Traditional Catholicism Is About Reaching Out to Indigenous Peoples

[trickster]

Interestingly enough, many people on CA are not sure whether or not a conversation about evangelization and “Catholic-Indigenous” relations are within the realm of traditional catholicism.

My belief is that of course, the church has always been concerned about the salvation of souls and the dialogue that we sometimes have on Catholic Answers is also reflective of catholics of past generations in their work in the mission fields in North America the last 500 or so years.

The traditional church missionaries have shown great innovation in bringing the gospel to the worlds peoples adn the world’s peoples have responded to Jesus in as many ways as there are peoples…each culture has contributed to the globalization of the church adn the cultural identity fo the church starting from the Celts in 600 or so…

The missionaries pre 63 have shown remarkable innotvations (including the White Fathers of Africa) in conversion work…the conversations I bring up do speak to the traditional church…because I would hope that the traditional sub-forum is not just about safe space talk around latin, tridentine masses, european symbols used in church architecture and art…all thest things are beautfful…but surely the bride of Christ is more than ritual, ceremony and prety buildings…it is about the life saving message that Jesus talked about and his church preached…if the traditional church is not interested in the salvation of aboriginal or indigenous souls, what is its use? Go forth into all the world and “what”?

Thoughts

Bruce Ferguson
Trickster (Aboriginal Concept for Transformation or conversion)

 

[TrueLight]

Interestingly enough, many people on CA are not sure whether or not a conversation about evangelization and “Catholic-Indigenous” relations are within the realm of traditional catholicism.

My belief is that of course, the church has always been concerned about the salvation of souls and the dialogue that we sometimes have on Catholic Answers is also reflective of catholics of past generations in their work in the mission fields in North America the last 500 or so years.

The traditional church missionaries have shown great innovation in bringing the gospel to the worlds peoples adn the world’s peoples have responded to Jesus in as many ways as there are peoples…each culture has contributed to the globalization of the church adn the cultural identity fo the church starting from the Celts in 600 or so…

The missionaries pre 63 have shown remarkable innotvations (including the White Fathers of Africa) in conversion work…the conversations I bring up do speak to the traditional church…because I would hope that the traditional sub-forum is not just about safe space talk around latin, tridentine masses, european symbols used in church architecture and art…all thest things are beautfful…but surely the bride of Christ is more than ritual, ceremony and prety buildings…it is about the life saving message that Jesus talked about and his church preached…if the traditional church is not interested in the salvation of aboriginal or indigenous souls, what is its use? Go forth into all the world and “what”?

Thoughts

Bruce Ferguson
Trickster (Aboriginal Concept for Transformation or conversion)

I’m not saying ithey shouldn’t be in the Traditional Catholic Forum, but isn’t a lot of your threads about evangelization of aboriginal people? So is the Evangelization sub-forum more apropos?

Although admitedly, the TC forum gets more views.

 

[trickster]

I’m not saying ithey shouldn’t be in the Traditional Catholic Forum, but isn’t a lot of your threads about evangelization of aboriginal people? So is the Evangelization sub-forum more apropos?

Although admitedly, the TC forum gets more views.

Well exactly…I could put the stuff in non-Catholic religions as indigenous spirituality is not Catholic in the strict sense…but I am talking about where Catholicism meetins aboriginal spirituality and perhaps the organizers of Catholic answers could put up a section…

But True Light here’s my concern; we cannot dice up our faith into segments…if we limit traditional catholicism to item a, b and c, are we doing traditional catholicism justice…there are many beautiful things in the 2000 years fo our church with respect to the dialogue between the Catholic faith and non-catholic peoples…it is that history and the traditions that grew out of them that create who we are in the church and indeed has allowed the bride of Christ to grow as well…

So, I believe that as a Catholic topic of great love for the traditional church we ought to have conversations in the sub-forum that I have been putting out there…we’ll see.

Cheerz for now…(I just finished my response to your other thread…boy can you pack a lot of meaning into one or two sentences

Bruce

 

[robert7685]

Well, there are some traditional Catholic missions that reach out to indigenous people, as far as I know. I believe the SSPX has a few. Not sure about the FSSP, but I think I might have read somewhere that they too engage in missionary work. I’ll look it up when I get to a computer (I’m on a mobile phone right now).

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

While I understand what you are saying the definition of “Traditional Catholicism” is a very narrow one here at CAF.

See this sticky post from the moderator.

Good subjects for tc threads

What you are wanting to discuss is evangelization, even with a much broader definition of “Traditional Catholicism” I would still suggest that this topic should be posted in the Evangelization sub-forum because it is more than just a concern for “Traditonal Catholicism”. I would be very interested in hearing how Eastern Catholics view this.

 

[trickster]

Well, there are some traditional Catholic missions that reach out to indigenous people, as far as I know. I believe the SSPX has a few. Not sure about the FSSP, but I think I might have read somewhere that they too engage in missionary work. I’ll look it up when I get to a computer (I’m on a mobile phone right now).

Exactly! And the fact that the SSPX have a few “missions” is in fact interesting…makes sense given Lefebvres’ background as a White Father…what is FSSP? Yeah…and that is the discussion that intersects between my interests and the interests of th Traditional Catholicism sub-forum…

Let’s break down barriers ok too radical again… I know…

 

[trickster]

While I understand what you are saying the definition of “Traditional Catholicism” is a very narrow one here at CAF.

See this sticky post from the moderator.

Good subjects for tc threads

What you are wanting to discuss is evangelization, even with a much broader definition of “Traditional Catholicism” I would still suggest that this topic should be posted in the Evangelization sub-forum because it is more than just a concern for “Traditonal Catholicism”. I would be very interested in hearing how Eastern Catholics view this.

Hello ByzCath…the sticky post notes taht the following subjects are of interest in the TC sub-forum

Extraordinary Form of the Liturgy
Church History
Classics of Western Spirituality
Classics in Western Theology
Customs
Church writings
The Fathers of the Church
The Desert Fathers & Mothers
The great schools of Western spirituality
The stories of the saints
Western religious orders and religious congregations

Church History, Western Spirituality and Theology, and those postings around spirituality are directly related to the postings reflecting upon the idea of aboriginal / indigenous spirituality and how it has been seen by the traditional church…like I said somewhere before we may even be impressed with how non-traditional missionaries were in the 15-16-17th centuries when it came to workign with our people…

Perhaps though, we could find or create a sub-forum that looks directly at the relationship between indigenous spirituality adn catholicism…but I fear that the sub-forums have an effect of creating categoreis that do not allow for a broad based discussion that looks at an issue from all perspectives…that is neither here nor there…but if people are not wanting to see my posts on the TC threads, I am open to the message from the moderator…(I think I have already met him or her… yikes…

 

[LoyalViews]

Interestingly enough, many people on CA are not sure whether or not a conversation about evangelization and “Catholic-Indigenous” relations are within the realm of traditional catholicism.

My belief is that of course, the church has always been concerned about the salvation of souls and the dialogue that we sometimes have on Catholic Answers is also reflective of catholics of past generations in their work in the mission fields in North America the last 500 or so years.

The traditional church missionaries have shown great innovation in bringing the gospel to the worlds peoples adn the world’s peoples have responded to Jesus in as many ways as there are peoples…each culture has contributed to the globalization of the church adn the cultural identity fo the church starting from the Celts in 600 or so…

The missionaries pre 63 have shown remarkable innotvations (including the White Fathers of Africa) in conversion work…the conversations I bring up do speak to the traditional church…because I would hope that the traditional sub-forum is not just about safe space talk around latin, tridentine masses, european symbols used in church architecture and art…all thest things are beautfful…but surely the bride of Christ is more than ritual, ceremony and prety buildings…it is about the life saving message that Jesus talked about and his church preached…if the traditional church is not interested in the salvation of aboriginal or indigenous souls, what is its use? Go forth into all the world and “what”?

Thoughts

Bruce Ferguson
Trickster (Aboriginal Concept for Transformation or conversion)

You know, there have been a lot of efforts at evangelising the indigenous people by the Church, especially in Newfoundland and Labrador and Nova Scotia.

I have seen pictures of some churches which are on reservations, pre-1960’s, which espouse many elements of (for example) Mi’kmaq architecture and design, and they’re simple and stunning, and beautiful.

But, in the late 70-80’s, it seems that the “evangelisers” started to compromise the truth teachings of the Church, and start to sprinkle it with the paganism that is unfortunately rampant throughout Canada. Then, the evangelism started to go down. Then, the Church designs started to resemble indigenous pagan temples, rather than Churches. That’s where the problems started.

The Moravians have quite the following, they don’t design their churches like pagan temples, they don’t compromise their teachings. So, why should the evangelisers of the one, true Church have to? Answer, they don’t, and I don’t think any Native people are asking them to either.

 

[Warrenton]

Perhaps your question might be more accurately phrased “traditionalist views on reaching out to indigenous peoples.”

From that perspective, it is important to note that the traditionalist sees culture differently than modern Catholics, or modern Protestants.

Traditionalists do not view the aspects of old Catholicism distinctly European, though they admit that Europe is the location where things like gothic or romanesque architecture, painting, gilding and statuary were invented.

Instead, traditionalists see these aspects as marks of Catholic culture, which the culture of Europe adopted. Therefore, traditionalists want to export this part of Catholic culture to new cultures as part of conversion.

By way of example, the traditionalist does not see anything counter cultural about building a gothic church in Mozambique. The traditionalist does see something counter cultural about building a skyscraper in Zimbabwe.

The same can be said for Latin. Non Christian cultures should learn Latin as part of becoming grafted onto the larger Catholic culture.

This is different from the modern Protestant missionary viewpoint, which often presents along with its doctrine, a cultural preference for individualism, the free market, wage labor, and political alignment toward the west.

The traditionalist’s interest in the receiving culture is focused on establishing the viability of the Catholic culture - the founding of distinctly Catholic worship spaces, the celebration of distinctly Catholic rituals, the foundation where feasible of convents and monasteries and schools to teach the faith. This done, the culture is free to take its own path on all else, including the celebration of pre Christian religious activities.

 

[robert7685]

Exactly! And the fact that the SSPX have a few “missions” is in fact interesting…makes sense given Lefebvres’ background as a White Father…what is FSSP? Yeah…and that is the discussion that intersects between my interests and the interests of th Traditional Catholicism sub-forum…

Let’s break down barriers ok too radical again… I know…

FSSP stands for the Latin name of the Priestley Fraternity of Saint Peter. They are dedicated to the traditional rite (their words) of the Sacraments, much like the Society itself. There is tension between the two at the highest levels, but from what I understand, it doesn’t necessarily exist among the rank and file, nor most of the laity attached to one or the other. I certainly don’t have any quarrel with the FSSP, and even assist at the parish they care for within my city. But enough digression. I’ll probably have a little more info on trad missions tomorrow.

 

[Trishie]

On a purely practical level, our dear and irrepressible Bruce, what do you hope to achieve in CAF regarding Indigenous peoples? Is it not the understanding and support of ecclesiastic authorities that is needed?

You do not expect to create national changes that bring aboriginal elements even where there are not large numbers of Aboriginals in an area yet still some? And if this kind of movement takes hold in modern Canada, America, elsewhere, should not other cultures be able to bring their symbols into the Liturgy of the Mass?

I am an Australian. Why mightn’t a Catholic Bishop in Australia wear a slouch hat as recognizably Aussie, or the musical instruments routinely include a digeriedo in Australian Masses. And why shouldn’t we insist on eucalyptus oil to replace olive oil in liturgies and in the Sacraments? Eucalyptus oil is more healing and is anti-septic…a superior symbol for both Indigenous and other Australians? But then our country is becoming increasingly multicultural, including a multitudes of Asians from different islands and continents and Africans…how crowded and confusing Mass could become if all those cherished elements of music and symbol could be included as relevant to at least some persons at Mass? Might it not draw more people to Mass? On the other hand it mightn’t?

During Mass we turn to each other with welcome regardless of what color or race or language confronts us at sign of peace. We shake hands that are every color with warm smile and welcome. We show the same welcome outside of Mass. We are a Catholic community.

If the Church authorities allow you to include symbols in your local areas, we’re not going to argue with your Bishop, even if we did observe…but what if every culture insists on brings symbols into Mass…would this not become confusing, and raise resentment in those who might be overlooked because there are many?

Am I ‘stirring’? Or seeking a balance? Or simply asking what you ask of us, (and stirring, and seeking a balance)?

 

[Trishie]

PS: …tea-tree oil would be an even better substitute for healing oil symbolism in Australian liturgy …(however I’m not actually suggesting it as a substitute for olive oil to suit the Australian Indigenous or ordinary Australian spirit.)
Just making a point and asking a question, Bruce. But if the Aussie spirit creeps in too much, so does our humor. By the way, I spell humor incorrectly for an Aussie, but only because if I spell it correctly you’ll think it’s incorrect. Our spelling includes a superfluous ‘u’.

 

[LoyalViews]

PS: …tea-tree oil would be an even better substitute for healing oil symbolism in Australian liturgy …(however I’m not actually suggesting it as a substitute for olive oil to suit the Australian Indigenous or ordinary Australian spirit.)
Just making a point and asking a question, Bruce. But if the Aussie spirit creeps in too much, so does our humor. By the way, I spell humor incorrectly for an Aussie, but only because if I spell it correctly you’ll think it’s incorrect. Our spelling includes a superfluous ‘u’.

Nah, it wouldn’t be incorrect. Humour without the u is the American way, whereas Canadians spell things the same as Australians, i.e. the British spelling

Doncha worry now

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Perhaps though, we could find or create a sub-forum that looks directly at the relationship between indigenous spirituality adn catholicism…but I fear that the sub-forums have an effect of creating categoreis that do not allow for a broad based discussion that looks at an issue from all perspectives…that is neither here nor there…but if people are not wanting to see my posts on the TC threads, I am open to the message from the moderator…(I think I have already met him or her… yikes…

I think all of this fits the Evangelization sub-forum.

Why should there be a special sub-forum for only indigenous spirituality?

As Trishie asks (not in as few words as I am going to use now) what is so special about indigenous cultures?

 

[Trishie]

Bruce, I’ve made a couple of attempts to respond to your PM, some days apart, but your message box is full. Warm regards, Trishie

 

[Trishie]

It is my understanding that Bruce’s concern regarding Indigenous culture is based in his desire that Indigenous peoples feel more included in the Church, and therefore will become more involved in Church life.
My argument in this instance was that all indigenous people of different regions and nations, and all established cultures, could potentially claim to particular consideration in the Liturgy.

I’m not sure I’d quite say “what’s special about indigenous cultures”
I do think they are special…for instance, as an Australian I would agree that the culture of our Indigenous Australians is special. Our Aboriginals have built up their rich culture with regional differences over 40,000 years. And I do have a genuine respect for other Indigenous cultures, as well as national cultures.

However I might rather say…every one of these may claim a right to be represented in our liturgies…might claim so…but **this would be chaos. We do need to respect and be loyal to the Liturgy as presented to us by the Holy Spirit in the Church.
**
Jesus promised, “I still have many things to say to you but they would be too much for you now. But when the Spirit comes He will lead you to the complete truth…All He tells you will be taken from what is mine.” “You will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you, and then you will be my witnesses not only in Jerusalem but indeed…to the ends of the earth.” [John 16:8-9, 12-13, 15]
Before His ascension, Jesus said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore, make disciples of all the nations; baptise them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teach them to observe all the commands I gave you. And know that I am with you always, yes even to the end of time.” [Matthew 28:17-20]

I do sympathetically understand what Bruce is trying to do, but while I have vigorously fenced with him many times, I am assured that he is a committed Catholic and will respond ultimately according to dialogue with Church authorities. In CAF he appear to be exploring possibilities, proposing arguments, regrouping after each battle to return with another proposition, and all the while learning where the boundaries are considered to be by the Catholics who respond, sometimes bluntly, but he is in his heart a loyal and committed Catholic. In the end he will obey the Church, as creatively as he can I suspect, but he remains a Catholic with a mission to draw Indigenous peoples into the Church in community with their fellow Catholics.

 

[RogerDeCourcy]

Fr Z. has an amusing post related to this topic:
wdtprs.com/blog/2011/12/quaeritur-rubrics-for-aztec-dancers-during-the-offertory/

I think we shouldn’t put Assyrian culture into the Roman rite just to satisfy … what … a longing for self expression? Which isn’t appropriate to a Mass anyway.

Keep it in the school hall, I say.

People or groups who want to do this should sit quietly in a dark room and think long and hard about why they want to insert their innovations into the rite. Because I’m pretty sure they’re making it up as they go along.

 

[trickster]

You know, there have been a lot of efforts at evangelising the indigenous people by the Church, especially in Newfoundland and Labrador and Nova Scotia.

I have seen pictures of some churches which are on reservations, pre-1960’s, which espouse many elements of (for example) Mi’kmaq architecture and design, and they’re simple and stunning, and beautiful.

But, in the late 70-80’s, it seems that the “evangelisers” started to compromise the truth teachings of the Church, and start to sprinkle it with the paganism that is unfortunately rampant throughout Canada. Then, the evangelism started to go down. Then, the Church designs started to resemble indigenous pagan temples, rather than Churches. That’s where the problems started.

The Moravians have quite the following, they don’t design their churches like pagan temples, they don’t compromise their teachings. So, why should the evangelisers of the one, true Church have to? Answer, they don’t, and I don’t think any Native people are asking them to either.

Yes, those are interesting points. I think - and I participated in this during the 70-80’s - that we tried to look at Catholicism within a social justice perspective too fueled on by JP II messages to indigenous not only here in Canada but in the rest of the indigenous world. But WHAT is pagan about our appraoch since then? Do you have picutres of indigneous parishes looking like temples? That would be weird…So look forward to you relaboration on your thoughts here…exactly how are these things supportive of paganism.

Bruce