"Traditional" Catholic?

[Catholic_Dude]

(My stuff in blue)

EENS:

When exactly did Luther think it was his duty to save the Church?
Thats how prots act. They think they are the last apostle preserving the truth. So sspx doesnt act like that?

I am not an SSPXer, but I question the logic of this post.What? You didnt even rebut the heart of the post which was that the CC can never allow sspx to be reconciled. And second of all that they went on ordaining people knowing full well what was right and wrong.
Can someone not say the Pope is a valid Pope but criticize what he does? Sure, but dont go saying how great he is and then put daggers in his back. ie stop pretending that God placed him there, but secretly deep down know that he doesnt belong there. For example, just because I believe John Paul II to be Pope, does that mean I must accept the outrageous and sacrilegious Assisi “service”, as well as his kissing of the satanic book, the koran? Must I, therefore, accept, too, the New Mass without question, without criticism, as if all other Rites pale in comparision to it? Criticize all you want. At the end of the day we are nobodys and have no influence on the CC, they do what they want. Ought I accept that his view on the death penalty is the authentic teaching of the Church based on Tradition, simply because he believes it? This sort of reasoning is completely ridiculous, as there are hundreds of Popes before our current Pope who contradict him on all of these issues.Your making a hay day out of stuff I never said. Who is right; 100 Popes or the current Pope, especially considering the current Pope’s reasoning is shoddy? Here is what kills me. How am I supposed to accept the fact that God put an ill qualified man in office? How? As I said, I am not SSPX, but your reasoning for calling them schismatic is simply illogical.Again you missed the heart of the post and went off on a tangent

The Society of Saint Pius X professes filial devotion and loyalty to Pope John Paul II, the Successor of Saint Peter and the Vicar of Christ. The priests of the Society pray for His Holiness and the local Ordinary at every Mass they celebrate

sspx.org

Look at the references in any of his encyclicals; see the preponderance of the Second Vatican Council and its teachings. The gravity of this situation lies in the fact that Vatican II actually favors heresy

Pope John Paul II is preaching a new religion

In this we cannot follow this Pope’s ideas but must hold fast to the doctrine constantly taught by the Church of all time.

It is not for us to judge his culpability in the destruction of the Church

nor is it for us to judge him juridically —the Pope has no superior on earth —or to declare unquestionably null all his
acts

So JP2 is either an ignorant dumb nut whom God allowed to destroy the Church, or He is guided by satan and sits in the Chair of Peter, or he is the leader and does what he wants when he wants. I dont see any way around this issue. Criticize him all you want, but dont go saying “His Holyness” and what not.
I am a all or nothing Catholic. I go with what the CC says. Im not a blind follower, just realistic. I dont halfway it so my feelings and personal rights get in the way.

 

[Darrel]

So JP2 is either an ignorant dumb nut whom God allowed to destroy the Church, or He is guided by satan and sits in the Chair of Peter, or he is the leader and does what he wants when he wants. I dont see any way around this issue. Criticize him all you want, but dont go saying “His Holyness” and what not.
I am a all or nothing Catholic. I go with what the CC says. Im not a blind follower, just realistic. I dont halfway it so my feelings and personal rights get in the way.

I totally agree with this loyalty. As pope he is the leader of the entire Christian world. I have maybe 27 people that work for me. I can’t make them all happy all of the time. How can the Pope make everyone happy all of the time?

It is not my job if I disagree with JP2 to go out and start my own little thing that is comfortable for me. It is my job to remain ever loyal to that which God has established on Earth and that includes loyalty to the Pope (period).

Two marines may not agree on every little thing but they will fight in the same war and remain loyal to the corp. above all. What right do we have to be any different? Revolution and dissention will not prevail any more than the gates of hell will.

-D

 

[Maranatha]

It seems to be that Radical Traditionalists are very proud to be authentic Catholics.

I’d like to be a Radical Traditionalist but I struggle too much with Pride already.

 

[bear06]

Maranatha:

It seems to be that Radical Traditionalists are very proud to be authentic Catholics.

I’d like to be a Radical Traditionalist but I struggle too much with Pride already.

 

[Jimmy_B]

Catholic Dude:

The word “traditional” doesnt mean what you think. Most of those guys are doing their own thing even if the CC doesnt allow it. Most of those groups are no better than Luther himself.

The might tempt you with some conservative lines, but if you look into the “movement” they miss the mark of the position they claim to hold.This movement is the most recent break off from the CC, similar to the Orthodox split.

I think this is the answer. I’m a “Roman Catholic”. Isn’t Mel Gibson a “traditional Catholic”?

 

[A.Pelliccio]

So the orthodox has vaild sacraments does that make our orthodox bretheren in some sort of lose “communion” with Rome. Because there is no salvation outside of Christ Church, are our orthodox brothers in communion with Rome just based on the fact that her sacraments are true? But then what about the schism? I just lost my grip on understading this issue.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

A.Pelliccio:

So the orthodox has vaild sacraments does that make our orthodox bretheren in some sort of lose “communion” with Rome. Because there is no salvation outside of Christ Church, are our orthodox brothers in communion with Rome just based on the fact that her sacraments are true? But then what about the schism? I just lost my grip on understading this issue.

They’re not outside. They’re in “sure, though imperfect” union with the Catholic Church. The same goes for our Protestant brethren who have been baptised with water by the Trinitarian formula. “Extra Ecclesium” has been done to death on these forums. The CCC is clear about this, EENS’s opinion and online name notwithstanding. I guess that makes me a neo-con. Here I thought I was just following the Catechism.

 

[challenger]

Maranatha:

It seems to be that Radical Traditionalists are very proud to be authentic Catholics.

I’d like to be a Radical Traditionalist but I struggle too much with Pride already.

In the same vein, are “Radical Catholics very proud to be authentic Christians”, and would you like to be a Radical Catholic, but struggle with pride too much already? Claiming truth does not necessarily equal pride.

 

[Exporter]

GB05:

A relative of mine attends a “Traditional Catholic” mass and has been inviting me to attend. My red flag went up when she said “the bishop is in town”.

At first I figured it was just a Latin Mass or something, but a friend tells me that “Traditional Catholic” means they do not follow Rome.

Can anyone give me information about this?

---

“a friend tells me” is a squishy statement. Who is the friend, what is that friend’s relation to Rome and then what does the word “traditional” mean?

In my experience I have not heard that a “traditional Catholic” Does Not give allegiance to or not follow Rome. I think that is a local colloquialism. I read three Catholic periodcals per month and traditional catholic has not yet been used to describe Catholic not faithful to Rome. Therefore I see the term as not being universal.

If someone asked me if I was A. Liberal, B. Conservative or a 3. traditional Catholic …I would say traditional. I am not Charismatic, a “walking on my knees penetant” or pro abortion poloitician. I am like they were in the 1950s. Traditioal is too all-inclusive. There are my two cents worth.

 

[Maranatha]

challenger:

In the same vein, are “Radical Catholics very proud to be authentic Christians”, and would you like to be a Radical Catholic, but struggle with pride too much already? Claiming truth does not necessarily equal pride.

If your revelation of truth counters that of the CC than I’ll pass on what you call being an authentic Christian.

I completely submit myself to Jesus Christ through the teachings of the Pope and Magisterium in matters of doctrine, accounts and customs. I trust in the guidance of the Holy Spirit. I try to be meek (not proud), understanding that Holy Spirit has given me the Grace to have found and follow God’s full revelation.

 

[bear06]

Claiming truth does not necessarily equal pride.

Ahhhh, but does claiming truth mean you actually possess it?

 

[challenger]

Maranatha:

If your revelation of truth counters that of the CC than I’ll pass on what you call being an authentic Christian.

I completely submit myself to Jesus Christ through the teachings of the Pope and Magisterium in matters of doctrine, accounts and customs. I trust in the guidance of the Holy Spirit. I try to be meek (not proud), understanding that Holy Spirit has given me the Grace to have found and follow God’s full revelation.

Traditional Catholics are just trying to submit themselves to customs, as well. However, they are following the “customs” of previous popes, customs which they feel are “better”. Everyone thinks their opinions are correct- if they didn’t, they wouldn’t hold those opinions. Unless someone is fragrantly prideful, I don’t think calling them proud is very nice.

 

[challenger]

bear06:
Ahhhh, but does claiming truth mean you actually possess it?

No, but that isn’t what is under discussion.

 

[TNT]

GB05
Started this thread as his 1st post 6 days ago. Never posted again.
Never even interacted with the thread.
Hasn’t even logged on since then.
Interesting…curious.

 

[bear06]

GB05
Started this thread as his 1st post 6 days ago. Never posted again.
Never even interacted with the thread.
Hasn’t even logged on since then.
Interesting…curious.

Maybe he/she isn’t distracted by bright, shiny objects like the rest of us! Once this pregnancy’s over and I can move again, I might disappear too!

 

[Maranatha]

challenger:

Traditional Catholics are just trying to submit themselves to customs, as well. However, they are following the “customs” of previous popes, customs which they feel are “better”. Everyone thinks their opinions are correct- if they didn’t, they wouldn’t hold those opinions. Unless someone is fragrantly prideful, I don’t think calling them proud is very nice.

I don’t believe Traditionalists are prideful. I think Radical Traditionalists are prideful. Actually, I believe being a Traditionalists is laudable. Sorry, if I caused any confusion.

 

[jimmy]

GB05:

A relative of mine attends a “Traditional Catholic” mass and has been inviting me to attend. My red flag went up when she said “the bishop is in town”.

At first I figured it was just a Latin Mass or something, but a friend tells me that “Traditional Catholic” means they do not follow Rome.

Can anyone give me information about this?

Hello GB05, and welcome.

The group you are refering to is the SSPX - The Society of St. Pius X. They follow Archebishop Marcel Lefebvre, who rejected the Novus Ordo mass as invalid. They are schismatics who claim to follow the authority of the pope but then do not follow the pope in reality.

That said, Traditional Catholic does not always refer to the SSPX. It could be the indult latin mass, which is perfectly fine to attend.

 

[challenger]

jimmy:

Hello GB05, and welcome.

The group you are refering to is the SSPX - The Society of St. Pius X. They follow Archebishop Marcel Lefebvre, who rejected the Novus Ordo mass as invalid. They are schismatics who claim to follow the authority of the pope but then do not follow the pope in reality.

That said, Traditional Catholic does not always refer to the SSPX. It could be the indult latin mass, which is perfectly fine to attend.

I am not a member of the SSPX, nor do I support them. However, instead of not following the pope, don’t they rather not think of the current pope as a pope at all? In which case, they would not be deliberately not following the pope.

 

[jimmy]

challenger:

I am not a member of the SSPX, nor do I support them. However, instead of not following the pope, don’t they rather not think of the current pope as a pope at all? In which case, they would not be deliberately not following the pope.

Hello challenger,

No, they accept pope John Paul II as the real pope. You are probably thinking of the sedevacantists. They are a seperate group that thinks the last real pope was Pope Pius XII. Some of them have elected there own popes recently, for example pope Michael or pope Pius XIII. The ones who have not elected a new pope are waiting for a true pope to take the seat in Rome.

The SSPX accept pope John Paul II but do not follow him. They reject Vatican II and the reject the new mass.

I personally love the Tridentine mass and go to it whenever I can, but you can not reject the new mass. It is just as valid as the old.

 

[rwoehmke]

EENS:

Building on the point of Exporter, Pope John It also concluded (all but one agreed) that the Traditional Mass was never abrogated (that is, it is still in force as a Mass of the Latin Rite).

That is correct. “A Mass” of the Latin Rite, but not the only one.