Traditional Catholic/Orthodox Catholic

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Do you associate the terms Orthodox Catholic or Traditional Catholic with the latin Mass or more with a strict observances of magisterial teachings, and traditions of the church? I tend to feel that neither is necessarily dependant on participation in the Latin Mass alone.
 
no I think they can be independent of one another. I consider myself a traditional/orthodox Catholic and I prefer the Eastern Churches not the Latin Church.
 
Being a traditional Catholic implies to me being attached to the Latin Mass, certain scapulars, devotions, prayers, catechisms, etc. However, a traditional Catholic can also not be an orthodox one. For instance, sedevacantists are not orthodox, yet they are certainly traditional Catholics.

Likewise, an orthodox Catholic is just someone who follows the teaching authority of the Church. Being an orthodox Catholic doesn’t mean you have to do any of the things traditional Catholics do. You could do nothing but go only to the Novus Ordo Mass, pray without a rosary, go to confession, and you would be an orthodox Catholic, so long as you accept everything in the CCC.

So not all orthodox Catholics are traditional, and not all traditional Catholics are orthodox. However, I consider myself to be a traditional and orthodox Catholic. 😉

God bless.
 
Hard to be a traditional Latin Rite Catholic and not support the TLM. Being in favor of rupture from tradition and a Mass made by committee doesn’t make one very traditional.

The Traditional Catholic’s Motto

We are what you once were.
We believe what you once believed.
We worship as you once worshiped.
If you were right then, we are right now.
If we are wrong now, you were wrong then.
 
thunderballs75 said:
sedevacantists are not orthodox, yet they are certainly traditional Catholics.
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Sedevacantists, because they do not acknowledge the Pope- who makes the Catholic Faith unique and has done so for many centuries, are neither traditional, nor are they Catholic

I consider myself an orthodox Catholic.I’m well-versed in the doctrines of the Church, and I believe and promote them. I like traditional Catholic music, art, architecture, and literature. I would consider myself a traditional Catholic, except I don’t care to go to the Latin Mass.
 
I consider myself traditional and orthodox. I like the Latin mass, but the one closest to me would cause me to miss my bible study at my parish. My parish has a beautiful NO mass and holds six of them, every Sunday, in three languages; not counting the Saturday vigil mass. As we only have two priests, this is a full schedule and even with diocesan approval, adding another would cause serious complications.

Being Catholic means submitting to the Pope in matters of morals and doctrines. The Vatican has decreed that the NO mass in the vernacular IS mass, and I see no problem with it.
 
phoage said:
I consider myself traditional and orthodox. I like the Latin mass, but the one closest to me would cause me to miss my bible study at my parish. My parish has a beautiful NO mass and holds six of them, every Sunday, in three languages; not counting the Saturday vigil mass. As we only have two priests, this is a full schedule and even with diocesan approval, adding another would cause serious complications.

Being Catholic means submitting to the Pope in matters of morals and doctrines. The Vatican has decreed that the NO mass in the vernacular IS mass, and I see no problem with it.
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What? What does this have to do with anything? I don’t think anyone is doubting the validity of the NO.
 
franklinf said:
What? What does this have to do with anything? I don’t think anyone is doubting the validity of the NO.
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The OP asked if the terms traditional and orthodox were related (in the opinion of the answering posts) to TLM. I was explaining why I do not believe they are.
 
phoage said:
The OP asked if the terms traditional and orthodox were related (in the opinion of the answering posts) to TLM. I was explaining why I do not believe they are.
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The validity of the NO doesn’t make it traditional. It is 40 years old and and was a rupture with tradition and the organic evolution of the liturgy. It isn’t traditional.
 
Yeah, the NO is not traditional. It is orthodox, but not traditional.
 
Hard to be a traditional Latin Rite Catholic and not support the TLM. Being in favor of rupture from tradition and a Mass made by committee doesn’t make one very traditional.
**Pope Pius V promulgated the Tridentine Missal after its codification by a special commission he appointed–a committee by any other name.

Or did you know that?

Furthermore, many Eastern Orthodox use the perfectly proper term “Orthodox Catholic.”**
 
To the original poster:

I think it depends on who you ask for the definitions. If you ask someone who attends only the Novus Ordo you will get different answers than from someone who attends only the Eastern rites or Tridentine Latin Rite Mass.

Most people who attend the Tridentine Mass primarily will identify a Traditional Catholic as someone who holds to the teachings as they were before Vatican II. This same group of people would most likely think of Eastern Orthodox when you ask about Orthodox. Most Catholics in this group would also assume that Eastern Orthodox are NOT Catholic, but are recognized as having valid apostolic succession.

The average Novus Ordo attendee would have no clue about 99% of what I just stated. There are a few, like the ones on this board, who would know the difference. Most average NO attendees though know very little to nothing about the history of their faith.

If you were to ask an Eastern Orthodox church memeber these same questions you would most likely get a completely different set of answers.

When you hear “Traditional Catholic” in the media, they are usually referring to those Catholics who hold to the teachings as they were before VII and who attend the Tridentine Mass.

Hope that helped and without the polemics.
 
I agree with franklinf. When I think of orthodox, I tend to think of Eastern Rite Catholics.

My exposure with Byzantine folks has not been a very pleasant one. I have been verbally attacked by them at a conference and all I did was walk up to their table and asked if they had any literature that explained what a Byzantine Catholic was. The lady took one look at the crucifix I was wearing and attacked. Wow, was I ever stunned. Never said a word, I just walked away.

Ever since then I have stayed clear.

To each his own as they say.
 
bpbasilphx said:
Hard to be a traditional Latin Rite Catholic and not support the TLM. Being in favor of rupture from tradition and a Mass made by committee doesn’t make one very traditional.
**Pope Pius V promulgated the Tridentine Missal after its codification by a special commission he appointed–a committee by any other name.

Or did you know that?

Furthermore, many Eastern Orthodox use the perfectly proper term “Orthodox Catholic.”**
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You can’t seriously be saying that is similar to Vatican 2. The Mass as codified at Trent was part of the gradual and organic evolution of the liturgy. Vatican 2 was consisted of a brand new Mass, a rupture with tradition, that was wrote by a committee. Completely different.

"In a letter to The Tablet, published on 24 July 1971, Father David Knowles, who was Britain’s most distinguished Catholic scholar until his death in 1974, pointed out that
Code: 
'The Missal of 1570 was indeed the result of instructions given at Trent, but it was, in fact, as regards the Ordinary, Canon, Proper of the time and much else a replica of the Roman Missal of 1474, which in its turn repeated in all essentials the practice of the Roman Church of the epoch of Innocent III, which itself derived from the usage of Gregory the Great and his successors in the seventh century. In short, the Missal of 1570 was, in all essentials, the usage of the mainstream of medieval European liturgy which included England and all its rites.'"
catholictradition.org/Eucharist/mass-history.htm
 
franklinf said:
You can’t seriously be saying that is similar to Vatican 2. The Mass as codified at Trent was part of the gradual and organic evolution of the liturgy. Vatican 2 was consisted of a brand new Mass, a rupture with tradition, that was wrote by a committee. Completely different.

"In a letter to The Tablet, published on 24 July 1971, Father David Knowles, who was Britain’s most distinguished Catholic scholar until his death in 1974, pointed out that
Code: 
'The Missal of 1570 was indeed the result of instructions given at Trent, but it was, in fact, as regards the Ordinary, Canon, Proper of the time and much else a replica of the Roman Missal of 1474, which in its turn repeated in all essentials the practice of the Roman Church of the epoch of Innocent III, which itself derived from the usage of Gregory the Great and his successors in the seventh century. In short, the Missal of 1570 was, in all essentials, the usage of the mainstream of medieval European liturgy which included England and all its rites.'"
catholictradition.org/Eucharist/mass-history.htm
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Can you tell me what’s not “Mainstream” in the Pauline mass when celebrated according to the rubrics?

Be specific.
 
bpbasilphx said:
Can you tell me what’s not “Mainstream” in the Pauline mass when celebrated according to the rubrics?

Be specific.
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I’m not quite sure what you mean by “mainstream.” In the paragraph I quoted, mainstream is used to demonstrate that the Mass as codified at Trent was essentially same as the previous version. The Novus Ordo is certainly not mainstream at the time of its release. The Novus Ordo is pretty different from the TLM.Ottaviani Intervention gives a pretty good summary.

fisheaters.com/ottavianiintervention.html
 
Where I come from, within the Roman Catholic community that attends Novus Ordo, we considered ourselves orthodox in that we upheld the Pope, the licit Novus Ordo and the teaching Magesterium of the Church.

There are about 22 rites in the Church. Orthodox can mean the Byzantine Orthodox, the Eastern Catholics; there are the Greek and Russian Orthodox that is not in unity with the Pope, but their sacraments are licit. If we can’t go to a Roman Catholic church where Mass is available, we can go to an Orthodox, but must identify ourselves to the pastor to receive permission to the sacraments in his church.
 
In agreement with brother bpbasilphx, Orthodox Catholic (with a capital “O”) normally refers to Eastern Christians (whether in communion with Rome or not). There are a few Eastern Catholics here who have “Orthodox Catholic” in their religion designation. Those not in communion with Rome and use the designation “Orthodox Catholic” do so with a sincere and deep self-understanding that they have maintained the Catholic Faith of the Fathers.

The more Eastern and Oriental Catholics become more in touch with their Tradition (in keeping with the decades-long support of the Vatican for the Eastern and Oriental Catholics to recover their ancient Traditions bereft of Latinizations), I predict there will be more and more Eastern or Oriental Catholics who would add “Orthodox” in the self-understanding of their Faith as Catholics.

I myself translated to the Catholic communion from Oriental Orthodoxy and have always considered myself Orthodox, theologically and spiritually. As anyone can see in my religion designation, I am an Orthodox in communion with Rome (or, as it were, Orthodox Catholic).

Blessings.
 
katgee said:
Where I come from, within the Roman Catholic community that attends Novus Ordo, we considered ourselves orthodox in that we upheld the Pope, the licit Novus Ordo and the teaching Magesterium of the Church.

There are about 22 rites in the Church. Orthodox can mean the Byzantine Orthodox, the Eastern Catholics; there are the Greek and Russian Orthodox that is not in unity with the Pope, but their sacraments are licit. If we can’t go to a Roman Catholic church where Mass is available, we can go to an Orthodox, but must identify ourselves to the pastor to receive permission to the sacraments in his church.
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Keep in mind that the Novus Ordo is not one of the 22 rites of the Church, however; historically, the Roman Rite refers to the Tridentine Mass.
 
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