Traditional Catholicism and Genesis/Evolution

[PrayforMallory]

I was wondering about something.

Is it a general “trad” thing to deny evolution, and/or that Genesis contains a great deal of truth but might be figurative?

Don’t jump on me, please. I’m looking to see a discussion about this and nothing more.

 

[thistle]

I was wondering about something.

Is it a general “trad” thing to deny evolution, and/or that Genesis contains a great deal of truth but might be figurative?

Don’t jump on me, please. I’m looking to see a discussion about this and nothing more.

"In the Beginning…"
A Catholic Understanding of the Story of Creation and the Fall
excerpts from Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger (Pope Benedict XVI)

bringyou.to/apologetics/p81.htm

 

[Sarpedon]

From my very limited experience, I get the impression that traditionalists tend to think that they know better than respected authorities on a lot of things. They think they know better than the church in regards to the liturgy. They think they know better than the vast majority of scientists in regards to evolution (and sometimes geocentrism). They think they know better than highly educated medical doctors and get involved in alternative medicine and things of that sort.

This isn’t to say that authority is always right and should not be questioned. Sometimes the authorities are wrong. However, I think that questioning valid authorities sometimes gets carried to an extreme by traditionalists, resulting in things like the SSPX, geocentrism and alternative medicine.

I think that this phenomenom also carries over to evolution in many respects. Most traditionalists have no scientific training or experience, and are not in a position to evaluate evolution. Still, many oppose it despite this limitation. Ultimately, evolution doesn’t matter in regards to salvation. I think some opposition to this mostly theologically irrelevant theory comes from the desire of traditionalists to know things better than the rest of the world.

Perhaps this attitude of “knowing better than everyone else” could easily lead to a form of gnosticism.

 

[misterbee]

I’m a ‘Traddie’ and here’s my view - as both a devout Catholic and as a Biology major and as a Biology teacher.

Evolution happens. It’s been observed. The very basic definition of evolution is ‘change over time…’ Human feet are bigger than they were 100 years ago, just go walk up the stairs of a century-old house and see for yourself.

Trans-speciation is another question. Have organisms come from other organisms after a long amount of time? Probably. Has any of it happened without the hand of God? Nope.

The question, ‘Do you believe in evolution?’ is one of the inflammatory phrases in the debate. Evolution is not (or shouldn’t be) a religion. Scientific theories are not religion. Science is not religion. I fear people who believe in science.

I understand science, and I understand and ascribe to the theories derived by scientists (except for that gravity one, I rather prefer to float where I want to travel), but I don’t believe in science.

 

[buffalo]

** Catholic Traditon vs Science - are we looking deep enough**

 

[Saint_Gemma]

From my very limited experience, I get the impression that traditionalists tend to think that they know better than respected authorities on a lot of things. They think they know better than the church in regards to the liturgy. They think they know better than the vast majority of scientists in regards to evolution (and sometimes geocentrism). They think they know better than highly educated medical doctors and get involved in alternative medicine and things of that sort.

This isn’t to say that authority is always right and should not be questioned. Sometimes the authorities are wrong. However, I think that questioning valid authorities sometimes gets carried to an extreme by traditionalists, resulting in things like the SSPX, geocentrism and alternative medicine.

I think that this phenomenom also carries over to evolution in many respects. Most traditionalists have no scientific training or experience, and are not in a position to evaluate evolution. Still, many oppose it despite this limitation. Ultimately, evolution doesn’t matter in regards to salvation. I think some opposition to this mostly theologically irrelevant theory comes from the desire of traditionalists to know things better than the rest of the world.

Perhaps this attitude of “knowing better than everyone else” could easily lead to a form of gnosticism.

Why do you care whether or not someone thinks that geocentrism and young Earth creationism is true, as long as they do not think that those who do not think that those things are true are heretics? The Church has never proclaimed that the Earth goes around the Sun, or that Genesis is not to be understood literally.

 

[impalass]

Why do you care whether or not someone thinks that geocentrism and young Earth creationism is true, as long as they do not think that those who do not think that those things are true are heretics? The Church has never proclaimed that the Earth goes around the Sun, or that Genesis is not to be understood literally.

You say " Genesis is not to be understood literally" Then why believe anything in the bible? Thats why catholics are known as cafeteria catholics. They pick and choose books. poems from the bible some they believe some they don’t. They do this to fit their puzzle to make it work. Where does the fiction stop and where does the truth begin…NO ONE KNOWS!

You say “The church has never proclaimed the earth goes around the Sun” HELLO! YES IT DOES The earth rotates 1 revolution on its axes once every 24 hours, and rotates around the sun once a year…

 

[NicPais83]

You say " Genesis is not to be understood literally" Then why believe anything in the bible? Thats why catholics are known as cafeteria catholics. They pick and choose books. poems from the bible some they believe some they don’t. They do this to fit their puzzle to make it work. Where does the fiction stop and where does the truth begin…NO ONE KNOWS!

You say “The church has never proclaimed the earth goes around the Sun” HELLO! YES IT DOES The earth rotates 1 revolution on its axes once every 24 hours, and rotates around the sun once a year…

I don’t think she was saying that the Church has denied that the Earth does one thing or another, but that it leaves it up to science to do what science does. Technically, the Earth revolves around the sun 365.24… days, a little bit more than the average year.

Cafeteria Catholics are not necessarily Catholics in general. They’re the type that choose whether or not to believe in dogmas, the nature of sin, Church teachings. As for the Book of Genesis, Catholicism does not teach that the Bible is 100% literal. That is a Protestant belief. Catholicism does not teach that the world was literally made in 7 days. Catholicism DOES teach that there was one set of parents, Adam and Eve, and that they sinned, causing the stain of original sin.

As for evolution, I can’t speak for people like SSPX, but the Church sorta teaches that if it happened, then it is the method that God used, but that it does not mean that God didn’t create the soul, or that there was never an Adam or an Eve. I mean, if God created the world, doesn’t it make sense that He’d use the laws of Physics, Chem, Bio, to run things? Not that He has to, but He still did create them.

 

[thistle]

You say " Genesis is not to be understood literally" Then why believe anything in the bible? Thats why catholics are known as cafeteria catholics. They pick and choose books. poems from the bible some they believe some they don’t. They do this to fit their puzzle to make it work. Where does the fiction stop and where does the truth begin…NO ONE KNOWS!

You say “The church has never proclaimed the earth goes around the Sun” HELLO! YES IT DOES The earth rotates 1 revolution on its axes once every 24 hours, and rotates around the sun once a year…

So when Jesus said “if your right eye offends you, pluck it out and throw it away”, we have to take this literally?

The Church does not teach we have to take everything in the Bible literally.

By the way both geocentrism (earth at the centre of the universe) and heliocentrism (earth revolves around the sun) are theories. Although its the most accepted theory, scientists cannot prove the earth revolves around the sun. As Catholics we are allowed to believe either theory.

 

[NicPais83]

By the way both geocentrism (earth at the centre of the universe) and heliocentrism (earth revolves around the sun) are theories. Although its the most accepted theory, scientists cannot prove the earth revolves around the sun. As Catholics we are allowed to believe either theory.

Actually, considering how universal gravitation works, both the Earth and the Sun pull on each other; assuming that Newton’s Laws are valid. I think Einstein discussed something of the sort in terms of his theory of relativity. I wouldn’t toy too much with whether or not the Earth revolves around the sun or vice versa; we don’t want Earth to share the same fate as Pluto!

 

[Sarpedon]

Why do you care whether or not someone thinks that geocentrism and young Earth creationism is true, as long as they do not think that those who do not think that those things are true are heretics? The Church has never proclaimed that the Earth goes around the Sun, or that Genesis is not to be understood literally.

I don’t necessarily think there is anything wrong with this. All I wanted to comment on was a percieved tendency to doubt authority within traditional Catholicism, and how this carries over to evolution. If someone believes in creationism, they should do so for purely scientific reasons and not to buck the system.

 

[saint_rafael]

Evolution is the biggest nonsense in the history of the world. Evolution is in no way scientific. It is actually philosophy. It is the philosophy of atheistic materialism.

Genesis is literal. Pope Pius XII stated in Humanae Generis that Genesis pertains to history in a literal sense and that we all descended by a pair of original first parents.

I suggest everyone take a look at what Catholic creationist scientists have to say:

kolbecenter.org/

 

[PrayforMallory]

I don’t necessarily think there is anything wrong with this. All I wanted to comment on was a percieved tendency to doubt authority within traditional Catholicism, and how this carries over to evolution. If someone believes in creationism, they should do so for purely scientific reasons and not to buck the system.

If I had never been able to doubt other teachings of these “authorities” I never would have been able to stop being an atheist in the first place.

 

[thistle]

Actually, considering how universal gravitation works, both the Earth and the Sun pull on each other; assuming that Newton’s Laws are valid. I think Einstein discussed something of the sort in terms of his theory of relativity. I wouldn’t toy too much with whether or not the Earth revolves around the sun or vice versa; we don’t want Earth to share the same fate as Pluto!

I was simply making the point that neither is proven. Both are theories, albeit one largely accepted more than the other, and that we are allowed to believe either theory.

 

[Orogeny]

I’m a ‘Traddie’ and here’s my view - as both a devout Catholic and as a Biology major and as a Biology teacher.

Evolution happens. It’s been observed. The very basic definition of evolution is ‘change over time…’ Human feet are bigger than they were 100 years ago, just go walk up the stairs of a century-old house and see for yourself.

Trans-speciation is another question. Have organisms come from other organisms after a long amount of time? Probably. Has any of it happened without the hand of God? Nope.

The question, ‘Do you believe in evolution?’ is one of the inflammatory phrases in the debate. Evolution is not (or shouldn’t be) a religion. Scientific theories are not religion. Science is not religion. I fear people who believe in science.

I understand science, and I understand and ascribe to the theories derived by scientists (except for that gravity one, I rather prefer to float where I want to travel), but I don’t believe in science.

Well said.

Peace

Tim

 

[impalass]

So when Jesus said “if your right eye offends you, pluck it out and throw it away”, we have to take this literally?

The Church does not teach we have to take everything in the Bible literally.

By the way both geocentrism (earth at the centre of the universe) and heliocentrism (earth revolves around the sun) are theories. Although its the most accepted theory, scientists cannot prove the earth revolves around the sun. As Catholics we are allowed to believe either theory.

Thistle: You say “The church does not teach we have to take everything in the bible literally”…
Poll 1000 catholics at random about whats in the bible and you will get a lot of different beliefs/answers. That makes the bible today irrelevant. In a belief system consistency is extrememly important. So what you are saying is the bible has many fiction stories but what is fiction and what is real?

 

[impalass]

Well said.

Peace

Tim

Traditionally a belief in God was attractive because it promised to explain the deepest puzzles about origins. Where did the world come from? What is the basis of life? How can the mind arise from the body? Yet over the millennia thee has been an inexorable trend: the deeper we probe these questions, and the more we learn about the world in which we live, the less reason there is to believe in God.

Start with the origin of the world. Today no honest and informed person can maintain that the universe came into being a few thousand years ago and assumed its current form in 6 days to say nothing of absurdities like day and night existing before the sun was created. A lot of misinformation in Genesis and a lot of contradictions throughout the bible.

 

[Orogeny]

Traditionally a belief in God was attractive because it promised to explain the deepest puzzles about origins. Where did the world come from? What is the basis of life? How can the mind arise from the body? Yet over the millennia thee has been an inexorable trend: the deeper we probe these questions, and the more we learn about the world in which we live, the less reason there is to believe in God.

You are right, but speaking for myself, I find that the deeper we dig, the deeper my faith in God becomes.

Start with the origin of the world. Today no honest and informed person can maintain that the universe came into being a few thousand years ago and assumed its current form in 6 days to say nothing of absurdities like day and night existing before the sun was created. A lot of misinformation in Genesis and a lot of contradictions throughout the bible.

I don’t think there is any misinformation in Genesis. I think that if one reads that book literally, there are problems. But if one reads it as, say Pope Benedict does, there is nothing but truth there.

Peace

Tim

 

[Sarpedon]

If I had never been able to doubt other teachings of these “authorities” I never would have been able to stop being an atheist in the first place.

I’m not saying that you shouldn’t question authority, but that such questioning should be based on logic and not a desire to simply buck the system and be different or know it better than everyone else. I was making a very general psychological observation.

This happens a lot in homeschooling too. People think they can educate better than the establishment (which they probably do), and they want to better the establishment in a lot of other things as well. They think they can do medicine better than the establishment, and get involved in alternative medicine. They even get involved in home births because they seem to think they don’t need medical staff (seems risky to me).

Can they legitimately do these things better than the establishment? That’s the question, and I think the answer is sometimes yes and sometimes no. I think oftentimes people don’t really logically think about whether they really can or do know better than the establishment, which can result in risky or foolish things.

I think this attitude runs deep in the traditionalist movement as well. I think some traditionalists oppose evolution because they want to buck the system and be the “remnant”, so to speak.

 

[Sarpedon]

Evolution is the biggest nonsense in the history of the world. Evolution is in no way scientific. It is actually philosophy. It is the philosophy of atheistic materialism.

Not at all. Evolution only deals with the process by which life adapts to conditions, resulting in a change of form or structure. It says nothing about atheism, theism or materialism. Atheistic materialism is often foisted upon evolution, but this is not scientific.

Genesis is literal. Pope Pius XII stated in Humanae Generis that Genesis pertains to history in a literal sense and that we all descended by a pair of original first parents.

Read the “faith and science” section of the main website of Catholic Answers