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Mi_Rose
Guest
There is CMRI which is sedevacantist but lists a church near me as a Catholic parish. Grrr…
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
Those so-called Traditionalists who don’t attack the Novus Ordo and Vatican II, are the few among them.
I’ve dealt with their abuse for decades, not just in this forum BTW.
Jim
I’ve dealt with their abuse for decades, not just in this forum BTW.
Jim
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gracepoole
Guest
Yes, it can get very confusing for that reason. Sedes believe, of course, that they’re the only true Catholics left.
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gracepoole
Guest
What kind of abuse, Jim?
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mytruepower2
Guest
I’m a big fan of labels, because without them, how would you tell the difference between one claim and another?
The problem where TC is concerned is that, technically, officially, the doctrines of the Church; the glue that holds the faith together, are what they are, because of their relation to the moral nature of almighty God, which cannot change. Ever. If you believe that the Church has, or has ever had, the authority to define our obligations in morality and belief, you should be, if not a TC, then at least “tradition-minded.” If you do not believe that the Church has said authority, then it’s difficult to see how you would be different from a protestant, who also rejects the doctrinal authority of the Church.
The issue is not with TCs defining themselves into a corner. The issue is that the doctrines and traditions of the Church should be cherished, and too often, a large number of people don’t do so.
Lest you think I’m oversimplifying matters, my mother’s parish has a discussion group every so often, where a good third of the practicing, church-going Catholics in that group think that the Church should change one or more of her teachings. All you need is to believe that the Catholic Church’s teachings are and remain authoritative, and you would never hold that view. Yet, many, many people do; much more than the number of those claiming to be traditionalist. You will never hear a traditionalist (and I mean a real traditionalist now; not one of those sedavacantist guys) doubt the teaching authority of the Catholic Church. If Church authority were firmer, we wouldn’t have dissenters in our churches nearly as much. Yes, it’s possible there might be fewer people in those churches, but those who were there would be more united, more trusting of each other, and quite honestly, safer.
In closing, our unity with God is the most important thing. Our unity with our fellow human beings is nice to have, but it comes second.
The problem where TC is concerned is that, technically, officially, the doctrines of the Church; the glue that holds the faith together, are what they are, because of their relation to the moral nature of almighty God, which cannot change. Ever. If you believe that the Church has, or has ever had, the authority to define our obligations in morality and belief, you should be, if not a TC, then at least “tradition-minded.” If you do not believe that the Church has said authority, then it’s difficult to see how you would be different from a protestant, who also rejects the doctrinal authority of the Church.
The issue is not with TCs defining themselves into a corner. The issue is that the doctrines and traditions of the Church should be cherished, and too often, a large number of people don’t do so.
Lest you think I’m oversimplifying matters, my mother’s parish has a discussion group every so often, where a good third of the practicing, church-going Catholics in that group think that the Church should change one or more of her teachings. All you need is to believe that the Catholic Church’s teachings are and remain authoritative, and you would never hold that view. Yet, many, many people do; much more than the number of those claiming to be traditionalist. You will never hear a traditionalist (and I mean a real traditionalist now; not one of those sedavacantist guys) doubt the teaching authority of the Catholic Church. If Church authority were firmer, we wouldn’t have dissenters in our churches nearly as much. Yes, it’s possible there might be fewer people in those churches, but those who were there would be more united, more trusting of each other, and quite honestly, safer.
In closing, our unity with God is the most important thing. Our unity with our fellow human beings is nice to have, but it comes second.
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
Gee, I’ll mention just one which was relatively recent, by a friend no-less.\
He handed me a photo he got off the Web, showing Cardinal Bergoglio aka Pope Francis, dressed in the robes of a Freemason. The photo was obviously photoshopped by be claims he got it from a “traditionalists,” website which according to him, is credible.
Then of course he had other non-sense printed from “Church Militant.”
Jim
He handed me a photo he got off the Web, showing Cardinal Bergoglio aka Pope Francis, dressed in the robes of a Freemason. The photo was obviously photoshopped by be claims he got it from a “traditionalists,” website which according to him, is credible.
Then of course he had other non-sense printed from “Church Militant.”
Jim
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Maxirad
Guest
Check out this piece by Karl Keating.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
I like pie. And Jesus. And experiencing various types of Mass.
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stpurl
Guest
Excuse me? Don’t 'preach to me about how they’ve been treated badly?"
Let me get this straight.
YOU have, by your account, been ‘treated badly’ by a small number of people who identify as ‘traditionalist’, therefore all traditionalists are mean, nasty, awful hateful people.
Now let’s try two things.
First, let’s replace 'traditionalist" with, oh let’s say ‘black’.
You were treated badly by ‘black people’. Therefore, all black people are mean, nasty, etc.
Oh, that doesn’t sound very good.
How about replacing with “Protestant”? “Protestants said mean things to me, all protestants are mean hateful people”. . .
Still doesn’t sound good.
Let’s turn it around. Let’s make you 'traditionalist" and let you be treated badly by ‘progressive’ or ‘just plain Catholics’. All THOSE people are mean and hateful, right?
No? No to all the above?
Then why ‘yes’ if, and only if, the label is ‘traditionalist’??
I am sorry for your hurt, but that does not give you a license to turn around and be as hurtful to those you ‘perceive’ as from the same ‘mean group’.
Let me get this straight.
YOU have, by your account, been ‘treated badly’ by a small number of people who identify as ‘traditionalist’, therefore all traditionalists are mean, nasty, awful hateful people.
Now let’s try two things.
First, let’s replace 'traditionalist" with, oh let’s say ‘black’.
You were treated badly by ‘black people’. Therefore, all black people are mean, nasty, etc.
Oh, that doesn’t sound very good.
How about replacing with “Protestant”? “Protestants said mean things to me, all protestants are mean hateful people”. . .
Still doesn’t sound good.
Let’s turn it around. Let’s make you 'traditionalist" and let you be treated badly by ‘progressive’ or ‘just plain Catholics’. All THOSE people are mean and hateful, right?
No? No to all the above?
Then why ‘yes’ if, and only if, the label is ‘traditionalist’??
I am sorry for your hurt, but that does not give you a license to turn around and be as hurtful to those you ‘perceive’ as from the same ‘mean group’.
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
OK, my experience is blown off by you.
And it isn’t a small number, nor am I the only Catholic to be abused by so-called “traditionalists.”
They’re a lot calmer lately than they were in the past, but you’re probably too young to have the experience.
No sense continuing with this.
Jim
And it isn’t a small number, nor am I the only Catholic to be abused by so-called “traditionalists.”
They’re a lot calmer lately than they were in the past, but you’re probably too young to have the experience.
No sense continuing with this.
Jim
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gracepoole
Guest
Oh, geez…
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stpurl
Guest
I’m 61. And I am not blowing off your experience. I notice that you are carefully not responding to my questions.
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Aulef
Guest
It isn’t only about the words. How it is done and who does it matters as well.
Unless you think a shirtless 15 years old lay kid, by saying the right words, celebrates a valid Mass
Unless you think a shirtless 15 years old lay kid, by saying the right words, celebrates a valid Mass
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tweedlealice
Guest
Together Diversified! No hate but Love
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JamalChristophr
Guest
I suppose there has always been some degree of divisiveness beginning in the Early Church. St. Paul’s letters indicate that. You Catholics are all a bunch of sinners, anyways. 
The Early Church may have done a better job at internal unity. I’m unsure on that point.
The Early Church may have done a better job at internal unity. I’m unsure on that point.
J
JamalChristophr
Guest
As long as you understand that apple pie is best, and strongly to be preferred, we will get alone fine.
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Tis_Bearself
Patron
I am fine with apple pie sometimes. Just don’t start in about the pumpkin pie being invalid because it doesn’t have a top crust.
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Roseeurekacross
Guest
Only by a very clever loophole, do you know what it is?
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Shakuhachi
Guest
I think the presence of some diversity within our deeper unity should not been seen as a threat. Would that we respect the spirituality of others, perhaps even celebrate or diversity.
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