Traditional Catholic teaching does not support religious freedom?

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Let me put it this way. The Church teaches that each man has free will and because of that he is responsible for his actions. There is no merit in going to Mass unless you freely choose to do so, if someone binds you and forcibly drags you there is obviously no merit for you in that. That is because you are not choosing, with your free will, to participate in Mass or follow the teachings of the Church. You cannot really belong to a religion unless you choose, with your free will, to do so. Because of this there is a very true sense in which individuals have the freedom to choose their religion, it is a God-given freedom which is perfectly compatible with the Teachings of the Church. This much is clear. That still leaves the question of what the best way to get the most people to freely choose the Catholic religion, and there are all different sorts of opinions about this, but seeing as it is clearly a prudential matter, it is something that cannot be expected to have one absolute answer for everywhere and at all times. Prudential matters always depend on the particular circumstances at hand that one is dealing with. So, even still, the fact that in the past it was seen as more prudent to make the practice of other religions illegal does not necessarily mean that it is currently the most prudent. This is why I found the language in the syllabus of errors most interesting. It seems clear that even then they recognized that this is not a universal answer because it is a prudential decision, not a philosophical one.
 
Free will and liberty are not the same thing!

The point that Pope Leo XIII is trying to get across is that the permission for poeple to use their free will to choose evil (sin for instance), is actually not true liberty. Please read the entire encylical and the Pope shows your misconception of liberty. In fact it will answer most of your questions regarding all liberties and free will.

Yes the Church has always taught that we have free will, but it has never taught that we should use that free will to choose evil. To choose evil is actually slavery since we are doing something that goes against our reasoning and intellect. Christ said the truth shall set you free (i.e. Liberate you from the slavery of sin).

I am not saying that the Church is contradictory, only that Vatican II may have been wrong since at least three previous popes speak against religious liberty.

God bless
And the idea that the state should not dictate to its members every detail of their lives does not mean that each person will be at liberty (as used in this encyclical) to do whatever they want. That is my point. When people speak of religious liberty today, many of them do not mean liberty the way it was used in this encyclical. 🤷 But rather as a way of expressing the fact that they are not being coerced.
 
Let me put it this way. The Church teaches that each man has free will and because of that he is responsible for his actions. There is no merit in going to Mass unless you freely choose to do so, if someone binds you and forcibly drags you there is obviously no merit for you in that. That is because you are not choosing, with your free will, to participate in Mass or follow the teachings of the Church. You cannot really belong to a religion unless you choose, with your free will, to do so. Because of this there is a very true sense in which individuals have the freedom to choose their religion, it is a God-given freedom which is perfectly compatible with the Teachings of the Church. This much is clear. That still leaves the question of what the best way to get the most people to freely choose the Catholic religion, and there are all different sorts of opinions about this, but seeing as it is clearly a prudential matter, it is something that cannot be expected to have one absolute answer for everywhere and at all times. Prudential matters always depend on the particular circumstances at hand that one is dealing with. So, even still, the fact that in the past it was seen as more prudent to make the practice of other religions illegal does not necessarily mean that it is currently the most prudent. This is why I found the language in the syllabus of errors most interesting. It seems clear that even then they recognized that this is not a universal answer because it is a prudential decision, not a philosophical one.
Correct, the Church clergy would never push for other religions to be “illegal” at this juncture in history. But it doesn’t mean it should push for religious liberty, which by definition means all religions are created equal, and no man should be coerced into one or another. The Catholic Church clergy should be preaching there is no true religious liberty since there is only one true Church. Again, Pope Leo XIII shows why religious liberty is actually no liberty at all!

God bless
 
And the idea that the state should not dictate to its members every detail of their lives does not mean that each person will be at liberty (as used in this encyclical) to do whatever they want. That is my point. When people speak of religious liberty today, many of them do not mean liberty the way it was used in this encyclical. 🤷 But rather as a way of expressing the fact that they are not being coerced.
I would agree the clergy point out the fact that no one should be coerced, but then they cowardly avoid this solemn teaching that there truly is no religious liberty! Sadly we have become a passive Church on some matters to “keep the peace”.

God bless
 
Correct, the Church clergy would never push for other religions to be “illegal” at this juncture in history. But it doesn’t mean it should push for religious liberty, which by definition means all religions are created equal, and no man should be coerced into one or another. The Catholic Church clergy should be preaching there is no true religious liberty since there is only one true Church. Again, Pope Leo XIII shows why religious liberty is actually no liberty at all!

God bless
And this is exactly what I am contesting and asked you to prove, that the words ‘religious liberty’ always implies that all religions are equal. My understanding of the notion of religious liberty as talked about today is that which I have explained here and you just agreed with. This is what most Catholics who speak about religious liberty mean by the term. Its just the common use for it.

**EDIT: **So when people complain about ‘religious liberty’ being contrary to traditional Catholic thought what they are saying usually does not apply to those currently talking about religious liberty. They are mislead because of the equivocation of the words ‘religious liberty’ but their criticism is still (usually) wildly misplaced. 🤷
 
I would agree the clergy point out the fact that no one should be coerced, but then they cowardly avoid this solemn teaching that there truly is no religious liberty! Sadly we have become a passive Church on some matters to “keep the peace”.

God bless
The reason they don’t preach against it is beccause nowadays people use the term to mean something different than before, language changes, concepts don’t. 🤷
 
By the way, I have been ttaught, from many different sources, that the Catholic Church is the one true Church, this isn’t something that is being ‘cowardly ignored’ by todays priests as you claim. Sure, by some of them, but there have always been, and there always will be, imperfect priests. Yes, the state of catechesis is really not good, but it is improving.
 
I’m a tad late but Free Speech is a big issue to me so I’ll add my two-cents. 🙂

“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”

What that means, to me, is that all religions are to treated equally under the law so that they can argue and persuade in the open and public sphere that their religion is the right one.
Christians and Jews can argue over whether or not Christ is the messiah and Catholics and Protestants can argue over whether or not the Catholic Church is the true church. Let the best idea win. Lay and clergy can (or should be able to) debate and argue that their belief is the right one.

And even if you are right, you will lose some arguments. If you do, find out why you lost. Are you wrong or was there a weakness in your argument that needs to be worked on. Its hard to find out what those weaknesses are if you stifle debate.

The biggest threat to free speech, right now, is the idea that you shouldn’t make certain arguments if they “offend” someone. It is notoriously prevalent on college campuses in the form of speech codes (despite losing every court case in which it is tested).
 
This is a complex topic. It needs to be understood what was actually being condemned in the 19th century and what is actually being promoted in the 20th by the Church.

In the 19th century, the Pope intervened on this issue as the Church was concerned with two things being promoted. One was the idea that reason trumped faith and thefore faith had no binding force on conscience. Man was therefore free before God and Church to believe whatever he decided to be most reasonable. This is false and is religious indifferentism, as the true doctrine is man has a duty to embrace and follow the true religion. Man does not have a right before God to commit any sin, or to profess a false religion (cf. CCC 2108).

Second, as a fruit of this erroneous thought, some argued that the state could not put any limits whatsoever on any activity deemed religions. They argued man had a a right to an absolute freedom to do whatever he deemed acceptable. This was called “insanity” because it would lead to the destruction of a well-ordered society.

These things were condemned and still are. The other side of this erroneous coin cropped up with the Communist states that did the opposite–they restricted all religious activity for no good reason.

The Catholic doctrine on religious liberty is more balanced. The Church has always acknowledged that man has a duty to believe and act according to the true religion, but that such faith must be a matter of free and uncoerced determiniation, otherwise it is not true faith. In addition, the state has a duty to protect the common good and defend the natural law. Where false religious activity harms these things, the state may intervene (cf. CCC 2109).

The Catholic doctrine on religious liberty can therefore be summed up like this: man has the right to be free from coercion by the state in religious matters, within the limits of the common good and the objective moral order. To say that this freedom must be absolute and unlimited was condemned in the 19th century and to say that the state could suppress religious activity when the common good and objective moral order was not harmed was condemned in the 20th.

A couple things should be noted: whether or not a state is or should be a confessional state is a different discussion. These principles apply either way. Likewise, a lot of the rhetoric about the Kingship of Christ is misplaced: His Kingship is not violated by the Catholic idea of religious liberty if such a limited liberty is one of His, and therfore His Church’s, doctrines. Such a liberty being granted would therefore respect His Kingship, not violate it. This doctrine also does not mean the state cannot promote the true religion in public, non-coercive ways. Nor does it mean we should not infuse Chrstianity into our laws (cf. CCC 2105).

Second, the Church may coerce the Baptized in religious matters. This was affirmed by the Council of Trent (Canons on Baptism 8 and 14 ) and is found in the current Code of Canon Law (Canons 1311 and 1312; note these canons refer to the Christian faithful, which are defined elsewhere as the baptized cf. canon 204)).

Finally, the Syllabus of Bl. Pius IX is often thrown around rashly by the ignorant. The Pope himself called it raw meat that needed to be cooked. It’s doctrinal value lies in the documents it lists and points to, and that is it. They must be referenced to understand the meaning and wieght of each proposition.

See Bl. John Henry Newman here:
newmanreader.org/works/anglicans/volume2/gladstone/section7.html

See also Newman on the encyclical Quanta Cura (which also addresses the oft-quoted part of Mirari Vos repeated in Quanta Cura):
newmanreader.org/works/anglicans/volume2/gladstone/section6.html
 
Not to throw the thread into a tangent, but, is monarchy (regardless if it offends American sensibilities) more conducive to the fulfillment of moral obligations on the Church’s part as well as the common people’s?
You mean when monarchies allowed the authorities to arrest people on the grounds they had broken Church laws? I think it was very conducive to the growth of Protestentism. After all, I know I wouldn’t love a particular religion whose followers were arrested and imprisoned because they violated Church laws. 🤷
 
You mean when monarchies allowed the authorities to arrest people on the grounds they had broken Church laws? I think it was very conducive to the growth of Protestentism. After all, I know I wouldn’t love a particular religion whose followers were arrested and imprisoned because they violated Church laws. 🤷
The Church to this day claims the right to inflict even temporal penalties on her members:

vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P4U.HTM

What’s the difference between violating the state’s law and being imprisoned in a prison and violating Church law and being imprisoned in a monastic cell? In both cases, it is a society punishing an offender of that societies laws by depriving the person of their temporal liberty. Prisons aren’t called “penitentiaries” for nothing.

Anyway, the early Protestant governments were just as–if not more–severe at enforcing ecclesiastical law.

I think the reason you have a revulsion to such things is merely the culture we are immersed in. In the past, basically all the members of one society–the state–were also members of the other society–the Church–so much so that they practically formed one single society (“Christendom”). It would not be uncommon for the state to act on behalf of the Church, since the people making up the state were fully incorporated into the Church. With the breakdown of religious unity, these two societies ceased to be identical and such action became unjustifiable from a jurisdictional standpoint (the state no longer fell within the Church’s jurisdiction completely or even at all, as it had before).
 
A Facebook friend shared an image that displayed Cardinal Timothy Dolan and a quote of his, “Religious freedom is the lifeblood of the American people, the cornerstone of American government.”

In the comment thread, a person, who judging by his profile appears to be a Catholic, said:

“Here’s the thing, this is actually contrary to Traditional Catholic teaching. The church does not believe in religious liberty for all. Rather, the church maintains that all gov’t has the moral obligation to recognize Christ as King and to have laws in place to safeguard true faith and morals.”

Which magisterial documents or writings of Catholic theologians of the past, is he alluding to, that favorably speak of theocracy?
The CC teaches that we must be true to our consciences, that no one has the right to force anyone else to believe a particular way, regardless of how right that way may be.
 
In my opinion, a benevolent monarchy (a true, Catholic monarchy) is the best form of government. You have persistent laws that are not subject to change every four years, a ruler who’s goal is truly the welfare of his people, and a built in system of protection (assuming we’re operating on the feudal-era system of monarchy).

The reason that is has such a bad connotation is because the rulers generally weren’t benevolent.

If we were lead by a Catholic king who stuck to Catholic moral teaching then yes, it would most definitely be better for us spiritually.
i totally agree!
 
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