Traditional Catholicism with Charismatics

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What is the point of speaking in tounges if no one can understand what you are saying? The point of language is to communicate what you are thinking/feeling to other people; even animals have this ability, albeit in a much simpler form (Aristole would say that they have voices but no speech or something to that extent). But people who alledgely speak in tounges are just babbling with the hope that someone somewhere, possibly in some pocket universe, can understand you. Pentacost wasn’t a bunch of people writhing on the floor on the floor babbling, but the miracle of being able to understand everything everyone else was saying in their native language. Hence, I think that a REAL gift of tounges would be the ability to preach the gospel in a number of languages, as is/was the case with John Paul II and Benedict XVI.
 
lucybeebee said:
What is the point of speaking in tounges if no one can understand what you are saying? The point of language is to communicate what you are thinking/feeling to other people; even animals have this ability, albeit in a much simpler form (Aristole would say that they have voices but no speech or something to that extent). But people who alledgely speak in tounges are just babbling with the hope that someone somewhere, possibly in some pocket universe, can understand you. Pentacost wasn’t a bunch of people writhing on the floor on the floor babbling, but the miracle of being able to understand everything everyone else was saying in their native language. Hence, I think that a REAL gift of tounges would be the ability to preach the gospel in a number of languages, as is/was the case with John Paul II and Benedict XVI.
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That’s interesting. Did JPII have the gift of tongues?

Languages were always my worst subject at school.

“Tongues” is usually a sort of social release. In extreme cases a man will get down on all fours and bark like a dog. Middle class people who have got to keep up a professional image most of the rest of the time often like to be allowed to do something like that. You couldn’t imagine a lorry driver doing the same.

As for the value of the exercise, you can argue about that. However it quite clearly has no place in formal worship.
 
Malcolm_McLean said:
That’s interesting. Did JPII have the gift of tongues?

Languages were always my worst subject at school.

“Tongues” is usually a sort of social release. In extreme cases a man will get down on all fours and bark like a dog. Middle class people who have got to keep up a professional image most of the rest of the time often like to be allowed to do something like that. You couldn’t imagine a lorry driver doing the same.

As for the value of the exercise, you can argue about that. However it quite clearly has no place in formal worship.
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barking like a dog or babbling made up words that NO ONE on this planet understands is NOT the Gift of Tongues…
Gift of tongues (i.e., xenolalia, the ability to speak foreign languages unknown by natural reason)
 
Malcolm_McLean said:
“Tongues” is usually a sort of social release. In extreme cases a man will get down on all fours and bark like a dog. Middle class people who have got to keep up a professional image most of the rest of the time often like to be allowed to do something like that.
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Bingo

Ya know, I came from a Pentecostal denomination (one that kept the hysterics pretty hidden on Sundays, so I wasn’t privy for years what really went on). At one Thursday evening prayer service our pastor told us that we must become “baptized in the Holy Spirit”, so I went down the isle to get hands laid on me.

Nothing, absolutely nothing happened. Later, after the service, one of the assistant pastors came up to me very concerned 'cuz I didn’t get the Holy Spirit. He actually told me that I had to get it started, to actually start talking like an idiot to get the whole process going (like the Holy Spirit needs a kick start).

That was the beginning of the end of my Protestantism, and in particular, my sympathy for the whole Pentecostal and now “Catholic Pentecostal” movement.

If people really want to go to mass and not understand anything that is said they should go to a Latin mass and not bring their missal.
 
St. John of the Cross, the Mystical Doctor, would not be positive about the Charismatics if he were alive today.

If I remember correctly, he said that we cannot assume that all charismatic gifts are from the Holy Spirit. They could be sent from the father of lies to thwart our Ascent to God by filling us with pride. He said they could be from the Holy Spirit but we must take all of this with a big grain of salt.

So as a secular carmelite, I take the position of The Mystical Doctor. credo :gopray:
 
there have been actual cases of priests who have gone into the african interior to evangelize obscure natives, and the priest is given the gift of tongues whereby he can preach in their native language - sometimes a language that had no written form of means by which the priest could have learned it prior to encountering the people.

that’s the gift of tongues.

ppl will often defend their babbling silliness by quoting the passage about speaking in the tongues of angels. they’ll say that’s what they are speaking when they are speaking in tongues. i usually say, “how do you know. has an angel confirmed this for you?”

i highly recommend this article by jim likoudis for those who want to know how the charismatic movement is turning off the EO’s
 
Windmill said:
there have been actual cases of priests who have gone into the african interior to evangelize obscure natives, and the priest is given the gift of tongues whereby he can preach in their native language - sometimes a language that had no written form of means by which the priest could have learned it prior to encountering the people.

that’s the gift of tongues.

ppl will often defend their babbling silliness by quoting the passage about speaking in the tongues of angels. they’ll say that’s what they are speaking when they are speaking in tongues. i usually say, “how do you know. has an angel confirmed this for you?”

i highly recommend this article by jim likoudis for those who want to know how the charismatic movement is turning off the EO’s
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I truly hope that eventhough Damascus is banned, she is reading this post.
 
If you ask me, traditional Catholics are Charismatic. Where do people think the Church got Gregorian Chant, the beautiful Liturgy, the solid Catholic Faith?
 
dumspirospero said:
Yeah…but I mispelled sacrifice…I feel like a moron right now…thanks for the support though…I have been absent as of late, because I have been spending a great deal of time in the gym…trying to keep good on my new years resolution…trying to get back to being a lean mean fighting machine
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Like this? http://www.fisheaters.com/forumpix/duel.gif
This? http://www.fisheaters.com/forumpix/beatup.gif
or this? http://www.fisheaters.com/forumpix/jabs.gif

😃 😉
 
So then, on the whole, charismatics and traditionalists will not be able to lie down together in the meadow as lion and lamb? 🙂
Well alright, it answers my question at least.
What concerns me most about the traditionalist point of view is it runs the danger of limiting the Spirit’s action, as He is a gentleman, and won’t go against free will.
What conerns me most about the charismatic point of view is it runs the danger of being open to anything.

Which is a bigger danger I think.
But can a person really become open to the enemy without wanting to be at all? Saying “Come Holy Spirit” raising your arms and receiving a word of knowledge or a prophecy or tongues or whatever gift, and actually be accepting into your self a deception?

In all fairness, I’ve experienced little, and any healing (physically) I’ve had was directly from God.
But spiritual healing and deep calms have come to me through charismatic priests blessing me with holy oil and praying over me.

Besides though, Gregorian Chant is like the pinnacle of man-made music.
A beautiful TLM is perhaps the pinnacle of what we’re able to come up with for worship.
Other traditions are similiar.

BUT, what I always think of, is… yes, we want to honor God with our best, but He sees our heart and sees the beauty in our trying to please Him.
If the traditions help US, then good, we SHOULD keep them.
But if the Early Church didn’t have these things, how’d they become so Holy? Holier then modern day Catholics?

Letting the Spirit influence every facet of their personality, actions, and surroundings.

So I guess it begs the question… Where is the Church going?
In 20, 30 years, I think most Catholics will be Charismatic. (the dedicated Catholics that is) BUT, I think that’s going to bring the revival of our traditions!
The TLM IS Charismatic only if the person is open to the Spirit to move in ANY way.
If we examine our hearts, we’ll discover we aren’t really open to the Spirit to move in any way, because we’re not yet Saints.
We resist too much.

All in all though, Pentecostalism is dangerous. Without the Church’s Authority to discern, it’s going to get worse. People get too caught up in emotion are are easily deceived.
We truly need, ALL of us I would think, the charism of discernment of spirits.

And that’s all I have to say for now 🙂

God Bless,
Mordocai
 
I wonder why charismata have to be demonstrated at a Mass? I also wonder, how does a person know that babbling about or barking like a dog isn’t just a bunch of self-deception. To claim, “Let the Spirit move wherever He wants” is not to innoculate yourself from valid criticisms of seemlingly meanlingless, non-edifying gibberish. I think these are honest charges against “charismatics” that should not be explained away in a semi-Gnostic fashion.
 
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