Traditional Catholicism, Conservative Catholicism--Still in Union with the Pope?

[dumspirospero]

Hey everyone…this is a topic of the highest importance for me. I am a recent convert to Catholicism. It is the greatest decision that I have ever made. Being Catholic is the greatest feeling in the world. Here lately, I have been attending weekly the Tridentine Latin Mass, and I am intrigued by the Tridentine Latin Rite. I consider myself a conservative in both my political and Catholic lives. My real question is what parts of Traditional Catholicism is acceptable? I am totally against sedevancantism and I want to stay away from it totally…I have no use or respect for it…with that said, I would like to stay as traditional and conservative in my Catholic Faith as possible without overstepping the bounds of The Catholic Church. What parts of Traditional Catholicism am I allowed to follow and do so in accordance with the Pope and the teachings of the Church? THanks for any help I can get in this matter…no one I talk to seems to have any helpful info. They have told me basically there are two different groups of Traditional Catholics 1)The Traditionalist that hold on to some traditional practices and values, but they also don’t dispute the authority of the current Pope and are still in line with the Church 2) and the second group are sedevacantist which is forbidden. That is all they tell me…is that correct? I know there is more to it than that. COuld you please elaborate? Also, is it ok to be a Traditional Catholic, as long as you are in union with the Pope? THanks a lot in advance. I know this is a difficult question.

 

[Crusader]

dumspirospero:

Hey everyone…this is a topic of the highest importance for me. I am a recent convert to Catholicism. It is the greatest decision that I have ever made. Being Catholic is the greatest feeling in the world. Here lately, I have been attending weekly the Tridentine Latin Mass, and I am intrigued by the Tridentine Latin Rite. I consider myself a conservative in both my political and Catholic lives. My real question is what parts of Traditional Catholicism is acceptable? I am totally against sedevancantism and I want to stay away from it totally…I have no use or respect for it…with that said, I would like to stay as traditional and conservative in my Catholic Faith as possible without overstepping the bounds of The Catholic Church. What parts of Traditional Catholicism am I allowed to follow and do so in accordance with the Pope and the teachings of the Church? THanks for any help I can get in this matter…no one I talk to seems to have any helpful info. They have told me basically there are two different groups of Traditional Catholics 1)The Traditionalist that hold on to some traditional practices and values, but they also don’t dispute the authority of the current Pope and are still in line with the Church 2) and the second group are sedevacantist which is forbidden. That is all they tell me…is that correct? I know there is more to it than that. COuld you please elaborate? Also, is it ok to be a Traditional Catholic, as long as you are in union with the Pope? THanks a lot in advance. I know this is a difficult question.

1.) There is no such thing as a “Tridentine Latin Rite.” There is a Roman (or Latin) Rite within the Western Half of the Catholic Church that allows both the Novus Ordo Mass, and with an indult, the Mass in Latin based on the 1962 missal.

2.) Just what the heck is a “Traditional Catholic”? It’s certainly not a rite (or anything else for that matter) that is recognized by the Church. Sadly, it sounds like some sort of Protestant sect, where men choose what they wish to follow, rather than following the Church.

Words like “conservative” have little use in religion. “Orthodox” as in “orthodox Catholic” mean a great deal more. An “orthodox Catholic” would be following what the Church actually directs, and not what some man-made group concocted.

 

[dumspirospero]

First off…Thanks for the charity my fellow Catholic. I am new to the faith and may have some statements that aren’t exactly clear, but I am learning and trying, and I really do appreciate your help in this manner. First off…when I said Tridentine Latin Rite…I should have just said Latin Rite…but you should have understood what I was talking about. I am sorry I didn’t phrase it exactly like you would have wanted. Secondly, I shouldn’t have to explain what Traditional Catholicism is…but just incase you need a refresher course, this should help you out: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_Catholic I never said it was a rite…it is a type of worship and belief in the traditional teachings of the Church…traditionalist and conservative cling on to it, because it is the traditional teachings of the Church. The only RITE I referred to was the Latin Rite.

Finally, I beg to differ…I think the word conservative plays a great role in religion and other things in life. Someone that is liberal, is going to interpret the Church’s teachings different from conservatives and try to alter or change them to meet their newfound interpretation of things.

I was looking for credible and helpful responses…not criticism. Nice charity. Would someone…who is able to understand what I am asking, please answer my question without a lot of satire. Thanks

1.) There is no such thing as a “Tridentine Latin Rite.” There is a Roman (or Latin) Rite within the Western Half of the Catholic Church that allows both the Novus Ordo Mass, and with an indult, the Mass in Latin based on the 1962 missal.

2.) Just what the heck is a “Traditional Catholic”? It’s certainly not a rite (or anything else for that matter) that is recognized by the Church. Sadly, it sounds like some sort of Protestant sect, where men choose what they wish to follow, rather than following the Church.

Words like “conservative” have little use in religion. “Orthodox” as in “orthodox Catholic” mean a great deal more. An “orthodox Catholic” would be following what the Church actually directs, and not what some man-made group concocted.

 

[deogratias]

First can I ask you if the Traditional Latin Mass you attend (Tridentine as many of us call it ) is an Indult Mass or one at an SSPX Chapel?

This is important.

Traditional Catholics who are faithful to the Pope and Rome must also accept that the Ordo Missae is valid if properly celebrated.

A traditional Catholic may or may not attend a Traditional Latin Mass and

They may only attend Traditional Latin Masses so long as they are at an approved Mass (by Indult of the Bishop) - if in doubt about the one you attend, call the diocese office and they will tell you.

Otherwise you would be attending perhaps a Mass that is celebrated by a schismatic group.

Traditional Catholics do not deny the validity of Vatican II and its changes.

Traditional Catholics are obedient to the churches teachings, and when given valid choices, they usually go for the more conservative ones.

Traditional Catholics do not practice birth control or advocate abortion; do believe in fidelity in marriage, do not receive communion when in a state of grave sin, do not advocate women in the priesthood, do not approve of premarital sex or other liberal ideas contrary to church teaching.

Traditional Catholics do not practice cafeteria Catholicism.

This is the “true Traditional Catholic” there are others who claim to be traditionalists but who do not follow the current church teahings and so are as dissenting as those who advocate liberalism.

Hope that helps.

 

[dumspirospero]

Thanks so much for your (name removed by moderator)ut…it was very helpful…It was exactly what I was looking for. Yes…I accept the Ordo Missae and yes the TLM I attend is approved and a Indult Mass…no SSPX for me.

I am a traditionalist/conservative that only wants to stay faithful to the Pope and Rome, and you have helped me greatly in my quest to do so. I appreciate your time and words…they have helped me.

Thank you so much Degratias…you have shed light on a topic I was unclear about until now. Yes…I am a Traditional Catholic in every sense of the word…which is strange I guess, considering I am a recent convert

Thank you very much and God Bless you…I love this forum and I look forward to learning more on my ongoing journey of Faith.

deogratias:

First can I ask you if the Traditional Latin Mass you attend (Tridentine as many of us call it ) is an Indult Mass or one at an SSPX Chapel?

This is important.

Traditional Catholics who are faithful to the Pope and Rome must also accept that the Ordo Missae is valid if properly celebrated.

A traditional Catholic may or may not attend a Traditional Latin Mass and

They may only attend Traditional Latin Masses so long as they are at an approved Mass (by Indult of the Bishop) - if in doubt about the one you attend, call the diocese office and they will tell you.

Otherwise you would be attending perhaps a Mass that is celebrated by a schismatic group.

Traditional Catholics do not deny the validity of Vatican II and its changes.

Traditional Catholics are obedient to the churches teachings, and when given valid choices, they usually go for the more conservative ones.

Traditional Catholics do not practice birth control or advocate abortion; do believe in fidelity in marriage, do not receive communion when in a state of grave sin, do not advocate women in the priesthood, do not approve of premarital sex or other liberal ideas contrary to church teaching.

Traditional Catholics do not practice cafeteria Catholicism.

This is the “true Traditional Catholic” there are others who claim to be traditionalists but who do not follow the current church teahings and so are as dissenting as those who advocate liberalism.

Hope that helps.

 

[Panis_Angelicas]

Welcome dumspirospero!

The problem today is, the word “traditional” can have two connotations.

If you identify yourself merely as a “traditional” Catholic, people may misinterpret what you say, since the schismatics have also claimed that title.

The schismatic trads have thrown the baby out with the bathwater, clinging to traditions but denouncing the authority of the Church to make changes such as those of the Second Vatican Council.

So, those of us who cherish the Church’s traditions, along with her Sacred Traditions, would more likely refer to ourselves as traditional Roman Catholics (meaning that we are still totally loyal to Rome). We would avoid getting mixed up in the traditional movement which has placed traditions (small t) above Church authority, such as the sedevacantists, etc.

Hope this helps! (When in doubt, ask deogratias!!!)

 

[Fergal]

I would love to share with you a little gift I have used in times of turbulence. read the Holy Father’s encyclicals. They are a rich treasure for all orthodox Roman Catholics.
Traditionalist Catholics in the strict sense are not open to change and even go so far as to reject the Holy Father!!
Hold fast and remember Peter! you, like Peter have just stepped out onto the water with Christ. See Him in His Vicar on Earth i.e. the Holy Father. Cling fast to what he teaches. Take you eyes of the ball and you will start to sink fast, simply becuase there is so much turbulence.
Follow Jesus through Peter and the way although narrow will be calmed.
I would consider myself conservative but by its very nature and actual explaination I prefer to refer to myself as orthodox Roman Catholic. Simply folowing Rome on all matters, no matter what!!!

Conservative: opposed to radical change, moderate, cautious, one who keeps to traditional methods or views
Orthodox: Conforming to established, dominant, or official doctrine, conventional
These are the actual definitions from the dictionary. So maybe it might give you a greater sense of exactly where you see yourself.

Fergal

 

[cassman]

There are a couple of books on this subject as well as numerous articles on theweb.

Patrick Mardid is coming out with a book in Sept. called “More Catholic Than the Pope”

catalog.osv.com/Catalog.aspx

%between%

 

[deogratias]

I’m glad I could be of some help.

And a belated welcome to both the forum and The Catholic Churh.

 

[Veronica_Anne]

dumspirospero:

First off…Thanks for the charity my fellow Catholic. I am new to the faith and may have some statements that aren’t exactly clear, but I am learning and trying, and I really do appreciate your help in this manner. First off…when I said Tridentine Latin Rite…I should have just said Latin Rite…but you should have understood what I was talking about. I am sorry I didn’t phrase it exactly like you would have wanted. Secondly, I shouldn’t have to explain what Traditional Catholicism is…but just incase you need a refresher course, this should help you out: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_Catholic I never said it was a rite…it is a type of worship and belief in the traditional teachings of the Church…traditionalist and conservative cling on to it, because it is the traditional teachings of the Church. The only RITE I referred to was the Latin Rite.

Finally, I beg to differ…I think the word conservative plays a great role in religion and other things in life. Someone that is liberal, is going to interpret the Church’s teachings different from conservatives and try to alter or change them to meet their newfound interpretation of things.

I was looking for credible and helpful responses…not criticism. Nice charity. Would someone…who is able to understand what I am asking, please answer my question without a lot of satire. Thanks

Welcome to the board, dumspirito.

Um… when I read Crusader’s response (post #2 on this thread) I did NOT hear satire, at all. Crusader IMHO was giving you a sincere and loving response.

See… that’s the thing with message threads… without audible tones of voice people (like you and me) can hear something totally different from the same words.

I happen to agree with the points that Crusader was making. It’s extremely important to levelize on definitions of terms.

Especially when there are some Catholics who THINK that they’re being loyal to the Church when they call themselves “traditional” when, in fact, they are bordering on schism.

Me? I’m an cradle, orthodox, faithful, raving Catholic in total communion with Rome. I miss the Tridentine Mass (the one said in Latin and the priest’s back to the congregation) and would attend one from time to time if there was one celebrated with an indult anywhere near me.

In no way would I ever go to a Tridentine Mass (as described above) if it’s one of those SSPX ones.

Hope this helps?
:twocents: :bible1:

 

[Crusader]

dumspirospero:

First off…Thanks for the charity my fellow Catholic. I am new to the faith and may have some statements that aren’t exactly clear, but I am learning and trying, and I really do appreciate your help in this manner. First off…when I said Tridentine Latin Rite…I should have just said Latin Rite…but you should have understood what I was talking about. I am sorry I didn’t phrase it exactly like you would have wanted. Secondly, I shouldn’t have to explain what Traditional Catholicism is…but just incase you need a refresher course, this should help you out: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_Catholic I never said it was a rite…it is a type of worship and belief in the traditional teachings of the Church…traditionalist and conservative cling on to it, because it is the traditional teachings of the Church. The only RITE I referred to was the Latin Rite.

Finally, I beg to differ…I think the word conservative plays a great role in religion and other things in life. Someone that is liberal, is going to interpret the Church’s teachings different from conservatives and try to alter or change them to meet their newfound interpretation of things.

I was looking for credible and helpful responses…not criticism. Nice charity. Would someone…who is able to understand what I am asking, please answer my question without a lot of satire. Thanks

1.) Per the Catholic Church, there is no such thing as “Traditional Catholicism.” It sounds like a man-made construct outside of the Church to me. That, or a new Protestant denomination of some sort, like the “Old Catholic Church” for instance.

2.) Conservative/liberal/moderate labels are best left to politics.

3.) Interpretation is left to the Teaching Magisterium of the Church, not up to individual members. This ain’t Protestantism.

4.) I wasn’t trying to be critical. Just don’t get sucked into the idea that “Traditional Catholicism” is some action of movement that is sanctioned by the Church.

5.) I never suggested that you said that “Traditional Catholicism” was any sort of rite. Re-read my original posting.

 

[Crusader]

Veronica Anne:

Welcome to the board, dumspirito.

Um… when I read Crusader’s response (post #2 on this thread) I did NOT hear satire, at all. Crusader IMHO was giving you a sincere and loving response.

See… that’s the thing with message threads… without audible tones of voice people (like you and me) can hear something totally different from the same words.

I happen to agree with the points that Crusader was making. It’s extremely important to levelize on definitions of terms.

Especially when there are some Catholics who THINK that they’re being loyal to the Church when they call themselves “traditional” when, in fact, they are bordering on schism.

Me? I’m an cradle, orthodox, faithful, raving Catholic in total communion with Rome. I miss the Tridentine Mass (the one said in Latin and the priest’s back to the congregation) and would attend one from time to time if there was one celebrated with an indult anywhere near me.

In no way would I ever go to a Tridentine Mass (as described above) if it’s one of those SSPX ones.

Hope this helps?
:twocents: :bible1:

 

[Crusader]

deogratias:

First can I ask you if the Traditional Latin Mass you attend (Tridentine as many of us call it ) is an Indult Mass or one at an SSPX Chapel?

This is important.

Traditional Catholics who are faithful to the Pope and Rome must also accept that the Ordo Missae is valid if properly celebrated.

A traditional Catholic may or may not attend a Traditional Latin Mass and

They may only attend Traditional Latin Masses so long as they are at an approved Mass (by Indult of the Bishop) - if in doubt about the one you attend, call the diocese office and they will tell you.

Otherwise you would be attending perhaps a Mass that is celebrated by a schismatic group.

Traditional Catholics do not deny the validity of Vatican II and its changes.

Traditional Catholics are obedient to the churches teachings, and when given valid choices, they usually go for the more conservative ones.

Traditional Catholics do not practice birth control or advocate abortion; do believe in fidelity in marriage, do not receive communion when in a state of grave sin, do not advocate women in the priesthood, do not approve of premarital sex or other liberal ideas contrary to church teaching.

Traditional Catholics do not practice cafeteria Catholicism.

This is the “true Traditional Catholic” there are others who claim to be traditionalists but who do not follow the current church teahings and so are as dissenting as those who advocate liberalism.

Hope that helps.

No Catholic Christians should be attending services at SSPX chapels…

 

[catholiclady]

I think that is exactly what the person whose post you quoted was saying - maybe you were just confirming it?

 

[dumspirospero]

I hear you Crusader…I think you misunderstand my intentions…wI am not trying to become a part of some pseudo denomination within the Church…I really am not. What I want to do is attend the Latin Mass and follow some of the customs and traditions that have been around for ages, such as Fasting on every Friday…thats all, and I was hoping to find out other acceptable traditions in the same light…thats all. Please don’t think I want to be in Schism with the Church…because I don’t. I see your point of view though.

1.) Per the Catholic Church, there is no such thing as “Traditional Catholicism.” It sounds like a man-made construct outside of the Church to me. That, or a new Protestant denomination of some sort, like the “Old Catholic Church” for instance.

2.) Conservative/liberal/moderate labels are best left to politics.

3.) Interpretation is left to the Teaching Magisterium of the Church, not up to individual members. This ain’t Protestantism.

4.) I wasn’t trying to be critical. Just don’t get sucked into the idea that “Traditional Catholicism” is some action of movement that is sanctioned by the Church.

5.) I never suggested that you said that “Traditional Catholicism” was any sort of rite. Re-read my original posting.

 

[Crusader]

dumspirospero:

I hear you Crusader…I think you misunderstand my intentions…wI am not trying to become a part of some pseudo denomination within the Church…I really am not. What I want to do is attend the Latin Mass and follow some of the customs and traditions that have been around for ages, such as Fasting on every Friday…thats all, and I was hoping to find out other acceptable traditions in the same light…thats all. Please don’t think I want to be in Schism with the Church…because I don’t. I see your point of view though.

There simply is nothing known as a “Traditional Catholic” or even a “traditional Catholic” within the Catholic Church.

Personal piety is a wonderful thing, but when one begins to label themselves as something that dosen’t exist (such as a “Traditional Catholic”), one runs into problems.

It’s fine to attend the Tridentine Mass for instance, but it’s dangerous and damaging to suggest that the Tridentine Mass is superior to the Novus Ordo Mass – as just one example.

When one begins to believe their “conservative” or “traditional” choices makes them better than other Catholics, one is really headed for trouble – and they also do damage to the Church at the same time…

 

[dumspirospero]

But I don’t believe that…that is not the case. In no way do I feel I am better, just because I cling on to traditional teachings. That is just the way I have chosen to live out my Faith. I don’t think the TLM is better than the NO Mass…I attend both and I love both…however, I don’t feel that the TLM makes me a better Catholic than those attending the NO Mass. I just personally feel closer with God by attending. Do you see where I am coming from?

Crusader:

There simply is nothing known as a “Traditional Catholic” or even a “traditional Catholic” within the Catholic Church.

Personal piety is a wonderful thing, but when one begins to label themselves as something that dosen’t exist (such as a “Traditional Catholic”), one runs into problems.

It’s fine to attend the Tridentine Mass for instance, but it’s dangerous and damaging to suggest that the Tridentine Mass is superior to the Novus Ordo Mass – as just one example.

When one begins to believe their “conservative” or “traditional” choices makes them better than other Catholics, one is really headed for trouble – and they also do damage to the Church at the same time…

 

[IrenkaJMJ]

Tridentine Mass is not superior to the NO Mass, technically speaking. But if I prefer to attend a Latin Mass with people behaving reverently over a NO mass with lack of reverence then maybe to me it is superior. That doesn’t mean I believe every Latin Mass is more reverent than every NO mass. I’m sure there are very reverent NO Masses. Like the one on EWTN. I don’t think Dumspiro has to defend preferring the Latin Mass. The buzz word here is “traditional”. I don’t refer to myself as a Tradional Catholic because people will assume things about me that are untrue. I am a Roman Catholic whose lifestyle is traditional or old-fashioned. Maybe that’s a better way to put it.

 

[IrenkaJMJ]

Thought I’d expand a little here. I do admit there is sometimes a schismatic attitude among people who call themselves traditional Catholics. But that is by no means the norm. That would be like saying all people who go to NO masses are liberals. We have to stop lumping people into pre-concieved groups. Again, traditional refers more to my lifestyle and the way my husband and I choose to live our lives and raise our family.

 

[Stu]

1.) There is no such thing as a “Tridentine Latin Rite.” There is a Roman (or Latin) Rite within the Western Half of the Catholic Church that allows both the Novus Ordo Mass, and with an indult, the Mass in Latin based on the 1962 missal.

2.) Just what the heck is a “Traditional Catholic”? It’s certainly not a rite (or anything else for that matter) that is recognized by the Church. Sadly, it sounds like some sort of Protestant sect, where men choose what they wish to follow, rather than following the Church.

Words like “conservative” have little use in religion. “Orthodox” as in “orthodox Catholic” mean a great deal more. An “orthodox Catholic” would be following what the Church actually directs, and not what some man-made group concocted.

You can be 100% correct (which you are) and still fail in changing minds with a poor delivery. I am sure you probably didn’t mean ill will, but to a new person reading your post you do not come off as looking too charitable (I would submit some other adjectives come to mind.) Just something to think about.

Peace.
Stu