Traditional Catholic Hymns

[CallistusPM]

When I attend a Novus Ordo service, I notice that they either sing hymns that I am not fanmiliar with or they sing popular Protestant hymns. I have no objction to these Protestant hymns; some I find quite lovely BUT what really hurts me is the dearth of Catholic hymns from my youth. I am deeply aggrieved and often feel betrayed by the modern church since Vatican II. Where are the hymns of the St. Basil Hymnal and the St. Cecelia Hymnal taught by the good sisters in Catholic schools of the past? I am not referring to Latin hymns, either. Yes, perhaps I could experience the hymns of my youth at a traditional Mass but they are few and far between where I live. What is so wrong with these beautiful hymns that HMC expunged them?

 

[I_Fortuna]

i do have objections to protestants songs in the CC. the hymns are prayers cantata. how we pray determines how we believe. since protestants do not believe as we believe, we have a big problem here. the protestants music in the Church has done great damage to the Mass. can anyone see that?

I understand how you might feel, however, when I converted about 2 years ago to RCC I thought I had walked into a protestant church. It was less Catholic than the Anglican church I came from. Since Anglicans are a Catholic Protestant church they have a more Catholic Mass is would seem than the RCC.

In addition, their hymns are really splendid and I miss them a lot. Some of the best hymns were written by Martin Luther and you will noit see those in the Catholic Hymnal.
I like the more traditional hymns too and what they are using now is often terrible and off key.

It is my understanding that in the early days of the church there were no hymns at all. Is that correct?

 

[CallistusPM]

Since tomorrow ushers in the month of Mary, let me be more specific. Listed here are just the hymns we sang in the pre-Vatican church honoring the Mother of God. I have not heard them in any Novus Ordo service I have attended. Perhaps a few are still sung, here and there but for the most part, they have disappeared from the new hymnals. Perhaps some of you recall them from the yearly May Processions (now an anachronism.)
Ave Maria Bright and Pure,
Children of Mary,
Hail, Queen of Heaven
Mary, Dearest Mother
Mother, At Your Feet Is Kneeling,
Mother Dear, O Pray For Me,
Mother Of Christ,
O Queen Of The Holy Rosary,
On This Day, O Beautiful Mother,
Our Lady Of Good Council,
Queen Of The May,
Star Of The Sea,
The Sun Is Shining Brightly,
'Tis The Month Of Our Mother,
Mother Beloved,
Star Crown Virgin,

 

[Palomas]

oh how beautifull. thank you. this brings me back to my Faith the Catholic faifh.
this is very appropriate to our times. there is a reason why we should bring this back into the Church, one never gets tired of listen to it. not so with these modern songs, it is very tiresome after you hear on one sunday, you sure dont want hear next sunday again.

I couldn’t agree with you more.

 

[roadsend]

…What is so wrong with these beautiful hymns that HMC expunged them?

HMC did not expunge them.
Greed on the part of of the publishing houses coupled with laziness on the part of those responsible for parish music programs are the main culprits for the disappearance of Catholic sacred music in so many of our churches.

 

[Bluegoat]

In addition, their hymns are really splendid and I miss them a lot. Some of the best hymns were written by Martin Luther and you will noit see those in the Catholic Hymnal.
I like the more traditional hymns too and what they are using now is often terrible and off key.

It is my understanding that in the early days of the church there were no hymns at all. Is that correct?

Martin Luther does make the cut - I once sang “A Mighty Fortress is Our God” at the Catholic Cathedral in my city - it was in the hymnal. It is one of my favorites, so I was quite pleased - and I think it is far more doctrinally sound, from a Catholic POV, than most of the “songs” sung in Catholic churches these days.

I am no expert, but I think it depends on what you mean by hymns. There was sung liturgy from early on, so one can see a 5th century "hymn’ like Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silence. It was actually part of the text of the liturgy. I believe that the music in the Eastern Orthodox Church follows this pattern today.

A hymn is really just a prayer, set to music. The hymns we have today then are prayers which are meant to be sung by the congregation. The text should be suitable to the liturgical calendar and occasion, and the music suitable to the occasion and ability of the congregation.

But the most basic and always appropriate music is to sing the liturgy itself.

 

[CallistusPM]

I understand how you might feel, however, when I converted about 2 years ago to RCC I thought I had walked into a protestant church. It was less Catholic than the Anglican church I came from. Since Anglicans are a Catholic Protestant church they have a more Catholic Mass is would seem than the RCC.

In addition, their hymns are really splendid and I miss them a lot. Some of the best hymns were written by Martin Luther and you will noit see those in the Catholic Hymnal.
I like the more traditional hymns too and what they are using now is often terrible and off key.

It is my understanding that in the early days of the church there were no hymns at all. Is that correct?

 

[CallistusPM]

Early church hymns were melodies to which psalms and parts of the liturgy such as the sanctus were chanted. This, of course came down to us from synagogue chanting.(see The Mass, Adrian Fortescue.)
And, yes, the High Anglican/Epsicopal Church retains most of the traditional liturgy than does the Novus Ordo, which is decidedly more main line Protestant in almost every aspect . BUT, one must keep in mind that the Anglican/Epsicopal Church lost the line of Apostolic Succession when they removed certain traditional, orthodox rituals and no longer mention in their rite “the power to offer sacrifice.” Pope Leo XIII decreed this in 1896.
It was interesting to me when I learned from one of my high school nuns that she and a sister companion, when traveling, went to confession in what they thought was a Catholic Church. Everything she related was Roman Catholic but she did hesitate while in the booth and the priest said: “You do not have to tell me if you do not wish to.” She knew then this was the wrong church!

 

[CallistusPM]

HMC did not expunge them.
Greed on the part of of the publishing houses coupled with laziness on the part of those responsible for parish music programs are the main culprits for the disappearance of Catholic sacred music in so many of our churches.

 

[CallistusPM]

I find this hard to accept. Parishes already had the traditional music when the Novus Ordo took over. It was well established and familiar to most. To incorporate Protestant hymns would, it seems to me, further involve publishing houses, copyrights, etc. OR would one really need permission from a Protestant publishing house to use a Protestant hymnal at a Novus Ordo service? Maybe I am wrong; I am not a copyright/patent lawyer.
I remember at my aunt’s “Mass of Christian burial” the priest entered the church and the congregation sang “Amazing Grace,” a beautiful hymn BUT . . . . well, you know the rest. Needless to say, I was crest fallen.

 

[Elizium23]

I find this hard to accept. Parishes already had the traditional music when the Novus Ordo took over. It was well established and familiar to most. To incorporate Protestant hymns would, it seems to me, further involve publishing houses, copyrights, etc. OR would one really need permission from a Protestant publishing house to use a Protestant hymnal at a Novus Ordo service? Maybe I am wrong; I am not a copyright/patent lawyer.

The point is that old music doesn’t make any money. In order to keep draining money out of parishes, the music publishing houses need to come up with new copyrightable hymns. This means they have to find them somewhere, and there aren’t enough Catholic songwriters to keep up with demands, so material is drawn from Protestant and Evangelical sources.

 

[roadsend]

The point is that old music doesn’t make any money. In order to keep draining money out of parishes, the music publishing houses need to come up with new copyrightable hymns. This means they have to find them somewhere, and there aren’t enough Catholic songwriters to keep up with demands, so material is drawn from Protestant and Evangelical sources.

Yup
And if you take the big one (OCP) and google up a few of their “artists, composers, etc”; you will find lots of non-Catholics, defrocked padres, and other rather different kinds of folks. Try googling *Trupia OCP * and then google Trupia Diocese of Tucson. Don’t do this on a full stomach and be warned, after doing this you might get the urge to run out of church when certain “songs” are sung.
Royalties from new music is where the money is at and you might be surprised who is getting your parish’s money.

 

[Bluegoat]

Yup
And if you take the big one (OCP) and google up a few of their “artists, composers, etc”; you will find lots of non-Catholics, defrocked padres, and other rather different kinds of folks. Try googling *Trupia OCP * and then google Trupia Diocese of Tucson. Don’t do this on a full stomach and be warned, after doing this you might get the urge to run out of church when certain “songs” are sung.
Royalties from new music is where the money is at and you might be surprised who is getting your parish’s money.

Wouldn’t it be nice if instead of giving money to pay for rather poor music it was spent on a good music director, or a nice organ, or even a choral bursary. Of course it is important to support composers or nothing would get written, but it is questionable to me whether there is enough good stuff to support a whole publishing house. By actually employing musicians it would also support new music in any case; after all some of the best stuff has been written for church musicians to play in the churches they work in.

 

[roadsend]

Wouldn’t it be nice if instead of giving money to pay for rather poor music it was spent on a good music director, or a nice organ, or even a choral bursary. Of course it is important to support composers or nothing would get written, but it is questionable to me whether there is enough good stuff to support a whole publishing house. By actually employing musicians it would also support new music in any case; after all some of the best stuff has been written for church musicians to play in the churches they work in.

Sounds great, but are there any Catholic churches that still use organs?