “What is this that you are doing for the people? Why do you sit alone, and all the people stand about you from morning till evening?”15And Moses said to his father-in-law, “Because the people come to me to inquire of God;16when they have a dispute, they come to me and I decide between a man and his neighbor, and I make them know the statutes of God and his decisions.”17Moses’ father-in-law said to him, “What you are doing is not good.18You and the people with you will wear yourselves out, for the thing is too heavy for you; you are not able to perform it alone.*19Listen now to my voice; I will give you counsel, and God be with you! You shall represent the people before God, and bring their cases to God;20and you shall teach them the statutes and the decisions, and make them know the way in which they must walk and what they must do.21Moreover choose able men from all the people, such as fear God, men who are trustworthy and who hate a bribe; and place such men over the people as rulers of thousands, of hundreds, of fifties, and of tens.22And let them judge the people at all times; every great matter they shall bring to you, but any small matter they shall decide themselves; so it will be easier for you, and they will bear the burden with you.23If you do this, and God so commands you, then you will be able to endure, and all this people also will go to their place in peace.”

24So Moses gave heed to the voice of his father-in-law and did all that he had said.25**Moses chose able men out of all Israel, and made them heads over the people, rulers of thousands, of hundreds, of fifties, and of tens.26And they judged the people at all times; hard cases they brought to Moses, but any small matter they decided themselves.**27Then Moses let his father-in-law depart, and he went his way to his own country.

Also, maybe I was wrong that this was not a command from God? His father in law seems to suggest it was.

 

[CeelosDeznos]

If you say so…

It just seems that what Moses did was extend his “office” of judge to others specifically chosen.

On the morrow Moses sat to judge the people, and the people stood about Moses from morning till evening.14When Moses’ father-in-law saw all that he was doing for the people, he said, “What is this that you are doing for the people? Why do you sit alone, and all the people stand about you from morning till evening?”15And Moses said to his father-in-law, “Because the people come to me to inquire of God;16when they have a dispute, they come to me and I decide between a man and his neighbor, and I make them know the statutes of God and his decisions.”17Moses’ father-in-law said to him, “What you are doing is not good.18You and the people with you will wear yourselves out, for the thing is too heavy for you; you are not able to perform it alone.*19Listen now to my voice; I will give you counsel, and God be with you! You shall represent the people before God, and bring their cases to God;20and you shall teach them the statutes and the decisions, and make them know the way in which they must walk and what they must do.21Moreover choose able men from all the people, such as fear God, men who are trustworthy and who hate a bribe; and place such men over the people as rulers of thousands, of hundreds, of fifties, and of tens.22And let them judge the people at all times; every great matter they shall bring to you, but any small matter they shall decide themselves; so it will be easier for you, and they will bear the burden with you.23If you do this, and God so commands you, then you will be able to endure, and all this people also will go to their place in peace.”

24So Moses gave heed to the voice of his father-in-law and did all that he had said.25**Moses chose able men out of all Israel, and made them heads over the people, rulers of thousands, of hundreds, of fifties, and of tens.26And they judged the people at all times; hard cases they brought to Moses, but any small matter they decided themselves.**27Then Moses let his father-in-law depart, and he went his way to his own country.

Also, maybe I was wrong that this was not a command from God? His father in law seems to suggest it was.

You are not incorrect except that you think that this is some sort of “office” in Judaism, like the Seat of Peter.

It isn’t. There is no such office. The position Moses held was not passed on. No one in Judaism is believed to have the same authority as Moses. In fact, the entire Messianic concept is the tradition that only the Messiah holds greater authority.

The “seat of Moses” is just another name given to the bema or pulpit/lectern in a synagogue. It’s not an office of authority but a place to speak and teach the Word of God.

If you do not agree with this your argument is not with me. You need to talk to your local rabbi or approach Jewish scholars as why no such office exists.

You can’t prove to me that Jews recognize such an office no matter how much you write or what Scriptures you quote or what logic your present. It’s like trying to say Catholics have an Office of Liturgical Dance at the Vatican. We don’t. It doesn’t matter what “proof” a person thinks there is for such an “office of dance” at the Holy See. There is no such place or thing. It does not exist.

 

[benjohnson]

My $.02:

I would say that Jesus is tradition - He is the Word made flesh - revealing more of God’s plan to the Jews and the Gentiles.

In addition, Jesus pointed to Jewish scriptural and oral tradition in helping us to understand.

 

[rcwitness]

You are not incorrect except that you think that this is some sort of “office” in Judaism, like the Seat of Peter.

It isn’t. There is no such office. The position Moses held was not passed on. No one in Judaism is believed to have the same authority as Moses. In fact, the entire Messianic concept is the tradition that only the Messiah holds greater authority.

The “seat of Moses” is just another name given to the bema or pulpit/lectern in a synagogue. It’s not an office of authority but a place to speak and teach the Word of God.

If you do not agree with this your argument is not with me. You need to talk to your local rabbi or approach Jewish scholars as why no such office exists.

You can’t prove to me that Jews recognize such an office no matter how much you write or what Scriptures you quote or what logic your present. It’s like trying to say Catholics have an Office of Liturgical Dance at the Vatican. We don’t. It doesn’t matter what “proof” a person thinks there is for such an “office of dance” at the Holy See. There is no such place or thing. It does not exist.

I’m just trying to understand the difference.

Does Judaism still practice this? Do people bring matters to them to be judged? What happens to the difficult cases?

 

[CeelosDeznos]

I’m just trying to understand the difference.

Does Judaism still practice this? Do people bring matters to them to be judged? What happens to the difficult cases?

No problem. I understand where you are coming from.

First, there is no central authority in Judaism. Each branch (Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, etc.) and even individual Jews within as well as those who consider themselves Post-denominational or Post-rabbinic Jews make decisions on how to apply Torah (the Mosaic Law) with autonomy.

The events in Scripture where Moses was deciding things for the people of Israel and then had to share this responsibilities deals with an unrepeated era in Jewish history. The Mosaic Law was new. No one knew all its demands. No Hebrew was raised from childhood trained in being a Jew according to the Law.

So when questions and problems arose, the people had to go to Moses in order to learn how to live the Law. There were no printing presses or smart phones or iPads to “Google” the answers. There were no copies of the Law or Bibles or compendiums of Torah. People had to go to the only source there was, Moses, to learn how to live according to the Law. All of this changed as people learned the Law, taught it to their children, and eventually settled in the Promised Land with a centralized worship system set in place.

I have heard for many years how some Christians mistake Jesus’ reference to the “seat of Moses” in Matthew’s Gospel to this event and claim that this was some sort of “office.” Because Gentile Christians have little to no exposure to the Jewish world Jesus lived in, they often have little resort but to make such assumptions on their own despite the fact that study Bibles and commentaries will let them know what the “seat of Moses” actually is.

The days of having to teach each Jew how to learn to apply Torah as Moses did are long gone. There is no need for a central judging system of this type and hasn’t been since people began being raised under Mosaic Law. A person can still and will still contact a rabbi with any difficult question, even in Post-rabbinical Judaism.

 

[rcwitness]

No problem. I understand where you are coming from.

First, there is no central authority in Judaism. Each branch (Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, etc.) and even individual Jews within as well as those who consider themselves Post-denominational or Post-rabbinic Jews make decisions on how to apply Torah (the Mosaic Law) with autonomy.

The events in Scripture where Moses was deciding things for the people of Israel and then had to share this responsibilities deals with an unrepeated era in Jewish history. The Mosaic Law was new. No one knew all its demands. No Hebrew was raised from childhood trained in being a Jew according to the Law.

So when questions and problems arose, the people had to go to Moses in order to learn how to live the Law. There were no printing presses or smart phones or iPads to “Google” the answers. There were no copies of the Law or Bibles or compendiums of Torah. People had to go to the only source there was, Moses, to learn how to live according to the Law. All of this changed as people learned the Law, taught it to their children, and eventually settled in the Promised Land with a centralized worship system set in place.

I have heard for many years how some Christians mistake Jesus’ reference to the “seat of Moses” in Matthew’s Gospel to this event and claim that this was some sort of “office.” Because Gentile Christians have little to no exposure to the Jewish world Jesus lived in, they often have little resort but to make such assumptions on their own despite the fact that study Bibles and commentaries will let them know what the “seat of Moses” actually is.

The days of having to teach each Jew how to learn to apply Torah as Moses did are long gone. There is no need for a central judging system of this type and hasn’t been since people began being raised under Mosaic Law. A person can still and will still contact a rabbi with any difficult question, even in Post-rabbinical Judaism.

Hmmm… well then, if Jesus’ reference to the “seat of Moses” was not directly related to Exodus 18, then we are back to relying on “a Tradition” not explicit in Scripture He held as binding on the people?

 

[rcwitness]

Haydock commentary on Matthew 23 vs 2:

Verse 2

The Scribes.They, who professed the greatest zeal for the law of Moses, and gloried in being the interpreters of it, sat upon the chair of Moses, succeeded to his authority of governing the people of God, of instructing them in his law, and of disclosing to them his will. Such, therefore, as did not depart from the letter of the law, were called Scribes. But such as professed something higher, and separated themselves from the crowd, as better than the ordinary class of men, were calledPharisees,which signifies, separated. (Origen) — God preserveth the truth of the Christian religion in the apostolic See of Rome, which in the new law answers to the chair of Moses, notwithstanding the disedifying conduct of some few of its bishops. Yes, though a traitor, as vile as Judas himself, were a bishop thereof, it would not be prejudicial to the integrity of the faith of God’s Church, or to the ready obedience and perfect submission of sincere good Christians, for whom our Lord has made this provision, when he says:do that which they say, but do not as they do.(St. Augustine, Ep. clxv.)

 

[CeelosDeznos]

Hmmm… well then, if Jesus’ reference to the “seat of Moses” was not directly related to Exodus 18, then we are back to relying on “a Tradition” not explicit in Scripture He held as binding on the people?

Jesus is merely saying that since the scribes or Jewish Law experts and the Pharisees have taken it upon themselves to teach to the people, therefore his disciples of the time should be obedient to what they teach.

This came with the warning: “Do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you, but do not follow their example. For they preach [the Law] but they do not practice [it].”–Matthew 23:2-3.

Another way to translate the verse is: “Since the scribes and the Pharisees have taken it upon themselves to teach from the almemar, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you…”

“Seat of Moses” is just a synonym for the almemar, the platform from which Jewish Scripture is read and taught. That is all it is.

The Greek reads: EPI TEES MOISEOS KATHEDRAS EKATHISAN

Literally it means “Upon the Moses chair placed…”

The last word, EKATHISAN, translated usually as “sat” as in “upon Moses seat they have sat” or “placed” themselves, means in the Greek “appointed.”

This is not literal speech, as if there is a literal chair being spoken of or an office held by anyone. If it was how can all the “scribes and Pharisees” get to sit on it at once? Did they take turns sitting on it in order to claim such authority? If it was an office, what kind of office is shared by all of them, especially if they disagreed with one another as much as we know they did. Of course this is not a literal reference.

Jesus is just saying that since these men hold the positions of authority, positions they have appointed themselves to or “sat” themselves in, this is not a reason to avoid following their direction. They are still teaching the Word of God, the Law of Moses. One was to follow their teachings, but not in the way they lived them out.

That the Jewish Christians did just so, Acts 21:20-21 states. There were “many thousands of believers…from among the Jews, and they are all zealous observers of the law.” Jewish Christians observed the Mosaic Law, passed it on to their Christian children, circumcised their Christian sons, etc. They obeyed the Law as taught by the Jewish teaches, but they did so following the direction of Jesus.

The “seat of Moses” is just a reference in passing however. Jesus was just explaining that these leaders are the ones they see preaching on the Sabbath and because God allowed them to exercise their position as they did, their teaching of the Law was valid–just not their example.

 

[CeelosDeznos]

Haydock commentary on Matthew 23 vs 2:

Verse 2

The Scribes.They, who professed the greatest zeal for the law of Moses, and gloried in being the interpreters of it, sat upon the chair of Moses, succeeded to his authority of governing the people of God, of instructing them in his law, and of disclosing to them his will. Such, therefore, as did not depart from the letter of the law, were called Scribes. But such as professed something higher, and separated themselves from the crowd, as better than the ordinary class of men, were calledPharisees,which signifies, separated. (Origen) — God preserveth the truth of the Christian religion in the apostolic See of Rome, which in the new law answers to the chair of Moses, notwithstanding the disedifying conduct of some few of its bishops. Yes, though a traitor, as vile as Judas himself, were a bishop thereof, it would not be prejudicial to the integrity of the faith of God’s Church, or to the ready obedience and perfect submission of sincere good Christians, for whom our Lord has made this provision, when he says:do that which they say, but do not as they do.(St. Augustine, Ep. clxv.)

Haydock Commentary comes from 1859. While what it taught was valid at the time, the Church admits that discoveries and scholarship since then have called for corrections.

For instance, the Dead Sea Scrolls were not discovered until after World War II ended in the mid-20th century. Details regarding Scriptural languages which have come to light, as well as practices of the Jews written therein and discovered in archaeological digs have only increased the views Catholics once had in 1859. Divino Afflante Spiritu called for correcting our views due to what has been learned from modern discoveries.

The Haydock Commentary is no longer as precise as it once was considered. It was the best for its time, but one must keep up with the Church and the directives of the Holy See on how we must be ready to update our views inline with solid scholarship.

Also, though quoting from an authorized publication can have its place, it cannot in the end settle an issue. An “argument from authority” only works if what the authority states can be verified by a disinterested party.

In this case, one can merely go to a rabbi and see that I am telling the truth. There is no such office as the “seat of Moses.” Here, in fact is an article with pictures of an ALMEMAR, the “seat of Moses” at issue.

 

[CeelosDeznos]

I would like to add that what I wrote doesn’t mean there was never a literal place that was viewed as a special seat to pass judgment based upon the Law of Moses.

The Sanhedrin, for example, the high court in Jerusalem, acted as such a “seat,” though it was not a formal office, per se. It was merely the “seat” of exercised authority based on the Law.

There have been synagogue “seats” found through archaeological discoveries that suggest that Jesus may have had in mind the use of one of these chairs to make authoritative judgments based on Mosaic Law, such as would become Oral Tradition. But again this is not in reference to an “office of oversight” such as that held by the High Priest.

 

[benhur]

Do you think 2 Thess. 2:15 is referring to “traditions” or “Traditions”, or both?

Do you think the “traditions” spoken of by Paul that were by “word of mouth” became Scripture at some point, or could they possibly have existed outside of Scripture and been passed along in the “Church”?

I am sure you prefer to use Henry’s commentary, as it see’s things more through a Protestant lens.

Hi j,

I suppose primarily a capital T in that it was the oral gospel. Some practices/tradition might be included such as found in Acts where they met on Sunday, though could meat all other times as well…

I think Barnabus agrees with P lens. "

“It is well, that he who is learned of the Lord’s judgements, as many as have been written, should walk in them.”

Blessings