Traditional Catholicism TOO Conservative for Canadian Catholics?

[OraLabora]

I don’t understand how people can say, “Oh, let me look at this from a different perspective.” Because that always means, “Oh, let me just disregard this and do whatever in God’s name I want.”

Your looking at it in a manner totally disconnected from the local cultural context. It isn’t that simple, as my previous post should, I hope show.

 

[LoyalViews]

I don’t understand how people can say, “Oh, let me look at this from a different perspective.” Because that always means, “Oh, let me just disregard this and do whatever in God’s name I want.”

Have an open mind, now!
This is a religious forum, and religion is about peace and tranquility, tolerance and respect. We have to acknowledge other people’s different views. Not about the truth or who’s right and wrong. We’re all right anyhow!
:whacky:

 

[YoungTradCath]

Your looking at it in a manner totally disconnected from the local cultural context. It isn’t that simple, as my previous post should, I hope show.

But why can’t people at least try to step out of the cultural context? Wouldn’t that be the most “open-minded” thing to do?

 

[OraLabora]

But why can’t people at least try to step out of the cultural context? Wouldn’t that be the most “open-minded” thing to do?

There are tiny signs that this is happening.

But try telling that to a woman who had to bear 12 children because the Church told her she had to.

 

[YoungTradCath]

There are tiny signs that this is happening.

But try telling that to a woman who had to bear 12 children because the Church told her she had to.

Then perhaps we can hope that is a generationally-confined problem.

 

[OraLabora]

Then perhaps we can hope that is a generationally-confined problem.

Yes, but as the Bible says, the sins of the fathers will be visited upon how many generations?

Lots of Truth and wisdom in that old book!

 

[fille_francais]

You have to understand that the local church in Quebec (and I want to stress the word local, which is why I used a lower-case “c”), was very much guilty of driving away Catholics.
Interestingly the Church in Quebec has many parallels to the Church in Ireland. The Irish and French Canadians as a result had great affinity for each other and intermarriage was common between Irish and French families.

The fact that Quebecers were impoverished and exploited by outside forces also contributed to the Quebec sense of being oppressed, and I can state from my personal experience that French Quebecers were oppressed right into the 60s. An Anglo company built a paper mill in 1966 in a very French area and all labels on machinery and instructions manuals in the mill were in English only. Just one of many examples.

It’s coincidental that the Quiet Revolution more or less happened at the same time as Vatican II. In fact it started when John XXIII was pope, but before Vatican II was called, with the death of Maurice Duplessis, in 1959, and the election of Jean Lesage, of the Liberal Party, in 1960. For those Catholics who remained, going back to the pre-Vatican II mentality is a non-starter, for they associate it with their oppression. There is a small tendency among younger Catholics towards more traditional aspects of Catholicism; I sing in a Gregorian chant schola around various parishes and we seem to get a far more receptive audience in parishes of younger families. When we sing at one such parish, in a large modern 1960s church (the building I mean…), at the Saturday evening Mass the church is jam-packed. Yet when we sing across town at a parish with a much older demographic, we’re lucky to get 40-60 in attendance. The younger generation shows more curiosity for more traditional liturgical practices. I don’t know them enough to know how that translates into acceptance of more traditional doctrines, but I do know that I’m not surprised that their parents, now in their 70s but who were in their 20s during the Quiet Revolution, reject Gregorian chant because they associate it with a very oppressive church.

It’s an extremely nuanced dynamic that doesn’t allow for neat categorization into “traditionalist” or “modernist” boxes as we so often see in debates on this forum.

I myself am a child of Vatican II. I consider myself orthodox, but not a traditionalist at least as defined here. I accept most teachings of the Church, do my best to conform in humble obedience in those that give me difficulty, and work at my own inner conversion. I have a long way to go, that’s all I can say, but I can also say I have come a long way. I do not want to go back to a pre-Vatican II Church. I have no particular desire for the EF Mass but I do want to see the OF Mass done the way it should be, with solemnity, dignity, and as much as possible, traditional music (Gregorian chant especially). I consider Catholicism to be a big messy family just as most big families can be messy with funny uncles, weird cousins, relatives that just don’t “get it”, yet we are all family.

I especially applaud the ability of Catholics to be allowed to think for themselves rather than blindly adhere to doctrines they don’t really agree with. I’d rather see honest dissent than hypocritical adherence. I agree with the comment about Catholics pre-Vatican II not being allowed to think for themselves. That was very much the situation in Quebec.

For Quebecers, there’s no turning back the clock. As with any “revolutionary” movement, the pendulum swung too far the other way. But I see tiny signs that it has started to travel back towards the centre. If it does so, I hope it comes from the heart. Imposed traditionalism will never catch. But a genuine hunger for Truth, and a compassionate teaching of Truth, has a chance. The problem in Quebec, is that the teaching of Truth before Vatican II was tinged with heresy, and was seen as many, especially women, as totally bereft of compassion.

Many blame Quebecers for tossing out the Church from their lives, but the sad truth is that the local church bears much of the blame for driving away Catholics, and I think that those leaders will have much to answer for on judgement day, for they failed to care for their flock with love and charity.

I enjoy reading your posts! While I was growing up, my dad would bring us on pilgrimage to St. Anne de Beaupre every year.
I live on the border of New Brunswick Canada and my husband also works with men from Quebec. We often speak of Catholicism in french Canada. From what we see Catholicism rings in the hearts of french Canada. Perhaps they don’t adhere to every teaching of the Church or even attend weekly mass, but the Catholic faith still beats in their hearts.
On our side of the river in towns that border french Canada there are so many fly by night protestant churches. Go to Canada and there is not one. It seems only very large Catholic churches exist. I could be wrong, but from my observation french Canadians in my part of the world aren’t flocking to protestants churches.

 

[RobbyS]

Two summers ago we were visiting in Quebec, where my paternal grandparents were born and raised. The church in Grandma’s hometown was up for sale! A shock, as it was full each Sunday morning when I was a child. Upon inquiring I was informed that Quebec has become as secular as any place on earth. A common explanation offered was a backlash against earlier times when the Church pretty much ran the province.

 My own thought is that Canada has closer ties with Europe, perhaps, and has gone the way Europe has traveled. The USA has a reasonably strong Catholic population and an even more zealous evangelical Protestant population, even though many (most?) Catholics and Protestants are inclined toward a fairly liberal version of Christianity - as I am. Traditional Catholicism just can't hold out in an era when the majority of believers of various affiliations are ready to join hands and sing Kumbaya together! The past fervent religious (and bigoted)  tribalism of the past won't return, and I suspect that this makes Christ happy.

Quebec has become secular because its people have abandoned the faith of their fathers, and have exchanged the truth for a lie. All this has less to do with a reaction to clericalism than the unwillingness to serve any authority at all. They have accepted the dogma that all is permitted, that the only justice is their justice.

 

[GRATEFULONEjim]

Quebec has become secular because its people have abandoned the faith of their fathers, and have exchanged the truth for a lie. All this has less to do with a reaction to clericalism than the unwillingness to serve any authority at all. They have accepted the dogma that all is permitted, that the only justice is their justice.

That seems to be the way of modern culture today. Individualism is glorified by society and is at odds with our Catholic faith. It has become the mainstream to do what feels good and want it all and want it now. At stake are peoples souls/ But, people think they can just “deal with that later”.

 

[OraLabora]

Quebec has become secular because its people have abandoned the faith of their fathers, and have exchanged the truth for a lie. All this has less to do with a reaction to clericalism than the unwillingness to serve any authority at all. They have accepted the dogma that all is permitted, that the only justice is their justice.

The “Truth” in Quebec was served to the people in a very unpalatable fashion. It’s no wonder they rebelled. Without charity Truth is an empty shell.

 

[Brendan]

But try telling that to a woman who had to bear 12 children because the Church told her she had to.

Ora,

Which one of those 12 children do you think that GOD didn’t want her to have?

Which one of those children did God create in error?

 

[Kithrus]

In Canada I find that the ‘developing modern social advancement’ is a very powerful. In Canada the sacrifice of the majority to bend to the needs of the minority results in gays and feminists running rampant like dirty sick man touching everything at the mall that security is too hesitant to throw out.

Maybe I comically over state this but my fellow Canadian Catholics are more then likely nodding sagely at this point

That being said however there is a huge movement of disgruntled Catholics moving in the shadows plotting the down fall of the corrupt regime so that the light may return to our scarred home!

rubs eyes

Sorry just woke up.

My dreams are like books. Jealous?

 

[Lujack]

Ora,

Which one of those 12 children do you think that GOD didn’t want her to have?

Which one of those children did God create in error?

I think we have to walk a careful line here. Children can come out of bad actions; to put constant psychological pressure on women that they are inferior because they aren’t having enough children is undoubtedly a torturous thing for the people concerned, and pregnancy is a process that is physically and emotionally draining, particularly when people feel that it is being forced upon them.

 

[floresco]

I am a Canadian Catholic and Traditional Catholicism is not too conservative for me. I find many values of this culture highly objectionable.

 

[OraLabora]

I find many values of this culture highly objectionable.

That I agree with. However, I think a profound re-evangelization is necessary of orthodox Catholicism is to take root in our hearts. Doing it as it was done before the '60s, by imposition, is hardly likely to work.

 

[OraLabora]

I want to add that there is a slow trickle of people back to the Church. I am one of those reverts, I came back nearly 15 years ago after a 22 year absence. But it is certainly a trickle, not a torrent. Today at Mass at the monastery a young father came up for communion carrying his baby in his arms, it was a heartening scene. It isn’t without hope. But a lot of damage was done, and a lot of bridges remain to be rebuilt.

 

[Brendan]

I think we have to walk a careful line here. Children can come out of bad actions; to put constant psychological pressure on women that they are inferior because they aren’t having enough children is undoubtedly a torturous thing for the people concerned, and pregnancy is a process that is physically and emotionally draining, particularly when people feel that it is being forced upon them.

When did the Church state that a woman is inferior if she does not have chidlren.

Rather, what I see is that the Church has always taugh is that children are a gift from God and a blessing.

Who would really want the Church teaching that a person, any person, should NOT will the acceptance of any and all gifts that God desires for them. Should the Church teach anyone, male or female to tell God, not YOUR Will, but MY will be done. Is that really the message of Christ?

 

[OraLabora]

When did the Church state that a woman is inferior if she does not have chidlren.

Don’t confuse the Church with the local church in the era we are speaking about. As I mentioned early on they had Jansenist tendencies. Jansenism is a heresy.

Rather, what I see is that the Church has always taugh is that children are a gift from God and a blessing.

Indeed they are. She also teaches it is quite legitimate for families to use natural methods to space children for serious, including economic, reasons. She never taught that the parish priest should drop in and visit if the family didn’t crank out the babies fast enough.

Who would really want the Church teaching that a person, any person, should NOT will the acceptance of any and all gifts that God desires for them. Should the Church teach anyone, male or female to tell God, not YOUR Will, but MY will be done. Is that really the message of Christ?

Somehow, I don’t think telling women they had to be baby factories was God’s will.

Please keep in mind that this discussion concerns the local Quebec church, and NOT the universal Roman Catholic Church.

 

[Lujack]

When did the Church state that a woman is inferior if she does not have chidlren.

Rather, what I see is that the Church has always taugh is that children are a gift from God and a blessing.

Who would really want the Church teaching that a person, any person, should NOT will the acceptance of any and all gifts that God desires for them. Should the Church teach anyone, male or female to tell God, not YOUR Will, but MY will be done. Is that really the message of Christ?

As OraLabora pointed out, I (and a lot of people in this thread) were talking about a problem specific to Quebec, where the actions of the local members of the hierarchy greatly damaged the esteem that the Church had been held in.

The actions they took were contrary to the spirit of Catholic doctrine, but they were done by members of the hierarchy on behalf of the Church and acting in their capacity as priests. And that has caused harm to the Church in Quebec, and it is important to understand why.

 

[curlycool89]

When did the Church state that a woman is inferior if she does not have chidlren.

Rather, what I see is that the Church has always taugh is that children are a gift from God and a blessing.

The Church also says that it is licit to not have children at a certain point in your life and in certain situations (just had another kid, you don’t have any income to support them, etc).

What happened in Quebec was much closer to Church/state sponsored harassment. You were visited every year. Having a miscarriage was no excuse either (and I’m not kidding, telling the priest you had a miscarriage still got you an admonishment for not having another kid, despite the fact that may have still be psychologically recovering from the miscarriage). There was no pastoral discretion.

Yes, kids are a blessing, but there’s no doctrine that says you have to have 1 a year or more then 3 or at least 12 or anything like that.