Traditional Catholicism TOO Conservative for Canadian Catholics?

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Don’t confuse the Church with the local church in the era we are speaking about. As I mentioned early on they had Jansenist tendencies. Jansenism is a heresy.
Complete digression, but I think its interesting that Jansenism is a heresy named for and based on the beliefs of a man who was not a heretic. Not that Jansenism misrepresents what Jansen believed, but that Jansen died before the Church condemned it and wrote in his posthumous epilogue to one of his books that if the Church willed it changed, it ought to be changed.

Doesn’t make it any less of a gloomy theology.
 
In Canada I find that the ‘developing modern social advancement’ is a very powerful. In Canada the sacrifice of the majority to bend to the needs of the minority results in gays and feminists running rampant like dirty sick man touching everything at the mall that security is too hesitant to throw out.

Maybe I comically over state this but my fellow Canadian Catholics are more then likely nodding sagely at this point 😛

That being said however there is a huge movement of disgruntled Catholics moving in the shadows plotting the down fall of the corrupt regime so that the light may return to our scarred home!

rubs eyes

Sorry just woke up.

My dreams are like books. Jealous? 😛
I think you might have hit the nail there.

In Canada, the main issue is that with multiculturalism, there is a growing implicit belief that nothing is really objectively right or wrong other than Tolerance it-self. So any thing can be changed and up for change as long as you have enough votes or people to back it up.

The average Canadian would be ok with saying ‘‘well that is their belief and I respect that and they should be allowed to live their life that way’’ as opposed to saying ‘‘there behavior and beliefs are wrong’’. The more popular angle is ''who are we to tell them that they are wrong?".

But ironically, most of the people who belong to different races that migrate, actually do have strict beliefs on what is right and wrong. They too are brainwashed by the prevailing culture to simply start thinking that way. The culture of absolute tolerance is enforced on everyone, regardless of their culture.

So I have to clarify that I am not saying multiculturalism is the root cause. But multiculturalism has lead to the enforcement of a culture in which the main belief is “I have no right to tell someone they are doing something wrong unless they are being intolerant”. In honesty this doesn’t even promote multiculturalism but a weird sense of indifferentism.
 
I recall, as a child, a farmer’s wife "down the road’ from our place. I overheard Mom and another woman discussing how tragic it was that she tried to take her own life because she was pregnant with her 14th child. Apparently, she was totally depressed about it. This was a French-Canadian family, who had come from Quebec. Many other such families had numerous children. Mr Grandmother (raised in Quebec also) was of one 13 who lived - two died soon after birth. They endured extreme poverty throughout their childhood years.
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This notion that God plans each and every birth is silly and an insult to the Almighty. We have to take responsibility for such matters. This is where artificial birth control comes in. True, it can produce problems,  etc. But it is the right of a husband and wife to decide whether or not they can properly handle more children, not the right of anyone else. Family planning is appropriate, and even the Church acknowledges this by permitting 'natural' planning. The problem is that natural planning can be like Russian roulette. How much better to enjoy the love and intimacy of marital relations  - important in any good marriage - in a relaxed atmosphere instead of fear and anxiety. The Church is wrong on this issue, and perhaps no single matter has done more to shake the loyalty and faith of Catholics than to have a celibate clergy insist upon this 'moral code' that appears so wrong. Frankly, this has seemed even more ridiculous in light of the clergy child abuse that has finally become public and has impacted the esteem for clergy that existed years ago. Here Bishops were hiding and even protecting predators while invading the bedrooms of good Catholic laity! 

  Abortions are something quite different, but unwanted pregnacies obviously are the reason for them. There is a huge difference between artificial birth control and an abortion. I find nothing in scripture that suggests that birth control is wrong. Some cite that ridiculous story of Onan who refused to impregnate his dead brother's widow, a totally irrelevant circumstance, a tradition that we would find at least bizarre if not outright adultery today.  

   I know that those who believe the Church cannot err in this arena will disagree, but it's time to face reality and live in the real world.
 
I recall, as a child, a farmer’s wife "down the road’ from our place. I overheard Mom and another woman discussing how tragic it was that she tried to take her own life because she was pregnant with her 14th child. Apparently, she was totally depressed about it. This was a French-Canadian family, who had come from Quebec. Many other such families had numerous children. Mr Grandmother (raised in Quebec also) was of one 13 who lived - two died soon after birth. They endured extreme poverty throughout their childhood years.
Code:
This notion that God plans each and every birth is silly and an insult to the Almighty. We have to take responsibility for such matters. This is where artificial birth control comes in. True, it can produce problems,  etc. But it is the right of a husband and wife to decide whether or not they can properly handle more children, not the right of anyone else. Family planning is appropriate, and even the Church acknowledges this by permitting 'natural' planning. The problem is that natural planning can be like Russian roulette. How much better to enjoy the love and intimacy of marital relations  - important in any good marriage - in a relaxed atmosphere instead of fear and anxiety. The Church is wrong on this issue, and perhaps no single matter has done more to shake the loyalty and faith of Catholics than to have a celibate clergy insist upon this 'moral code' that appears so wrong. Frankly, this has seemed even more ridiculous in light of the clergy child abuse that has finally become public and has impacted the esteem for clergy that existed years ago. Here Bishops were hiding and even protecting predators while invading the bedrooms of good Catholic laity! 

  Abortions are something quite different, but unwanted pregnacies obviously are the reason for them. There is a huge difference between artificial birth control and an abortion. I find nothing in scripture that suggests that birth control is wrong. Some cite that ridiculous story of Onan who refused to impregnate his dead brother's widow, a totally irrelevant circumstance, a tradition that we would find at least bizarre if not outright adultery today.  

   I know that those who believe the Church cannot err in this arena will disagree, but it's time to face reality and live in the real world.
Very interesting issues, and would be great to discuss, but this might not be the right thread for it considering the topic. Maybe you can open a new thread perhaps to discuss it, if you are interested?
 
I’m a Catholic in Canada and quite active in my diocese, but I can’t say that I know anyone who identifies as a traditionalist. Sure, there’s some people who go to the EF Mass, but those are the same people I’ll see at an OF Mass during the week.

It was called the Quiet Revolution, and at this point it started over half a century ago.

I can confirm that these stories are not isolated either, and I’ve heard of them before this too. I’ve heard that some people would get their yearly visit even if they had just miscarried.
And that’s when they weren’t pointed out from the pulpit and accused of using contraception – not that all curés did that, but it was done.
 
Don’t confuse the Church with the local church in the era we are speaking about. As I mentioned early on they had Jansenist tendencies. Jansenism is a heresy.
I understand that, but I have yet to hear about the church in Quebec being faulted by the Church for such tendencies.
Indeed they are. She also teaches it is quite legitimate for families to use natural methods to space children for serious, including economic, reasons. She never taught that the parish priest should drop in and visit if the family didn’t crank out the babies fast enough.
Space them, yes, deny them, no.

And is it not a good thing for a pastor to check on the health of his parishioners, or if there are any economic issues, perhaps so the parish could assit?. Of course, also to encourage them to be open to any and all gifts from God. Would it be a Christian act to attribute any other motives to the local Cure?
Somehow, I don’t think telling women they had to be baby factories was God’s will
.But telling them they (and everyone) should be open to God’s Will in their lives, is good thing, is it not.
Please keep in mind that this discussion concerns the local Quebec church, and NOT the universal Roman Catholic Church.
I believe I was talking about the Church in Quebec. Of course, what the Church teaches is valid everywhere, ne pas?
 
And is it not a good thing for a pastor to check on the health of his parishioners, or if there are any economic issues, perhaps so the parish could assit?. Of course, also to encourage them to be open to any and all gifts from God. Would it be a Christian act to attribute any other motives to the local Cure?
Maybe if that’s what the motive was. But from all I’ve heard (and Ora can confirm this for me), it was an annual baby-check and everyone knew it was an annual baby-check. Doing it under a euphemism such as “checking on parishioners” doesn’t make it any different.

Women would get a stern talking to if they didn’t have a new baby (and like I said, no excuses, not even miscarriages). There’s nothing wrong with making sure people are open to life, but this went well beyond into demonizing women who didn’t have a baby each and every year (which is not, and has never been, a requirement of the Church).
 
I guess what I am saying is that Christianity should have room for many races, colors, ethnicities, traditions, and rituals, as well as different interpretations of the faith.

People have been interpreting the traditions, rituals, and beliefs of The Church to suit their own lifestyles for centuries now. They’re called Protestants.

I left The Church for many years because I didn’t see why the “rules” should apply to me. I am in my senior years now and having spent many years observing the decline of the family and morals in general I have reassessed my views. It is clear to me that the choices I made contrary to the teachings of The Church have not only negatively impacted my life, but will impact the lives of my children in the decades to come. It was this realization that brought me back to The Church.

I prefer to consider myself a “practicing” Catholic rather than a conservative Catholic because I agree and follow the tenets of my faith,however, I can’t help but think the the trend of conservatism is in direct response to the progressive secularism of liberalism that is taking over this country.
 
Roy5;9183573:
I guess what I am saying is that Christianity should have room for many races, colors, ethnicities, traditions, and rituals, as well as different interpretations of the faith.

People have been interpreting the traditions, rituals, and beliefs of The Church to suit their own lifestyles for centuries now. They’re called Protestants.

I left The Church for many years because I didn’t see why the “rules” should apply to me. I am in my senior years now and having spent many years observing the decline of the family and morals in general I have reassessed my views. It is clear to me that the choices I made contrary to the teachings of The Church have not only negatively impacted my life, but will impact the lives of my children in the decades to come. It was this realization that brought me back to The Church.

I prefer to consider myself a “practicing” Catholic rather than a conservative Catholic because I agree and follow the tenets of my faith,however, I can’t help but think the the trend of conservatism is in direct response to the progressive secularism of liberalism that is taking over this country.
:clapping: You hit the nail squarely on that one :clapping:
 
Code:
   I know that those who believe the Church cannot err in this arena will disagree, but it's time to face reality and live in the real world.
In the real world, the Catholic Church teaches the truth and those who contradict her (like you) are necessarily wrong.
 
But why can’t people at least try to step out of the cultural context? Wouldn’t that be the most “open-minded” thing to do?
Cultural is part of our reallity, it is our inner souls…we are mammals too you know… what about the limited cultural context of the traditional catholic view? Was not the Catholic Church formed by cutlural contexts? Was there a magic day in our church’s history when we were required to deny our gifts at birth to continue participating in the catholic church…it is infact our diverse cultural contexts’ that is the true beauty fo the church and the witness that the church - in her best ability - has honoured Jesus by going to all the ends of the earth to spread the news - which is not based on our shrouded in Roman garbs…- it is a truth of our destiny as humans as Jesus told us…

Bruce
 
I am a Canadian Catholic and Traditional Catholicism is not too conservative for me. I find many values of this culture highly objectionable.
👍

Like what was said, Canada has taken - along with Europe - a very liberal turn, and has been going in one left direction ever since the 1950-60’s, maybe even the forties.

It’s been suttle, it started in the big towns, like in Toronto, Montreal and Winnipeg. They eventually grew to the entire country, leaving not even isolated communities in Newfoundland and Nova Scotia dissaffected.

Jansenism eventually died out, a it was replaced by the idea that “everyone is the same”. I remember hearing a few members in my own family saying that “Anglicans are just us without the Pope”. Of course, that’s what it seems from the outside, but we know that’s false. Sure, even our Parish Priests told us this false information!

But Canadian culture today is so varied, that I think you can’t even say “Canadian culture”. You look at Quebec - the culture there, is Francophone - and most similar to France’s culture. You look at Newfoundland, the culture is almost identical to Ireland and the UK. There’s also a Francophonie culture. Just look at the various traditions of the Aboriginal and First Nations tribes and races.

Most important, look at the faith of the members of the Church in Canada. Poor catechesis seems to be the norm in every parish, there are exceptions that I know of, and that you probably know of too. Also notice the Bishops’ Conference. They’ve published a hymnbook which while indeed including some nice traditional hymns and even Gregorian chant, they’re outnumbered by Marty “hugatree” Haugen and David Haas, and other like-minded compositions. There are heretical hymns included with the approval of our own shepherds. Almost every parish in Canada uses that hymnal, some along with the New English Hymnal, others along with the Glory and Praise. The hymns included, such as “Gift of Finest Wheat” only spread the notion that we are not receiving Christ – rather it’s just bread and wine. It accomplished nothing in spreading the truth and glory of the blessed Eucharist which the Church alone possesses! From the pulipt, we’re told to abandon the “ways of old”. Men aren’t answering the call, and thus, people who attend Mass aren’t receiving the right message, which can literally undo years of memorising the Catechism by heart.

I can’t tell you how many older people I have talked to who believe that they don’t have to attend Mass anymore, don’t believe in the true presence any more, think the Rosary and prayer is superstition – all because the culture has been sucked into the evil vacuum of moral relativism, progressivity, and liberalism.

But, fortunately, as of late – I have seen more faithful bishops, and excellent Priests. However that number is small, and they are far between. Nevertheless, the number is growing. Slowly, hopefully, surely. And the growth of traditional Catholics - Catholics who are faithful to the Church, who pray, members of groups such as Una Voce and the FSSP, are getting up there. I don’t know of one Latin Mass that doesn’t have more than at LEAST 20 in the fold.

All I can say is that I pray a lot, and trust that Satan will never prevail against the Church.
Oh, and keep my temper down when one of those posh, flipsy-whipsy university students with a 2 metre long black turtle neck and fluffy scarf tells me I’m a bigoted “downer”.🤷
 
👍

Like what was said, Canada has taken - along with Europe - a very liberal turn, and has been going in one left direction ever since the 1950-60’s, maybe even the forties.
Maybe you missed the results of the last federal election…
 
Maybe you missed the results of the last federal election…
:doh2:
Sorry…

I meant the culture, people’s thinking. Which when I think about it, isn’t just Canada, but the USA, Mexico, South Africa and just about the rest of the world as well.
 
I’m a Canadian Catholic and I don’t find it to be too conservative. But I won’t pretend that our country isn’t teeming with liberals - especially in Ontario, Quebec, and BC.
:doh2:
Sorry…

I meant the culture, people’s thinking. Which when I think about it, isn’t just Canada, but the USA, Mexico, South Africa and just about the rest of the world as well.
No, you didn’t miss anything. Our “conservative” political parties are still quite liberal on a world-scale. Notice all the fuss over the HHS mandate in the States? That has been the status quo here for many years now (100% tax-funded abortion and contraceptives in employment health plans). And our majority “conservative” government refuses to even touch those issues…
 
I’m a Canadian Catholic and I don’t find it to be too conservative. But I won’t pretend that our country isn’t teeming with liberals - especially in Ontario, Quebec, and BC.

No, you didn’t miss anything. Our “conservative” political parties are still quite liberal on a world-scale. Notice all the fuss over the HHS mandate in the States? That has been the status quo here for many years now (100% tax-funded abortion and contraceptives in employment health plans). And our majority “conservative” government refuses to even touch those issues…
True. A lot of the “Conservatives” are only conservative in the title.
 
True. A lot of the “Conservatives” are only conservative in the title.
You have to remember that in Canada often the support for a particular political party has nothing to do with what they actually stand for. In most cases what you hear is “Grandpa was born a Conservative and died a Conservative, Dad was born a Conservative and will die a Conservative and I was born a Conservative and will die a Conservative”, etc. It doesn’t matter who the candidate is or what he/she actually stands for, they’d vote for a moose as long as it was running for the party they were born into.

My dad made sure we weren’t raised that way, and it was drilled into us from a young age that you couldn’t vote ‘party’, you had to vote ‘candidate’. Most of my classmates were of the ‘born & die party’ ilk.
 
You have to remember that in Canada often the support for a particular political party has nothing to do with what they actually stand for. In most cases what you hear is “Grandpa was born a Conservative and died a Conservative, Dad was born a Conservative and will die a Conservative and I was born a Conservative and will die a Conservative”, etc. It doesn’t matter who the candidate is or what he/she actually stands for, they’d vote for a moose as long as it was running for the party they were born into.
The old joke in Alberta was that you could slap a Progressive Conservative label on a rock and it could get elected to the provincial legislature.

Then again, the PCs are probably going to get booted out of government next week. It wasn’t a bad run though, 41 straight years of government.
 
You have to remember that in Canada often the support for a particular political party has nothing to do with what they actually stand for. In most cases what you hear is “Grandpa was born a Conservative and died a Conservative, Dad was born a Conservative and will die a Conservative and I was born a Conservative and will die a Conservative”, etc. It doesn’t matter who the candidate is or what he/she actually stands for, they’d vote for a moose as long as it was running for the party they were born into.

My dad made sure we weren’t raised that way, and it was drilled into us from a young age that you couldn’t vote ‘party’, you had to vote ‘candidate’. Most of my classmates were of the ‘born & die party’ ilk.
Yep. Very true. It’s almost like the support is a family heirloom.
 
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